Caliber Above 30-06

[Bart Solo]

I am in absolute agreement with the notion that if you can afford only one medium caliber centerfire rifle it should be a 30-06.  I have a 30-06 and I can afford another rifle. In fact over the next couple of years I intend to create a battery of rifles from a small bore .223 to a rifle above 30-06.  The chances of my hunting in Africa are next to none, but hunting elk or moose is not out of the realm of possibility. 

I have a lot of friends who have belted magnums--mostly 7MM Rem, but a few .300 and 338 win mag.  Most of my friends don't look to their magnum as their go to rifle.  They would rather shoot a 7-08, a 308, a 270 or a 30-06. In fact nearly all of them actually hunt with a 30-06. In my deer camp next weekend we are going to have 3 shooting 30-06 and one shooting black powder. I think my friends bought their belted magnums because they got magnumitus, but once they fired the apple of their eye, the love of big boomers evaporated. 

With all of that in mind I have been thinking about a 35 Whelen.  The only new factory bolt action I have been able to find is made by Ruger.  I have toyed with finding a used long action Remington 700 with a shot out barrel and having a new 35 caliber barrel fitted. 

Anybody have any real world experience with a 35 Whelen.  Is a 338 Win Mag a better choice?  Why? 

For the record, I reload.  I want something I can shoot regularly without risking the need for shoulder surgery and I am not looking for something with the muzzle blast of an artillery piece.   I would like to keep the barrel to no more than 24 inches.  Shorter if possible.

[mrloring]

What you need is a 338 Federal.  There are way more options for reloading 338 than 35's.  It will not punish you with recoil like some of the magnums.  I have been thinking about a 338 Federal as a larger game rifle.  338 Federal is currently chambered in Ruger, Sako, Tikka, and Kimber.  Getting and rebarreling a short action Savage, Stevens, Remington, or Mauser would also be an option. 

For a short barrel how about a 16 1/2" Ruger M77 Mark II Frontier         

[Bart Solo]

I have read a little about the 338 Federal and it looks like an interesting variant in the 308, 243, 7mm-08 family.  It has the advantage of being a short action round and probably would do well in a light short barreled rifle.  It's recoil is probably manageable.  I wonder if it is a flash in the pan.  It is only a few years old. 

[Tunaman]

Ron,
I went through the same thing last year. I wanted, not needed, a 33-35 cal something to play with. I chose to have a Savage 30-06 rebarreled to a 35 wheelen and I have been quite happy with my choice. I shot it Yesterday at the range but I have not yet taken a deer with it. That should change soon when Rifle season opens for us. The Wheelen will be my woods gun this year. Give the wheelen a shot, it is a great round.

[Swampman]

The .338 Federal is in the same class as the .30-06/.308.  For me the next step up would be the .375H&H because the in betweens are no better than the .30-06 IMO.

As much as I dislike the smaller magnums, I guess the .338 Winchester Magnum is the logical choice the average joe.

[Bart Solo]

A new Ruger 77 Hawkeye in either 35 Whelen or 338 Federal can be picked up for less than $600 which is cheaper than acquiring an action and installing a new barrel, although that might be more fun.  I am still trying to figure out how an up throated 308 can deliver so much performance. 

Swampman you might be right, but I think the 35 Whelen is a pretty potent cartridge on anything in North America.  Have you ever read Elmer Keith's story about using a 35 Whelen on a brown bear?  Took him three shots but the bear finally folded at his feet.  It had to, or otherwise he wouldn't have been able to write about it.

Oh, I am not in love with magnums either.  I want something I can shoot without rattling my scapula.

[Rangr44]

You could always go over to the Dark Side, with a .444 or .45-70 levergun. 

.

[Bart Solo]

Remington sells its autoloader chambered in the Whelen.   

[Dixie Dude]

I have a custom 35 Whelen.  I love it.  I can take 30-06 brass and run it through the Whelen die and make 35 brass.  If you max load the 35 with a Barnes TSX bullet at 225gr with Reloader 15 you can approach .338 mag ballistics.  30-06 brass is readily available every where.  This will work on all North American game as well as all African plains game.  The 165 gr TSX for 30-06 is a good round also.  The next step up for non-belted magnums is the 416 Rigby for Africa, unless you use the Ruger 375.  If you reload the non-belted magnums are better.  If you don't reload, the .375 HH is a good universal round. 

[Tunaman]

The .338 Federal is in the same class as the .30-06/.308.  For me the next step up would be the .375H&H because the in betweens are no better than the .30-06 IMO.

As much as I dislike the smaller magnums, I guess the .338 Winchester Magnum is the logical choice the average joe.

I don't necessarly agree with all of your statement but I do agree that of the smaller magnums, the 338 is the best of the breed. I also don't have a use for the 338 Federal, but just because I don't need or want one, does not meann that no one does. As far as the 375 being the next effective cartridge after the 30-06 , that is a bit silly. The Wheelen does not fall into the Magnum class and it does in fact have a use in the states. It is a great woods gun and it can effectivly push a heavier bullet than the 30-06 that produces larger enterance and exit holes. I would prefer to face a brown bear with a wheelen than an o6. Neither would be my first choice but given those tow choices, the wheelen would get my nod. Further, Ron clearly stated that he did not want the rifle, just that he wanted it. Ron, it is a fun caliber and easy to load. Try it, you will like it.

[RaySendero]

Ron,
Your 30/06 is fine for Elk and Moose!
But....I solved a very similar problem with a 9.3x62 Mauser shooting 286 Nosler Partitions.


That's an 8 Mauser on the left and a 9.3 (.366) on right:

The 9.3x62 will carry over 3,000 ft-lbs energy to 100 yards and do it with a bullet having a SD of over .300 (i.e. good penetration).

[deltecs]

CZ America has a 9.3x62 Mauser in factory barrels.  This is very similar to the .35 Whelen in performance but using a bit heavier bullets.  Taylor ranked the 9.3x62 nearly as effective as the .375 H&H old loading data on plains game and big enough for placed shots at elephant.  It is and would be a good NA big game rifle for moose, elk, bear, and bison.  My brother used a 9.3x62 on a 1750 lb Alaskan bison at 150yds, which fell to the shot.  Not dropped, but fell straight down.  He was using 296 gr TUG bullets.  I would not hesitate to use the 9.3x62 Mauser on anything in NA.

[Bart Solo]

I have read that the 9.3X62 Mauser is not well received in the US. What about brass and bullets.

[deltecs]

It is not known very well in the US, but not necessarily well received. Anyone who has used one, will tell you that it has more than enough umph for any game in NA.  Using 270 gr bullets at 2550 fps is a very potent round in anyone's book.  Bullets can be had from Speer, Nosler, Barnes, Woodleigh, A Square, and others in various weights from 225, 232, 250, 270, 286, 293, 300, and 310 grains.  Sectional density of the 232 gr is near .250, the same as 150 gr .308 bore.

[Coyote Hunter]

Ron –

There are a lot of good choices in calibers above .308.  Some are magnums, which can always be downloaded, others are not but they can be downloaded as well.  Here are the ones I would consider as a starting point:

.338 Federal
.338-06
.338 Ruger Compact Mag
.338 Win Mag
.35 Whelen
.375 Ruger

I’ve fired the .375 Ruger and recoil was surprisingly low.  For what you want, however, the Whelen is probably as good as anything. 

[Syncerus]

+1 on the 9.3x62 Mauser. Mine is an H&R 330 (FN action), rebarreled with a Lothar Walther 25.5" tube. I also had a Model 70-style safety and a Timney trigger installed. That said, if I knew what everything was going to cost, I probably would have just bought a CZ 550.

Lol.

The only down side is that the rig is a fairly low velocity set up. Even with 250 gr Barnes TSX bullets, your maximum velocity is going to be about 2600 fps, so no 400 yard shooting. I think Norma imports 232 gr bullets (or someone does), but I doubt they make the 9.3 a long range shooter.

The .338 WinMag is probably more practical, but the 9.3 is an absolute sweetheart to shoot. So far, I've only killed one hog (aprox 150 lbs) with mine, but it did the job nicely, as you might expect. I'm setting mine up for nighttime pig hunting (legal and encouraged where I live).

I do think that the .338 and the 9.3 are head and shoulders above the other options in the medium bore category.

[Bart Solo]

Ron –

There are a lot of good choices in calibers above .308.  Some are magnums, which can always be downloaded, others are not but they can be downloaded as well.  Here are the ones I would consider as a starting point:

.338 Federal
.338-06
.338 Ruger Compact Mag
.338 Win Mag
.35 Whelen
.375 Ruger

I’ve fired the .375 Ruger and recoil was surprisingly low.  For what you want, however, the Whelen is probably as good as anything. 

From what I have been reading the .338 Win Mag has great performance, but at the cost of being a belted Magnum.  The .338 Federal is an improvement on the 30-06 and has a lot going for it.  I wonder if it is going to be accepted by the public because while it is an improvement over the 30-06 the improvement isn't that great. I still wonder how they get all that power out of a necked up 308 case. Its great advantage is that it is a short action cartridge.  The funny thing is that it is one of the Sako and Tikka options. I don't think they have a true short action. They simply modify their very good long action. The 338-06 is a very interesting wildcat.  The 35 Whelen has been around for a long time.  Somebody is always building a rifle in 35 Whelen.  Right now Ruger has a 35 Whelen bolt action and Remington has a 35 Whelen Autoloader.  Last year Remington sold a 35 Whelen Model 700 CDL. It just keeps on hanging on.  Kind of a cult caliber. Its drawback is a lack of factory ammunition options, but I reload. There is no lack of 358 bullets, cases, and powder selections.   

I haven't researched it, but isn't the 338 Ruger Compact Mag one of those short fat magnums that reduces the number of rounds in your magazine from three or four to 2 or less.

Except for what you have  written I don't know anything at all about the 375 Ruger.  I guess I am going to do a little more reading. 

[kyelkhunter3006]

+1 on the 9.3x62 Mauser. Mine is an H&R 330 (FN action), rebarreled with a Lothar Walther 25.5" tube. I also had a Model 70-style safety and a Timney trigger installed. That said, if I knew what everything was going to cost, I probably would have just bought a CZ 550.

Lol.

The only down side is that the rig is a fairly low velocity set up. Even with 250 gr Barnes TSX bullets, your maximum velocity is going to be about 2600 fps, so no 400 yard shooting. I think Norma imports 232 gr bullets (or someone does), but I doubt they make the 9.3 a long range shooter.

The .338 WinMag is probably more practical, but the 9.3 is an absolute sweetheart to shoot. So far, I've only killed one hog (aprox 150 lbs) with mine, but it did the job nicely, as you might expect. I'm setting mine up for nighttime pig hunting (legal and encouraged where I live).

I do think that the .338 and the 9.3 are head and shoulders above the other options in the medium bore category.

The 9.3x62 used to be very popular in Africa.  I remember reading about one country that had a .375 minimum for dangerous game, but would allow an "experienced" hunter to use the 9.3x62.  RIFLE magazine has done a few articles on it in the last few years too.  It should be great if you're a handloader. 

I think that the .35 Whelen is a great round, one that is under-appreciated all the time.  Recoil is less than a .338 (yes, I've shot one, no I didn't really enjoy it), you can fit 4 rounds in the mag VS 3 round, no belt to mess with, it's got a standard .473" rim, and it'll fit in any action that's takes the 30-06 with no alterations.

As for "2600 fps, no 400 yard shooting", what's that velocity have to do with anything?     Most .308 match loads run about that speed, or lower, and are used for shots longer than 400 yds regularly.  Go to a BPCR shoot and tell those guys with their 45/70's and such that they shouldn't be shooting the 600 yard match, their velocity of 1300-1400fps or so is too slow.   

Velocity has nothing to do with range.  Know your own ability, the trajectory and and shoot as far as you are competent at.

[Swampman]

As long as you know exactly how far you are shooting, velocity isn't important.

[Syncerus]

It's safe to say that 9 out of 10 hunters could more easily kill a deer cleanly at 400 yards with a .257 Weatherby than a 9.3 Mauser.

Yes, it makes no difference to that tenth guy; he can hit what he's shooting at with anything he chooses to use.

[kyelkhunter3006]

I know for a FACT that it's safer to say that 9 out of 10 hunters wouldn't know how far 400 yards is if it slapped them in the face. 

Just this weekend one very experienced hunter (about 50 years worth) I know was talking about a certain part of his hay field being 450 yards from one point to another...then I took my rangefinder up there and showed him that it was actually 304 yards from his shooting position to the end of the field. Then we put up a target grid and shot at it so that he could see that his rifle would hit like I said it would.  And he wondered why he was missing the deer..... 

I tell everyone when we sight (they all use 30-06 or 270, so I tell them to zero around 2" high) in their rifles to hold in the hair, regardless of how far they think it is, unless they KNOW for sure what the range is.  I'm going to make it easy for them after the season, I'm going to go in the field and mark off 100 yds increments for them from the stands they usually hunt.

[Swampman]

Who makes a reasonably priced/accurate range finder?

[kyelkhunter3006]

I've got a Bushnell Yardage Pro 800 that I bought a couple of years ago for under $200, new, shipped, on ebay, when the retail was close to $300.  It'll range deer to almost 600 yds, trees out to 800 yds, and I've ranged barns/buildings as far as 1000 yds.

Bushnell has got the market wrapped up in the $300 and under price bracket.  If you want to spend more, both Nikon and Leupold offer great models that are under $500.  Then moving on up, you've got Leica and Swarovski.

I had both the Tasco and Simmons 800 yard models when they first came out years ago, and they were CRAP.  Same thing for the New Optik (I think that's it) models. 

For the price, I don't think that you can beat the Bushnell Sport model, it ranges trees out to 450yds, deer to 300 yds, and solid reflective objects out to almost 800 yds.  I've seen them for as little as $149 shipped. 

When I range, I don't range the animals.  I take a little notebook and range landmarks and noticeable objects and kind of make a little diagram that I memorize for hunting.

[RaySendero]

I have read that the 9.3X62 Mauser is not well received in the US. What about brass and bullets.

Don't know about "received" but they ain't hard to find:

Brass = http://www.grafs.com/metallic/829

Bullets = http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/department.asp?dept=%52%45%4C%4F%41%44%49%4E%47&dept2=%4A%41%43%4B%45%54%45%44%20%52%49%46%4C%45&dept3=%2E%33%36%36%20%44%49%41

Dies = http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/department.asp?dept=%52%45%4C%4F%41%44%49%4E%47&dept2=%44%49%45%53&dept3=%39%2E%33%58%36%32%4D%4D%20%4D%41%55%53%45%52

[Sweetwater]

My 8x57 has been a killing machine for everything from prairie dogs to elk, for 45 years. Still and all, I've picked up a 35Whelen barrel and hope the economy holds together long enough for me to get the rifle put together for next season. Not that it is the best, but simply because I want to. I surely don't need it, except to scratch the itch. Not that it will extend the range of my 356Win, it would, but it won't as the 356Win will kill anything I hunt at my ranges. I prefer to hunt for my game, not just find and shoot it where it happens to stand. Guiding my Dad to his last elk at 65 yards on the sagebrush mesas of Wyoming with a 30-06 was the greatest highlight of my hunts with him. Well, that and the only animal I ever shot when he was with me was an elk running away that he had cleanly missed! LOL!!

I believe NIB Remington 35Whelen rifles are still available, though you may have to dig for one. I had a dealer in Wyoming who was a master at locating out of production rifles. My 356Win was 5 years out of production when I bought it NIB.
Good luck with your project. Also, the 35Whelen is a piece of American history. That's enough for me.

Regards,
Sweetwater

[Coyote Hunter]

From what I have been reading the .338 Win Mag has great performance, but at the cost of being a belted Magnum. 

Although I find the belts to be unnecessary and aesthetically offensive, I’ve never had a problem reloading or shooting belted cases.

The .338 Federal is an improvement on the 30-06 and has a lot going for it.  I wonder if it is going to be accepted by the public because while it is an improvement over the 30-06 the improvement isn't that great. I still wonder how they get all that power out of a necked up 308 case. Its great advantage is that it is a short action cartridge.  The funny thing is that it is one of the Sako and Tikka options. I don't think they have a true short action. They simply modify their very good long action.

The advantage of the .338 Federal is the bullet diameter.  I really don’t see it as having an advantage over the .30-06 but rather being a step up from the .308 Win.

The 338-06 is a very interesting wildcat.

Have shot only one but have a buddy that uses one.  Great cartridge.

The 35 Whelen has been around for a long time.  Somebody is always building a rifle in 35 Whelen.  Right now Ruger has a 35 Whelen bolt action and Remington has a 35 Whelen Autoloader.  Last year Remington sold a 35 Whelen Model 700 CDL. It just keeps on hanging on.  Kind of a cult caliber. Its drawback is a lack of factory ammunition options, but I reload. There is no lack of 358 bullets, cases, and powder selections.   

Snooze, you lose.  Get one while they are available it that’s what you want.  It’s a great cartridge.

I haven't researched it, but isn't the 338 Ruger Compact Mag one of those short fat magnums that reduces the number of rounds in your magazine from three or four to 2 or less.

No, the .338 RCM is based on the .375 Ruger, shortened and necked down.  The case is the same diameter as the belt on belted mags so magazine capacity remains the same – 3 in the case of the Ruger rifles.

Except for what you have  written I don't know anything at all about the 375 Ruger.  I guess I am going to do a little more reading. 

Nice cartridge - .30-06 length, .375H&H power in a lighter rifle.

Don't know if brass is available as a component for the .338 RCM or .375 Ruger.  Might be a deterrent.

[Old English]

The 338 Federal. I converted one of my Savages to 338 Fed and it wasn't difficult or costly. It has been said here that the round may not last, true it may not. I form my brass from 308 and I think I should have a decent supply of brass for the forseeable future. I already own a 308, 30-06 and a 7Rm so I didn't need this caliber. It is however a much bigger bullet without big recoil and as such fills my needs well.

[Swampman]

The .338 Federal approximates the .30-06, as do most of the cartridges between the .30-06 & the 375H&H.

[Dixie Dude]

The 338-06 has a few more bullets available for reloading.  However the bullets are made for the 338 Win Mag velocities.  The 35 Whelen has plenty of bullets made for reloading and has factory loads also.  Swampman, some people want a larger diameter bullet to make a bigger hole through a larger animal than the 30-06.  Bigger holes mean bigger blood trails and bleeding out faster, especially in bear or moose.  They also want a rifle that is a little shorter and a little lighter to carry than a 375 HH.  The 35 Whelen and the 338-06 is the easiest to reload for of the larger diameter rounds, because of the availbility of brass.  The .338 Win Mag or the 35 Whelen is probably the best choice of rounds without going to the 375 HH.  The Ruger rounds are just now starting to take off.  However, the ammo is far more expensive, and the brass is not yet as readily available as the .338 or the 35 Whelen. 

[Bart Solo]

The advantage of a .338 Federal over a 30-06 is that you can use it to fire a relatively heavy bullet from a relatively short barreled, short action rifle while maintaining 30-06 like recoil.   In short the .338 Federal is a great cartridge for a light, handy woods rifle that might be asked to take an occasional 250-300 yard shot.   If you hunt from a tree stand over a beanfield you have little use for a .338 Federal but if you stalk elk and similar sized animals all over the back woods, the lighter weight and easier handling .338 Federal has some real advantages.  I am still trying to figure out how they get so much performance from a 308 case, but they do.  Federal is to be commended.  

Recoil and muzzle blast are real issues for a lot of hunters,  not because we aren't all manly men but because the natural response to a rifle that has excessive recoil and muzzle blast isn't to down load practice rounds. The natural response is not to practice at all. Lots of hunters have magnums gathering dust in their safes.  They prefer their 7mm-08 or their 257 Roberts for deer and their 30-06 for Elk. Anyway the real potential of a belted magnum isn't realized until the barrel length is about 26 inches.  In a long action the disadvantages of a 26 inch barrel in the woods are obvious.

My worry about the 338 Federal is a lack of manufacturer support.   It is really a very good cartridge that might lose out because it wasn't invented by Remington or Ruger.