Caliber Above 30-06

[Swampman]

I am still trying to figure out how they get so much performance from a 308 case, but they do.

With a powder we can't get unfortunately.

[jro45]

The next one up is the 300 Win Mag. Then the 338 Win Mag.

The 300 kicks a little more than the 30/06 then of course the 338 if not held tight kicks

the most out of the three of them.

[yooper77]

I know some people that also fell victim of the magnum rifle cartridges hype and greatly regret it and choose smaller for deer hunting.

I would suggest the 35 Whelen or 338 A-Square, since you can make both from 30-06 Springfield brass.

If you want a shorter action the 358 Winchester and 338 Federal are also good choices, since you can make both from 308 Winchester brass.

All offerings have good supply of 358 or 338 caliber bullets available for the handloader.
-The 35 Whelen and 358 Winchester can also be downloaded for pistol bullet use, something the 338 A-Square and 338 Federal cannot offer.

yooper77

[Dixie Dude]

I forgot about using the .357 mag pistol bullets in the 35 Whelen.  Makes for a good plinker and varmit rifle. 

[rickt300]

There is not a greater variety of bullets that work well in the 338 Federal than you can get for the 35 Whelen. In fact this cartridge has a limited variety of bullets that work well with it's short overall length and it's moderate velocities. As a matter of truth the 338 Federal does not do well with bullets any heavier than you can push from a 30-06. The 35 Whelen is far more versatile with a bunch of good 250 grain designs that can be pushed near 2600 fps and the 225 grain bullets can get over 2700 fps. There are also many bullets you can load down for deer loads that will expand easily and penetrate well. The Whelen's recoil is also less than you would expect.

[Hank08]

Not a nickels worth of difference between the .338 Fed and the .358 Win. and the .338
will probably end up the same way, dead.  Either one is OK but neither is as good as the 338/06 or the .35 Whelen .  A short action makes your gun 1" shorter but any of these calibers are efficient with short barrels so a regular action with a short barrel works just fine.  I have several .35 Whelens and one of my favorites (built about 25 yrs. ago on a DWM mauser action) has an 18" barrel and is of Scout rifle configuration with a 2X Leupold scope, very accurate, light and easy to carry. Great cast bullet shooter too, My vote would be for the Whelen.
Hank08

[Bart Solo]

For a whole lot of reasons I have pretty much come to the conclusion that the 35 Whelen is the caliber for my rifle above 30-06.  It looks to fill the niche above 30 caliber and below 375 very, very well. It doesn't cost an arm and a leg to feed.  While there might only be one or two rounds manufactured, the array of bullets and components available to a reloader at low cost is impressive. It is relatively low recoil when compared to its magnum competition.  It can be loaded into a short barreled rifle. That is why Remington sells it in their autoloader. I am told that the 250 grain bullet (not available in the 338 Federal) hits like a Mack Truck. It looks like a great round for anything this side of brown bear and buffalo as long as the shot is less than 250-300 yards.  Two hundred yards is about as far as I want to shoot anyway.

Now how to tell my wife.

[mannyrock]

Ron,

   You have made the right choice with the .35 Whelen.  Never choose a magnum just to get a magnum. The .35 Whelen will do all that you will ever need it to do.

    By the way, I think Grices Sporting Goods is selling a special run of Remington 7600 pumps in .35 Whelen.  And, whenever I am at a large gunshow, I almost always see a Remington 700 classic in .35 Whelen.

Regards,

Mannyrock

[Dixie Dude]

You can also buy an old 8mm Mauser and rebarrel it to 35 Whelen.  Ruger and Remington have runs in them every so often.  They also make a 310 grain bullet for the 35.  Mine is an old custom Mauser that was well taken care of.   

[Dixie Dude]

There is also the 411 Hawk cartridge.  It is actually a 280 Rem cartridge necked up to .411.  The 280 brass is a little longer than the 30-06.  This increases the case capacity slightly.  Hawk also makes a .375 Cartridge from the same brass.  They sell the dies and brass, but I don't have a link right now.  The .35 Whelen is more readily available though. 

[Bart Solo]

You can also buy an old 8mm Mauser and rebarrel it to 35 Whelen.  Ruger and Remington have runs in them every so often.  They also make a 310 grain bullet for the 35.  Mine is an old custom Mauser that was well taken care of.   

I know that Ruger is actively selling them and I think Remington has a 700 CDL.  Of course Remington is selling them in their model 750 Woodsmaster.

I am actually most intrigued by the idea of finding an old standard action and having it rebarreled.  I know that is probably the more expensive way to go, but it would be a nice project.

[teddy12b]

I’ve only owned one rifle that was bigger than a 30-06 and that was a 300RUM.  I bought it years ago because I thought I was going to get a chance to go elk hunting with it.  The hunt never worked out and the rifle never shot worth a darn.  Then again the 7# Remington BDL had so much recoil it had to be put in a rest to be shot.  I sold that rifle and every time I get the idea of trying the caliber my shoulder starts to hurt just thinking about it.  

Since then I bought a 30-06 and have done some very accurate long range shooting with it and it’s the limit of comfortable recoil for me.

If I were to get a bigger gun than a 30-06, I would just make sure it’s as common of a caliber as it can be.  Odd ball calibers just tend to be more of a hassle.

[Bart Solo]

You might have sold your 300 RUM too soon.  Remington is now selling the 300 RUM as the only rifle you will ever need. They claim they now have three different levels of ammunition simulating a 30-06, a 300 win mag, and a full power 300 RUM.  Pick your ammunition based on the game you are hunting.  I think it is a lot of marketing hype. 

[teddy12b]

I still think it's a great caliber for the right reason.  When looking at the charts on what that caliber is capable of donig I am always amazed.  I wouldn't mind getting another one, but it'd have to be in a very heavy rifle.  That light weight bdl was brutual.  Remington makes a police model in 300 RUM that might be ok if weight was added to it.

The other problem with that 300RUM is the cost of ammo.  That caliber is what got me started in reloading. 

The best part about my 30-06 is that I have been able to safely load it to 300WM velocities.  I'm pretty happy with my 30-06 and doubt I'll get anything bigger than that.

[Bart Solo]

I agree the 300 RUM numbers are stunning, but you said it yourself. Your shoulder hurts when you think about buying another.  The problem with all the magnums is they are just unpleasant to shoot at the range. Shooting at the range is important for any rifleman.  Sighting in using a lead sled isn't practicing.  If you can't hit the target the stunning numbers don't mean a thing. 

[teddy12b]

I agree the 300 RUM numbers are stunning, but you said it yourself. Your shoulder hurts when you think about buying another.  The problem with all the magnums is they are just unpleasant to shoot at the range. Shooting at the range is important for any rifleman.  Sighting in using a lead sled isn't practicing.  If you can't hit the target the stunning numbers don't mean a thing. 

Exactly why my 30-06 gets a lot of range time.  I also had a lead sled just because of the 300RUM when I had it.

[Brithunter]

Hmmm for such a need I simply pick up my 9.3x57 Mauser and of course it uses the effcient Mauser case on which of course the much vaunted 06 was based  .

Having shot this rifle at 300 yards I was surprised how little drop it had for such a large bullet.

[Swampman]

And with so little powder capacity.

[deltecs]

I still think it's a great caliber for the right reason.  When looking at the charts on what that caliber is capable of donig I am always amazed.  I wouldn't mind getting another one, but it'd have to be in a very heavy rifle.  That light weight bdl was brutual.  Remington makes a police model in 300 RUM that might be ok if weight was added to it.

The other problem with that 300RUM is the cost of ammo.  That caliber is what got me started in reloading. 

The best part about my 30-06 is that I have been able to safely load it to 300WM velocities.  I'm pretty happy with my 30-06 and doubt I'll get anything bigger than that.

I am really curious as how you determined that loading your 30-06 to 300 WM velocities are safe.  I've not found a reloading manual that even comes close to factory 300 WM posted velocity with the same bullet.  And it certainly will not approach 300 WM handload velocities in the reloading manuals, as the 300 WM has SAAMI spec of 54,000 cup pressure limit, while the 30-06 in the manuals has a SAAMI pressure spec of 50,000 cup.  The 300WM has a larger powder capacity, fires at higher pressures with the same bullets as the 06 and velocities are safely the same?  I wouldn't consider this to be safely loading the 06 to the same velocity of the 300WM.

[Coyote Hunter]

...
The best part about my 30-06 is that I have been able to safely load it to 300WM velocities.  I'm pretty happy with my 30-06 and doubt I'll get anything bigger than that.

Just what, pray tell, is the magic load?

[Swampman]

A Remington 700 Classic in .35 Whelan would be the one I'd have to have if I were going to get one.

[Bart Solo]

A Remington 700 Classic in .35 Whelan would be the one I'd have to have if I were going to get one.

Beyond the obvious fact that you like Remington better than anything else,  what is wrong with the Ruger? 

[Swampman]

The Remington is more accurate, the receiver is machined from solid steel, and I think it's more attractive.

[Bart Solo]

To be honest, I agree with you.

[Brithunter]

And with so little powder capacity.

Well I cannot help it if Paul Mauser got it right  

Not long after acquiring this Husqvarna model 46 rifle I attended our clubs monthly shoot which that month was on the military Ash Complex and we were put on Ash #3 I seem to recall which is a 600 yard range. Being a newly acquired rifle I had several different loads to try out but the others decided they wanted to shoot at 200 & 300 yards for some reason not ideal for a first try out but it was what I was limped with so we set up at 200 yards. Targets were also not ideal being Figure 11 the military charging man so I got a 2" square of white patches stuck in the centre to give a positive aiming point. The rifle at that time had a small Meopta 3x scope fitted and I had loads with these bullets to try:-

Hand swaged 180 grn RN (from Norman Clark of Rugby who I obtained the rifle from)
195 grn S&B flat points
232 grn Norma semi spitzers
246 grn RWS Cone Points
270 Grn Speer
286 grn S&B RN

   Without looking at my notes I cannot recall off hand what powders and charges were used but I do know there were several different powders used. The surprise came when I shot them all using the same POA and ALL the bullets made one composite group of around 6"   and seeing how there was over 100 grains of weight difference from lightest to heaviest this surprised me but not as much as the results from 300 yards.

  After moving back to the 300 yards position, Ash is a Gallery range, I again shot all of the weights on the same target, we had markers so the fall of each shot was marked   and all except the 286 gran bullet made a slightly larger composite group the 286 grain bullet dropped out the bottom by about 3" the rest made a group of around 8" just a bit lower on the target as I used the same POA as I recall.

One of the best bullets proved to be the RWS 246 grain Cone Point but these are almost impossible to get here and in fact I picked these up on a day trip to France the 9.3mm being popular for Boar shooting   there. As I had managed to acquire a bulk lot of the Norma 232 grain bullets ( well I was told they are Norma bullets but they came in a brown card unmarked box holding around 400+ it is what I have been working with even though it has not shown as good accuracy potential in my rifle as the RWS Cone Point but we must work with what we have. In all honesty I was expecting the bullets to drop almost to the bottom of the target at 300 yards this beign a mild mannered cartridge with a sedate velocity however it seems to perform a lot better than one would think it should.

Now my particular rifle has very deep grooves, they measure 0.008" deep which makes groove size of the bore 0.371" and not 0.366" which is claimed to be the norm but is 0.355" across the lands so I thought to try some paper patched bullets and used a couple of Lyman moulds on 0.358" diameter with mixed results and it needs more experimenting and varying the lead hardness. Im my little experiment I did achieve 2100fps with a pure lead bullet of 243 grains however another powder than that used would proove benificial.

He...He   I see swampy is at it again

The Remington is more accurate, the receiver is machined from solid steel, and I think it's more attractive.

Ahh the Remington 700 uses a bit of pipe or tube if you like and that's more attractive? and that's for cheapness and ease of manufacture 

Edit to correct miss-spelling

[teddy12b]

I still think it's a great caliber for the right reason.  When looking at the charts on what that caliber is capable of donig I am always amazed.  I wouldn't mind getting another one, but it'd have to be in a very heavy rifle.  That light weight bdl was brutual.  Remington makes a police model in 300 RUM that might be ok if weight was added to it.

The other problem with that 300RUM is the cost of ammo.  That caliber is what got me started in reloading. 

The best part about my 30-06 is that I have been able to safely load it to 300WM velocities.  I'm pretty happy with my 30-06 and doubt I'll get anything bigger than that.

I am really curious as how you determined that loading your 30-06 to 300 WM velocities are safe.  I've not found a reloading manual that even comes close to factory 300 WM posted velocity with the same bullet.  And it certainly will not approach 300 WM handload velocities in the reloading manuals, as the 300 WM has SAAMI spec of 54,000 cup pressure limit, while the 30-06 in the manuals has a SAAMI pressure spec of 50,000 cup.  The 300WM has a larger powder capacity, fires at higher pressures with the same bullets as the 06 and velocities are safely the same?  I wouldn't consider this to be safely loading the 06 to the same velocity of the 300WM.

Back when I was trying to find out what load shot the best in my 30-06 I loaded up some 168gr Barnes tipped triple shocks using imr4350, lapua brass, and remington primers.  I started with what was safe in the books and went up in .5 grain steps.  I stopped loading rounds when I got to 59.5 gr of imr4350 because I couldn't get any more powder & a bullet into the case.  I fired the cartridges expecting to find pressure signs soon after passing the max loads in the sierra book.  I went all the way up the 59.5gr loads without any pressure signs.  I even asked another guy at the range if he could tell the difference between my hottest round and the "safe" round from the book. 

The 168gr bullets were cronographed 10 feet from the muzzle and were 3000 fps.  My rifle has a 24" barrel and that may be helping me out too.  In any case it's not to hard to find reloading data for 168gr bullets from a 300wm around 3000fps.

I also did the same experiment using 168gr matchkings and didn't get any pressure signs either. 

I haven't loaded those bullets or that load since the experiment because they are expensive and my rifle groups the tightest with 168gr matchkings with 53.5gr of imr4350.  <- That's the real magic load.

*Disclaimer: My rifle was a brand new rifle in great mechanical condition.  Work up your loads safely using information out a repuatble reloading book.

[Coyote Hunter]

The Remington is more accurate, the receiver is machined from solid steel, and I think it's more attractive.

Any differences in inherent accuracy, if any, are negated by the much greater differences in individual rifles.  I have both Ruger and Remington rifles and so far the Rugers have shot the smallest groups.

The Ruger receiver is a steel casting.  I have yet to hear of a Ruger receiver blowing up.  The bolt is a one-piece casting as well and, unlike the two-piece Remingtons bolts, I have never heard of a Ruger bolt handle coming off.

The attractiveness of a firearm is a personal judgment call.  The Remingtons are nice, but some, such as myself, prefer the lines of the Ruger rifles.

[WyoStillhunter]

Responding to the original post:

There are lots of good examples above and everyone makes their case for their choice.  I will simply say that over the years I ended up with the battery listed below.  Along the way I gave a .280 Rem. M700 Mountain Rifle and my early '60s M700 ADL 30-06 to my son.

Now my boltgun battery looks like this...
Rem. 513S, .22lr, Weaver K4-W
Rem. 700 Classic, .223 Rem., Leupold Rifleman 2-7X
Rem. 700 Classic, 6.5X55 SE, Weaver K3
Rem. 700 Classic, 35 Whelen, Weaver K2.5

I have taken antelope, whitetail, elk, and mountain lion with the Whelen.  It is a very useful cartridge.  In actual field performance the '06 and Whelen have a lot of overlap.  That's why I dropped down to the 6.5X55 for my intermediate caliber.

[Brithunter]

Hmmm my posts are long enough without a listing of my bolt actions but let's say they start at .22LR and end at .458 Win mag with some chamberings like .22LR and 270 win with 4 of each and i would ahve more of the larger bore however the police think and say I already have too many 

[Dixie Dude]

The Ruger also has a Mauser type claw extractor for control round feeding.  The Rugers bolt can be unscrewed and the spring and firing pin cleaned without any special tools.  You have to buy a special tool to unscrew a Remington bolt.  I also have both.  My Ruger 308 shoots Remington 150 gr Corelok bullets in a dime at 100 yards.  My Remy will not.  With Ruger you can put it on the middle safety which locks the trigger but allows you to cycle a round.  Full safety locks both the bolt and the trigger.  Ruger has integral scope mounts in which my 308 has gone for over 10 years without having to adjust my scope.  I have heard of lemon Rugers, but my 308 is a very good one.  Came that way right out of the box.