Caliber Above 30-06

[yooper77]

My Ruger M77 MKII in 270 Winchester gives me the same stellar performance as your 308 Winchester.
-Wears a Leupold Vari-X II in 3-9x40mm with the ruger rings and delivers MOA with 150 grain bullets loaded with IMR-4831.

Exceeding manufacture's maximum powder charges are unsafe practices even if you cannot see high pressure signs.

yooper77

[Coyote Hunter]

Back when I was trying to find out what load shot the best in my 30-06 I loaded up some 168gr Barnes tipped triple shocks using imr4350, lapua brass, and remington primers.  I started with what was safe in the books and went up in .5 grain steps.  I stopped loading rounds when I got to 59.5 gr of imr4350 because I couldn't get any more powder & a bullet into the case.  I fired the cartridges expecting to find pressure signs soon after passing the max loads in the sierra book.  I went all the way up the 59.5gr loads without any pressure signs.  I even asked another guy at the range if he could tell the difference between my hottest round and the "safe" round from the book.  

It is not uncommon for pressure limits to be exceeded long before traditional pressure signs begin to exhibit themselves.  This has been proven over and over by various tests.  The absence of “pressure signs” does not guarantee the absence of excessive pressure.

That said, Hodgdon lists a max charg of 58.0g IMR4350 with Hornady 168g bullets, at a pressure of only 57,800PSI.  Your 59.5g load may not have been dangerous but it was probably max or pushing the limits thereof.

The 168gr bullets were cronographed 10 feet from the muzzle and were 3000 fps.  My rifle has a 24" barrel and that may be helping me out too.  In any case it's not to hard to find reloading data for 168gr bullets from a 300wm around 3000fps.
…

You’re going to compare apples to oranges and accept the results?  Thanks, but I don’t.  Its not hard to find .30-06 reloading data for 168g bullets in the 2800fps range or even slower.  If I chose the data I can even find .308 Win loads that exceed the velocity of .30-06 loads.  Coupled with your chosen data, does that then mean that the .308 Win can be safely loaded to .300 WM velocities?  No.

My first loads for my .300 WM were .308 Win equivalents and I also created some .30-06 equivalent loads.  That does not mean I can safely load either my .308 Win or .30-06 to match the velocities of my top .300 WM loads.

Using barrels of equal length, the .30-06 can push a 165-168g bullet to about 3000fps while a .300 WM can safely push the same bullet to almost 3300fps.  (Nosler 6th shows 3002fps and 3290fps respectively, although I’d have to double-check the .30-06 barrel length Nosler used.)

The point is that you cannot overcome physics – other factors being equal, the .300’s larger case capacity allows larger amounts of slower burning powder and higher velocity.  The .30-06 CANNOT safely match the .300WM in terms of velocity.

[teddy12b]

You’re going to compare apples to oranges and accept the results?

I don't get where I'm comparing apples to oranges.  The same bullet can be used in either caliber, most 300wm barrels are 24" some are shorter some are longer, and the speed it leaves the barrel is what it is.

I'm not trying to pass my 30-06 off as a 300wm, but it can get into that range.  I appreciate the notes from noslers book, but lets compare apples to apples by using the barnes data.  Barnes puts a note inside a box of their bullets saying you can load them with an extra grain of powder (maybe 1.5 grain I don't remember and haven't read it in a while.)

I have never read that that pressure limits can be exceeded without any signs.  I paid very close attention looking for pressure signs when I did this little experiment.  I did this little experiment on one occasion and haven't loaded anything but the accuracy load since.  I had planned on using the max load if I ever got a chance to go elk hunting or something of that nature.  Could you point me in the direction of the information about exceeding pressure limits without any signs of it?  I'm not saying your wrong, I'm just saying that I've never read it yet and I will have no problem admitting I'm wrong and thanking people for keeping me and my rifle safe.


*Sorry for starting to hijack the thread, for the pressure discussion go here.
http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,156282.new.html#new

[mcwoodduck]

I had the same question four or five years ago.
I own a couple of 308's and a 30-06 and started to look at a 300 WM for elk hunting.  With a 180 grain bullet the 308, 30-06 and the 300 Win were all about 100 to 150 feet per second faster than the next and all shot the same bullet.  I also looked at the 300 WSM and 300 H&H and again all not too much faster than 308 or 06.  A freind of mine reloads his 300 Win with 180 grain bullets under 30-06 speeds for deer and elk and has not had a problem hitting or killing them.
I went to the 338 Win Mag.  It is that much bigger than all the 300's in bullet size and power.  Actually out does 375 H&H out at 200+ yards.  I did get a 375 later when looking for a second 338 and came across too good of a deal.  I like my 375 as well.  Recoil is a little stiffer off the bench but off hand it is a shove.
Lot's of loaded ammo to choose from in the 338 and a wide choice of rifles to pick from.  I thought of the 35 Whelan and there only two factory loads for it and I have not seen a box in a store in a while when making my desicion.  Same went for the 338-06 and 9.3X62.
The 7mm is a neat round but does not offer a lot over the 30-06, you have only a bigger case and a .284 bullet instead of a .308.
I am very happy with my 338.  Recoil is about the same as 30-06 with 180's.  I shoot the Remington 225 grain soft points well with it.  So far it has gone elk hunting twice and deer once but has only killed a 175 pound wild boar.  Meat damage was minimal.  neat hole in about the size of my pinky and neat hole out the size of my thumb with no blood shot meat jelly around either hole.

[Coyote Hunter]

The 168gr bullets were cronographed 10 feet from the muzzle and were 3000 fps.  My rifle has a 24" barrel and that may be helping me out too.  In any case it's not to

You’re going to compare apples to oranges and accept the results?

I don't get where I'm comparing apples to oranges.  The same bullet can be used in either caliber, most 300wm barrels are 24" some are shorter some are longer, and the speed it leaves the barrel is what it is.

The apples to oranges comes in when you compare .30-06 loads you admit are above max  per Sierra with .300 WM loads from other sources and in particular sources that do not list the fastest .300WM velocities.

Apples to apples would be more like the Nosler 6th which shows 165-168g bullets at 3002fps from the .30-06 and 3290fps from the .300WM.  That’s a 288fps difference, which in my book is fairly significant.

I'm not trying to pass my 30-06 off as a 300wm, but it can get into that range.  I appreciate the notes from noslers book, but lets compare apples to apples by using the barnes data.  Barnes puts a note inside a box of their bullets saying you can load them with an extra grain of powder (maybe 1.5 grain I don't remember and haven't read it in a while.)

To get apples to apples you need to compare Barnes bullets in both cartridges.  If we compare max data from Barnes #4 for the 165-168g bullets and IMR4350:

2845fps = .30-06, 57.5g IMR4350
3125fps = .300 WM, 70.4g IMR4350

Or, if you just want to compare the fastest Barnes loads for the 165-168g bullets:
2869fps = .30-06, 55.5g Ramshot Big Game
3163fps = .300 WM, 74.0g Reloder 19

I have never read that that pressure limits can be exceeded without any signs.  I paid very close attention looking for pressure signs when I did this little experiment.  I did this little experiment on one occasion and haven't loaded anything but the accuracy load since.  I had planned on using the max load if I ever got a chance to go elk hunting or something of that nature.  Could you point me in the direction of the information about exceeding pressure limits without any signs of it?  I'm not saying your wrong, I'm just saying that I've never read it yet and I will have no problem admitting I'm wrong and thanking people for keeping me and my rifle safe.

*Sorry for starting to hijack the thread, for the pressure discussion go here.
http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,156282.new.html#new

Such results have been published several times by different sources.  Unfortunately I don’t have any links but perhaps a Google search could turn up an article.
You don’t need 3000fps loads to go elk hunting.  Last year I took two elk with my Ruger .30-06 pushing 165-68g bullets around 2850fps.  Both dropped at the shot and, although both got back up, neither went more than a couple steps.  This year I hunted with my Remington .30-06 with a similar load.  Accuracy and the ability to place the bullet well far outweigh differences in velocity.

[teddy12b]

"The apples to oranges comes in when you compare .30-06 loads you admit are above max  per Sierra with .300 WM loads from other sources and in particular sources that do not list the fastest .300WM velocities."

I'm not trying to compare the fastest 30-06 to the fastest 300wm or say they are the same, but I'm trying to get the point across that a 30-06 safely loaded with more powder will get into the range of a 300wm.  Obviously a maxed out 300wm will send the same bullet faster.  One advantage of reloading is being able to get the best performance out of my 30-06 and that puts it in the middle range of what a regular 300wm can do with off the shelf ammo.  I'm not trying to turn one rifle into another, just trying to get the best out of it that I can.

Such results have been published several times by different sources.  Unfortunately I don’t have any links but perhaps a Google search could turn up an article.
You don’t need 3000fps loads to go elk hunting.  Last year I took two elk with my Ruger .30-06 pushing 165-68g bullets around 2850fps.  Both dropped at the shot and, although both got back up, neither went more than a couple steps.  This year I hunted with my Remington .30-06 with a similar load.  Accuracy and the ability to place the bullet well far outweigh differences in velocity.

I didn't see the article you're talking about when I did the google search, whenever you get time could post a link to that source?  I don't think I need the 3000fps to go elk hunting, I just think it'd help dumby proof doping the wind in case I have to shoot a farther shot.  My grandpa got one with his 30-30 so I got a hunch my 30-06 will if I ever get the chance.  Congrats on the two elk last season by the way.  What type of bullet were you using?

[Coyote Hunter]

I'm not trying to compare the fastest 30-06 to the fastest 300wm or say they are the same, but I'm trying to get the point across that a 30-06 safely loaded with more powder will get into the range of a 300wm. 

I imagine I could download my .300 Win Mag to the same velocities I get out of my .30-30, but I would never come to the conclusion that the .30-30 could get “into the range of a 300wm”. 

Obviously a maxed out 300wm will send the same bullet faster.  One advantage of reloading is being able to get the best performance out of my 30-06 and that puts it in the middle range of what a regular 300wm can do with off the shelf ammo.  I'm not trying to turn one rifle into another, just trying to get the best out of it that I can.

That was my point.  I, too, often try to get the most out of what a cartridge can do, whether it is my .30-30, .308 Win, my three .30-06s (only two of which can use the same max loads), my .300WM or something else.  Nothing wrong with that.

Winchester 180g PowerPoint ammo runs 3083fps in my .300 Win Mag – wouldn’t want to try that in my .30-06s.

I didn't see the article you're talking about when I did the google search, whenever you get time could post a link to that source?  I don't think I need the 3000fps to go elk hunting, I just think it'd help dumby proof doping the wind in case I have to shoot a farther shot.  My grandpa got one with his 30-30 so I got a hunch my 30-06 will if I ever get the chance.  Congrats on the two elk last season by the way.  What type of bullet were you using?

The bullet I was using last year was a 165g North Fork.  This year we were using Barnes 168g TTSX.  Took an antelope with one in September and was impressed. 

If I can find a link I’ll post it.

[AtlLaw]

I hate to resurrect an old thread, but I'm just getting caught up on my reading and this is a subject close to my heart!     OH!    Not the 30/06 - 300 Mag prattle, the poster's question!   

His query is one I've commented on before so, for the sake of brevity, I'll paraphrase, kinda... maybe... I'll try...  ,  my response.

-Never been a belted magnum fan, only own one - a 300 WM.  It taught me one thing, why push the envelope trying to squeeze every last FPS out of a given cartridge, i.e. 30/06.  If velocity is that important to you, just buy a bigger cased cartridge in that caliber, i.e. 300 WM.
-I like medium bores.  Got a 358 Win, 338/06 (my pet) and a 35 Whelen (love it).
-I may cobble up a 338 Fed if I find a suitable action laying around... just because.     I will refrain from trying to understand why the Fed is everybodies darlin' while the 338/06 is forgotten...    but I may get a Fed to show that I'm an equal opportunity bigot. 
-for deer hunting with the 338/06 I use the (discontinued) Nosler 180 BT's.  I run them about 2750 fps w/MOA accuracy.
-for deer hunting with the 35 Whelen this year I'm using 180 gr. Speers at 2800 FPS. Consistently puts 3 touching at 100 yds.
-Both the 338/06 and 35 Whelen have plenty of throttle left with these bullets; published to be up there right around 3000 fps. Never saw the need for that speed, but if it produces wood for you, imagine one a them long and light (for caliber) unleaded, tipped, banded, condor safe things in 33 or 35 cal @ 3K! 
-If the need for more momentum ever arises I can go up and up and up on bullet weight from a large selection of projectiles in either caliber.
-I have tons of 30/06 brass.  No need to buy that expensive magnum stuff.
-IMO and as an aside, the 700 CDL (35 Whelen) is one of the finest looking production rifles out there.  The 338/06 may be more problematic, mine is built on an '03 Springfield action.
Now of course need never enters into it, but either of these cartridges fills any void that may exist between the old '06 and the 375 H&H/Ruger.  Of course the 9.3x62 is a grand old cartridge and I'd take one in a heartbeat, but I think you made a wise/best decision with the Whelen.

[deltecs]

AtlLaw just presented my opinions perfectly.  There isn't anything in NA that I would not hunt with a 30-06 using the appropiate bullets and hunting ethically.  However, I do think the 338-06 and 35 whelen are better rounds for moose and big bear.  I don't see the need for super fast velocities and muzzle blast, so if one needs more gun, get a bigger bore not necessarily a magnum.

[buckfever 1]

I have a CZ 550 FS in a 9.3x62.  I have killed a 400lb Black Bear with it fell to the shot using 286grn. Privi-Partisan ammunition for around 18.00 for a box of 20 from Graf. and Sons.  It is a 20.5 barrel with Full Stock, accurate as hell, and very comfortable to carry in the brush.  Looks very cool and it is the Moose, Bear, and Elk gun in my battery.  I will never get to Africa but If by chance I am wrong I have the necessary weapon for all but Dangerous Game.  I have reloaded some 286. grn Nosler Partitions for Moose and Elk but I am sure the Privi-Partisan lead core bullet would work.  They both shoot to the same area of impact.  I have also loaded some Barnes TSX 250 grn for Brown Bear if I ever get to hunt them.  Awesome caliber, and looking gun.  Doesn't kick hardly anymore than a 200 grn bullet in a 30-06.  Not very expensive to shoot.  This gun is sub-moa.  Don't use it near as much as my Tikka T-3 30-06 and 6.5x55.  Highly reccomend the Gun and caliber.
Buckfever

[Sweetwater]

I guided my Dad on 4 elk hunts and he tagged 4 elk. The rifle was his Interarms Mark X barreled by Bill Morrison of Bangor and later Bradford, Maine. The chamber was cut tight for modern factory ammunition and the barrel was cut at 20inches. Dad whittled out a Mannlicher stock and topped it with a Redfield 3x9 widefield that AT&t gave him upon retirement. He had long stopped travelling and was back into using handloads, now namely my handloads. I pushed 180gr Nosler Partitions and 180gr Sierra Game Kings with the same load - 54gr IMR4350. Velocity was a touch over 2600fps with both his 20" custom rifle and my 22" Rem 700ADL. 4 Elk, 5 shots, range from 65 yards to 275 yards. (The one that required the 2nd shot was at an extreme downhill angle at about 175yards that he misjudged and missed the first shot)

This is very close to what the old Lyman #45 manual labeled a factory duplication load. Just for kicks, I chronographed some factory Winchester 180gr powerpoints. Avg vel for the 20"Custom was 2640fps, for the 22" Remington was 2641fps. Loads are not light, but surely not maxed out. Case life has not been found yet and the rifles are both over 25 years old.
Elk do not require 3000fps with good 180gr bullets in 30cal.

Regards,
Sweetwater

[Coyote Hunter]

...
Elk do not require 3000fps with good 180gr bullets in 30cal.
...

Very true, but nothing wrong with a little extra MV.  I shoot my .300WM to 600 yards using a 180g bullet @ 3050fps.  My .30-06s will get there with the same bullet but need another 15-23" holdover depending on the velocity.

[lilabner]

The 30-06 is generally considered the most powerful cartridge the average shooter can handle without developing weird symptoms such as flinching, ringing in the ears, nightmares etc. Some can handle more power, others may fold using cartridges with less recoil. I have killed numerous bull elk and a couple of bull moose with my 30-06 with no problem. You can handload 180 gr. bullets up to some pretty outrageous speeds using the newer powders. Check out Nosler reloading manual #6. If you must have something more lethal, the 338/06 would be a good choice for a handloader.

[Coyote Hunter]

The 30-06 is generally considered the most powerful cartridge the average shooter can handle without developing weird symptoms such as flinching, ringing in the ears, nightmares etc. Some can handle more power, others may fold using cartridges with less recoil. I have killed numerous bull elk and a couple of bull moose with my 30-06 with no problem. You can handload 180 gr. bullets up to some pretty outrageous speeds using the newer powders. Check out Nosler reloading manual #6. If you must have something more lethal, the 338/06 would be a good choice for a handloader.

The many limitations of the "average shooter" don't concern me any when it comes to my choice of cartridge selection for MY rifles.

Right now I am in the process of selecting the cartridge for my first semi-custom/custom rifle.  One of the early candidates was a .338-06 but it lost out to the .338 Scovill which is very similar but has the shoulder moved forward.  It looks like the winner will be a wildcat .338-.375 Ruger which is the .375 Ruger necked down to .338.  Should give a tad better than .340 Weatherby performance in a -06 length action.

Should make for a nice 700-800 yard elk rifle with 210g bullets.  Definitely a nice step up from the .30-06.

[kyelkhunter3006]

CH, I'm usually right on with what you say....but a 700-800 yard elk rifle?  Seriously?  Personally, it's not for me, and I just don't see the point of it, but if that's your thing, so be it.

If that's what you really want, why not just go with the 338-378 Weatherby or the .338 Lapua and be done with it?  The gun will be heavy anyway (or it should be for stability and accuracy) so why does it matter if it's a 30-06 length action?

[Coyote Hunter]

CH, I'm usually right on with what you say....but a 700-800 yard elk rifle?  Seriously?  Personally, it's not for me, and I just don't see the point of it, but if that's your thing, so be it.

If that's what you really want, why not just go with the 338-378 Weatherby or the .338 Lapua and be done with it?  The gun will be heavy anyway (or it should be for stability and accuracy) so why does it matter if it's a 30-06 length action?

kyelkhunter –

Yup, seriously.

In this case its mostly a “because I can”.  I have a .257 Roberts which I consider a little light for elk but would do in a pinch, a 7mm Rem MAg which has been slaying elk with boring regularity since 1982, a .308 Win, three .30-06’s, a .300 Win Mag, and lever guns in .30-30, .375 Win and .45-70, all of which will take elk reliably at the ranges I generally take them at. 

The action I’m building on is a new Interarms Mark X action in .30-06 length. The RUM, Lapua and .340 Weatherby and .338-378 Weatherby are too long.  The .338-375 Ruger wildcat should provide .340 Weatherby performance with a shorter barrel.

One day the rifle might go hunting  moose or big bears, but in the meantime it will be another elk rifle.  Fully charged it should provide 700-800 yard capability.  (I can always download it to .338 Win Mag or .338-06 performance levels if I choose.)

By the way, I’ve never taken big game beyond 350 yards and wouldn’t attempt 700 without a lot of practice and perfect conditions.

[kyelkhunter3006]

Whew!  Now I can breathe easier. 

Are you going to do all the work yourself, or are you having it done?  I figured you were going to use the IA action you'd talked about on another thread.  If it's going to cost you a bit of serious cash, like a couple grand, why not just buy a Weatherby Accu-Mark in 338-378?  No waiting, and the ones I've read about shoot like crazy.  There's a guy who teached a long range hunting/marksmanship course (his name escapes me right now, but he's got his hunt videos on YouTube) that will only use the Accu-Mark rifle and he's made kills at over 1000yds on elk, deer, black bear, etc.

If it were me, I'd take that IA action and make it into a 7x57 or something, a great light sporter that I'd use all the time.

[catboat]

Ruger 375?

[jro45]

For a caliber above the 30/06 I have the 300 Win., also 300 RUM then the 338 RUM witch is a caliber above. The 8mm would also be a caliber above.

[Brithunter]

Well I see lot's of plugs for Weatherby's here  not for me wouldn't have one as a gift let alone waste money on one 

Now as a poster mentioned the 8mm is above .30 cal and I have nice sporting rifle in 7.92mm, also one in 9.3x57 although I wouldn't turn down a Nice 9.3x64 or even 9.3x62 providing it's not a Weatherby that is 

Oh hate to point this out but all those that tote the 300 win mag and other various 300 magnums they are not above .30 calibre but are in fact .30 calibre they just use bigger cases that's all  .