Author Topic: Wesson and Harrington BC Range Report  (Read 840 times)

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Offline Blackhawker

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Wesson and Harrington BC Range Report
« on: November 10, 2008, 07:28:15 PM »
Well, I finally got some rounds loaded and some time to get off to the range this weekend with my newly purchased Buffalo Classic.  The weather was pretty lousy so I only had a little quality time with the 38-55 barrel before the weather got really bad (too cold and VERY windy).  The rifle is a used Wesson and Harrington BC with both a 38-55 and 45-70 barrel.  I have done nothing to the 38-55 barrel with the exception of slugging it, which has shown to be .3795 in diameter.  I purchased some .379 diameter bullets for fear that any larger of a bullet diameter might not chamber when loaded into a cartridge as so many owners of older BC's have reported.  Plus, I had hoped that the bullets might obturate to the right diameter when fired since the grooves of the barrel are quite shallow.  Fortunately, all loaded rounds chambered without any hang-ups. 

Although I have loaded several other calibers over the course of the past 20 or so years, I have never loaded, or for that matter ever fired a 38-55 round.  Nonetheless, here is a synopsis of my time at the range:

After zeroing the rifle at 50 yards with my first six shots, I changed to the largest eyecup (smallest aperature) on the marbles tang sight and fired the next four shots on a fresh target.  When I stopped and checked the target I was, needless to say, quite amazed.  I guess the attached photo tells the story.



The above load used is a 265 grain FNGC bullet from Western Bullet Company over 26.0 grains of IMR 3031 and the group size is 1 1/8". 

I tested several loads consisting of half grain increments of 3031 up to 27.5 grains as well as 8.7 grains of Unique and 18.5 to 19.5 grains of IMR 4198.  All of the listed loads gave ten shot groups of 2 inches and some slightly less. 
I did not cronograph any of these loads but judging by the time span of report to the sound of impact, I approximate that the IMR loads were traveling at roughly 1,200 to possibly 1,300 fps.  There were several other people at the range sighting in slugs from their shotguns and the time delay from report to impact with the slug loads seemed to be approximately the same as my loads.  The Unique load was definitely traveling at significantly less velocity.  The delay from report to impact was very long, more like a .45 ACP round at 50 yards (900 fps or so). 

I did fire quite a few different loads from the 45-70 but did not have such good luck.  Between the heavy wind, some possible reloading issues (lots of hang-fires) and the shooter being beaten up by firing all too many 420 and 500 grain bullets, I just couldn't keep things on target.  I'll have to work on my loads and pick a better day for my next trip out and hopefully I'll have better luck on the 45-70.  For now however, I'm fairly satisfied with the 38-55.  Next time out I'll try it out at 100 yards if my eyesight doesn't fail me.

Offline lonewolf5348

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Re: Wesson and Harrington BC Range Report
« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2008, 07:50:06 PM »
Saeco #738 255gr rnfp. Has four lube groves plus a crimp grove that you wont use in a single shot and I have loaded it with up to 32 grains of IMR 3031.
I would say FPS around the 1600 the cast is soft lead BHN around 12 no gas check and no barrel leading.
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a380/lonewolf5347/38-55002.jpg

Offline Blackhawker

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Re: Wesson and Harrington BC Range Report
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2008, 06:37:08 AM »
I realize that the group could be tighter and that there are probably a lot of people who get better results than that of what I had shot over the weekend.  My main point, however, was (and I guess I didn't make it very clear) not to boast about my shooting, but instead to show that I was able to load, chamber, and fire rounds from an older BC 38-55 barrel without having to do any work on the chamber itself.  Secondly, even while using the same sized or slightly undersized bullets (not the traditional .001" over sized) in the older barrel, fairly accurate and consistent results were achieved and no keyholes were noted.  It seems that even at very low velocities, the same sized or slight undersized bullets had obturated enough to give good results.  One thing I forgot to mention in my original message was that I was loading with Winchester brass and not the Star-Line brass which has been recommended for older, tight chambered BC's in 38-55.
I know all barrels are not made the same but I thought I'd make a note of it for some of you that run into chambering problems.

With regard to your message Lonewolf; VERY nice shooting!  Hopefully I'll get a good day without a lot of wind and get some groups like that.

Question:  How did you manage to get 32 grains of 3031 in the load?  I got up to 28 grains and the load was compressed.  Now I realized that I'm using 265 grainers as opposed to the 255's, but 10 grains of lead isn't enough to accommodate the extra space in the cartridge.  Were those compressed loads? 

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: Wesson and Harrington BC Range Report
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2008, 08:22:47 AM »
Blackhawker,

If you research the H&R 38-55 Target, you'll find that few slug at .379" in the grooves, those made in 2007 by Marlin, and apparently those Targets produced as W&H models have .379" bores, but those are in the minority compared to the vast majority that were overbore and undernecked. And just an FYI, the 38-55 model CR3855 is named the Target, not a Buffalo Classic.  ;)

The Starline long brass is 2.125" long, with bullets seated long it provides good powder capacity, I'm shooting .379" 220gr jacketed @ 2375fps and .380" 325gr gas checked cast @ 1800fps in mine with no problems, those are at close to 375 Win load pressures tho, which I wouldn't advise on the older W&H frame.

Tim

http://buffaloclassic.tripod.com/

http://www.brimstonepistoleros.com/gazette/jan06.html

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,148853.msg1098617662.html#msg1098617662

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,150451.msg1098629743.html#msg1098629743
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline Blackhawker

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Re: Wesson and Harrington BC Range Report
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2008, 10:41:37 AM »
Blackhawker,

If you research the H&R 38-55 Target, you'll find that few slug at .379" in the grooves, those made in 2007 by Marlin, and apparently those Targets produced as W&H models have .379" bores, but those are in the minority compared to the vast majority that were overbore and undernecked. And just an FYI, the 38-55 model CR3855 is named the Target, not a Buffalo Classic.  ;)

The Starline long brass is 2.125" long, with bullets seated long it provides good powder capacity, I'm shooting .379" 220gr jacketed @ 2375fps and .380" 325gr gas checked cast @ 1800fps in mine with no problems, those are at close to 375 Win load pressures tho, which I wouldn't advise on the older W&H frame.

Tim

http://buffaloclassic.tripod.com/

http://www.brimstonepistoleros.com/gazette/jan06.html

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,148853.msg1098617662.html#msg1098617662

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,150451.msg1098629743.html#msg1098629743

Hi Tim,
Thanks for your reply and the links.  You're always a world of knowledge and a lot of help when it comes to H&R's.  As you know, I'm new to the site and just as new to these H&R firearms and the more info, the better.

I was under the impression that Star-Line sold both lengths of brass and since it wasn't mentioned, I just assumed that standard length brass was being used in lonewolf's loads.  It's nice to know that it is possible to put the extra load of powder in these loads, but as you suggested, I'll probably stick with medium range loads to be safe as I don't really know the overall strength of my W&H rifle.

I keep referring to my rifle as a Buffalo Classic because it actually is/was a Buffalo Classic with a 45-70 barrel.  The original owner added the 38-55 barrel at a later time.  How much later?? I am not sure...which makes me wonder about the bore to chamber ratio.  I guess I may have just lucked out with respect to that. 

Might I add, that's GREAT shooting displayed on those links.  Although I'll probably never put a scope on my target/Buffalo Classic...38-55/45-70  ???? (hybrid)???...it's nice to know that it has the potential to shoot 1 inch or less groups at 100 yards.  Very impressive!

Thanks again.

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: Wesson and Harrington BC Range Report
« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2008, 11:05:25 AM »
There's no difference in the frame or stock set of the factory BC and Target, the barrel length and chambering does make them distinctive tho. I have two of each, one 45-70 BC has been rechambered to 45-120, the other Target was rebored and rechambered to 405 Winchester by Wayne York at Oregunsmithing.

I'm only using a scope on it for load work, my 61yr old eyes just don't do too well for iron sights for very long, I can shoot good for a while, but after an hour or so looking thru a peep, I start getting blurry eyed and might as well go home!! ::) I have a Weaver K15 that I used for load work on the mild kickers,  it's so nice to be able to shoot most of the day with no problems, but even with it, after 4-5hrs at the range, the target starts to get a bit fuzzy. I have a Marbles 009813 Tang peep sight that I'm going to fit to the back of the frame and stock once I get loads worked up for it, I want to work on my own gas checked version of the Cheycast 325gr Snover bullet for some 300yd shooting, that's the longest I can shoot at my range, if the gas checks don't work out, I may just use the high pressure Carnauba Red from White Label Lube on them. I plan on drilling and tapping the frame for the front mount screw, and bedding a mounting base in the stock for the rear screw.  ;)

Tim
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline Blackhawker

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Re: Wesson and Harrington BC Range Report
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2008, 04:21:04 AM »
There's no difference in the frame or stock set of the factory BC and Target, the barrel length and chambering does make them distinctive tho. I have two of each, one 45-70 BC has been rechambered to 45-120, the other Target was rebored and rechambered to 405 Winchester by Wayne York at Oregunsmithing.

I'm only using a scope on it for load work, my 61yr old eyes just don't do too well for iron sights for very long, I can shoot good for a while, but after an hour or so looking thru a peep, I start getting blurry eyed and might as well go home!! ::) I have a Weaver K15 that I used for load work on the mild kickers,  it's so nice to be able to shoot most of the day with no problems, but even with it, after 4-5hrs at the range, the target starts to get a bit fuzzy. I have a Marbles 009813 Tang peep sight that I'm going to fit to the back of the frame and stock once I get loads worked up for it, I want to work on my own gas checked version of the Cheycast 325gr Snover bullet for some 300yd shooting, that's the longest I can shoot at my range, if the gas checks don't work out, I may just use the high pressure Carnauba Red from White Label Lube on them. I plan on drilling and tapping the frame for the front mount screw, and bedding a mounting base in the stock for the rear screw.  ;)

Tim

I'm about 15 yrs behind you but I know exactly what you mean about having a limited time span of looking through peep sights.  Aside from an old M1 Carbine, my BC is the first rifle I have with a peep sight and therefore, the first rifle with a peep sight that I really give a darn about accuracy better than hitting coffee can sized objects at 100 yards.  My experience at the range the other day proved my time span to be 1 to 2 hours and that was about it, hence the reason why I chose shooting at 50 yards.  :)  That made it a little easier on me.

I purchased my rifle with the Marbles peep sight already mounted on it.  It seems to work very well but when interchanging barrels I have to count about 60 clicks high and 45 clicks to the right when going from 38-55 to 45-70.  I've only shot the rifle once thus far so eventually when I work up an acceptable load for each caliber I should know exactly how many clicks in each direction without having to sight in every time.  My sight was mounted right into the wood stock and not tapped into the rear side of the frame and bedded down into the wood.  I wish the original owner had the frame tapped and had it done in the manner as you described but it's a little too late for that.  I suppose if I ever have a problem with the way it's mounted I can always change it but for now it seems pretty stable.

One note to you or anyone who mounts a sight like this on a heavy kicker.  Don't hold your thumb over the top of the tang area when shooting.  I really tore my thumb up on the sight when the 45-70 loads recoiled.  It took me a while (and I still haven't mastered it yet) to learn how to shoot with my thumb held downward on the trigger finger side.

Have fun with that Marbles sight.  I really like mine.

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: Wesson and Harrington BC Range Report
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2008, 04:35:21 AM »
Owch!!  :o I've used the Williams FP-TK sight on the 45-120 for some 200yd shooting with 555gr loads at 1800fps, so recoil is the only issue, but that's the extent of my long range shooting so far. I'm not a barrel swapping Handiholic, I prefer one barrel per frame, so sight adjustments wouldn't be an issue.  ;)

thanks for sharing,

Tim
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline Blackhawker

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Re: Wesson and Harrington BC Range Report
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2008, 06:11:42 AM »
Owch!!  :o I've used the Williams FP-TK sight on the 45-120 for some 200yd shooting with 555gr loads at 1800fps, so recoil is the only issue, but that's the extent of my long range shooting so far. I'm not a barrel swapping Handiholic, I prefer one barrel per frame, so sight adjustments wouldn't be an issue.  ;)

thanks for sharing,

Tim

Tim,
I found a link on the Beartooth Shooter's Forum with what I think is your 45-120 and the Williams sight.  Nice rifle and nice shooting!
I really like the brass trigger guard and barrel bushing (I think that's what it's called?).  Did you install all that brass?  I know there was a thread going around recently about brass trigger guards and I seem to recall something about a "Dixie" trigger guard.  Is that what yours is?  Was it difficult to install?  When I bought my rifle, the first thing I thought was that it needed a brass trigger guard and a brass butt plate.  Of course, before I dress it up, I need to work with it and learn how to shoot it.  :)

As far as switching barrels goes, I've been a T/C user for quite some time.  I have two frames and several barrels, both pistols and rifles.  I tend to switch those a lot but then again, they are all scoped and there is no sighting issues to deal with as when one has a tang sight.  Personally, I'm not really crazy about having to switch barrels on my H&R and having to adjust the sights.  I'd rather not have to do that but I guess that's the price I'll have to pay for now.  It seems like it will work for the time being. 

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: Wesson and Harrington BC Range Report
« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2008, 07:23:31 AM »
Thanks, the brass trigger guard and spacer came from Moyers, but I won't recommend his products to anyone, if you use the search for Moyers and by author quickdtoo, you'll see why.  :-X That's what prompted the metal trigger guard and spacer poll sticky, still waiting for Talley to provide them.

Tim
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline Blackhawker

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Re: Wesson and Harrington BC Range Report
« Reply #10 on: November 13, 2008, 10:29:35 AM »
Thanks, the brass trigger guard and spacer came from Moyers, but I won't recommend his products to anyone, if you use the search for Moyers and by author quickdtoo, you'll see why.  :-X That's what prompted the metal trigger guard and spacer poll sticky, still waiting for Talley to provide them.

Tim

WOW!  Thanks a lot Tim for saving me many headaches in the future.  As pretty as it looks on your rifle, I don't want to go through all of that.  It's too bad that Mr. Moyer didn't listen to your requests.  I'm sure he'd have a lot more sales from all of the H&R users out there.  I'd buy the set for sure!

I still think a brass butt plate would look great.  It would make for quite a finishing touch for all of you who went through the trouble of installing all of the other brass parts.

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: Wesson and Harrington BC Range Report
« Reply #11 on: November 13, 2008, 10:40:59 AM »
I don't think it would be hard to have the steel butt plate plated, might cost a bit, but should be able to be done. Caswell sells a kit for less than $50.

Tim

http://www.caswellplating.com/kits/plugnplate.htm
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline Blackhawker

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Re: Wesson and Harrington BC Range Report
« Reply #12 on: November 14, 2008, 04:35:31 AM »
I don't think it would be hard to have the steel butt plate plated, might cost a bit, but should be able to be done. Caswell sells a kit for less than $50.

Tim

http://www.caswellplating.com/kits/plugnplate.htm

I hadn't thought about plating it.  That might be an idea for future though.  Thanks Tim.