What sights for the new AR?

[Graybeard]

OK I've asked about which AR now it's time to think of sights.

Let's assume the primary use is home defense. Let's assume that at some future date when things get real ugly in one of those more or less SHTF situations folks in gangs begin roaming and breaking into homes and since their in gangs clearly more fire power is needed than just handguns or shotguns thus the purpose for having an AR to begin with.

Assuming distances for the most part are to be 100 yards and under since at my place if they are much further they can't even see the house or me them from the house.

What sights are most appropriate? I'll scope it for any varmint hunting and such for sure but some how after reflecting on it a scope might not be ideal for my personal self defense use of it.

It is the Remington R15 VTR and came minus sights but has what I think is called a Picatinny rail on top. I'm pretty sure it takes regular Weaver bases but really do need to verify that. It did not come with any sort of iron sights nor the carry handle thingie some ARs have.

So what options are available to me and what's the wise move? Red dot? Brand suggestion? Low power fixed or variable scope? Irons of some type? If so what type and how would you get them mounted considering what I have?

Need suggestions folks.

[jsoukup]

I needed a rear for mine. It's not the best, but it's the most reasonable and decent quality.

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/ARR140-7.html

They make something similar for the front. Prices get really high on this stuff, since it's all "handmade custom tactical".

[myronman3]

i would get the standard removeable handle/sights that fasten to the flat top.  i would sight it in, then take it off, and put some high rise scope rings on it with a regular 3-9 of your favorite flavor.    that way, you have a scope and if it breaks,  the removable carrying handle/sights to fall back on.   nothing fancy, nothing new, nothing really exciting.   just a boring, proven system.   

[Bugflipper]

 GB the mount on the reciever is a weaver. Picatinnies are very simmilar It would just cut every bar in half, just to shave weight.  As for dot sights. http://www.vortexoptics.com/riflescopes/view/vortex-strikefire-red-dot-riflescope
watch video on page.
This is the cheapest dependable combat sight I know of. Next, moving up in price would be eotec holosite, aimpoint and trijicon.
For close quarters I like green lasers as well. I do not trust only one sighting system. Recently prices have dropped and you can find them for $50 and up. They are good for about 25 yards bright sunlight, 200-300 yards overcast and virtually limitless at night.

[sidekick]

You say it did not come with any sort of iron sights. Assumming that means no front sight tower even, does the gas block have picatinny rail? If so, good---check out Yankee Hill Machine, Inc. for reasonably priced for the quality detachable fold down front and rear iron sights. Obviously if there is a front sight tower, you would only require a fold down rear sight. LaRue Tactical also makes a great quick detach rear sight (throw lever), though it does not fold down. Then a red dot sight would be in order. I have a S.P.O.T. that is sort of an Aimpoint clone. I think I paid something over $115 for it and it came with a decent mount. So far, no problems with it. An Aimpoint or EoTech will run $400+, though they are no doubt better quality than the S.P.O.T. Don't even look at a Trijicon, unless money is no object, because that is what you will want once you look through one.

[Graybeard]

You guys need to understand I know NOTHING about these ARs. Consider me dumb as dirt about them.

Here is the rifle I have:



The barrel is just plain with nothing on it period. It's just a round barrel like on a bolt gun not set up for irons but scope only.

Where would the rear sight shown on the site referenced be placed? Would it attach to the same rail as the scope bases? Would any of the sights on that site work on the plain round barrel of my R15? Where would a front sight like this one fit?


Is that a rear sight I see on this? It looks like the handles on M16s which I think contain the rear sight but the front on them is WAAAY up in the air. Would such be needed if I got it? How could one be attached?

What is a gas block? Where to I look for it to see if it has a rail.



Here are the specifications on it. It does say it has a picatinny rail.


Model R-15 VTR™ Features
New semi-automatic AR-15-style rifle developed with the predator hunter in mind

Free-floating button-rifled 0.680" Muzzle OD ChroMoly barrels with recessed hunting crown for superior accuracy

Fluted barrel design reduces weight and promotes rapid barrel cooling

Clean-breaking single-stage hunting trigger

Receiver-length Picatinny rail for adding optics

Ergonomic pistol grip

Fore-end tube drilled and tapped for accessory rails

Full Advantage® MAX-1 HD™ coverage

Includes 5-round magazine

Legal for hunting in most states

Compatible with aftermarket AR-15 magazines

Lockable hard case included

[John R.]

Graybeard, check out the Eotech holosight. It is very fast for up close and you can easily knock down steel @ 250 yds. Then you can swap your scope out when you get ready to varmit hunt.

[jsoukup]

Either of the rear sights/carry handle will clamp on the rail on the receiver, it will also take a scope. Some guys spend $ on fold down sights so they can attach a scope and the rear sight on the same rail, just fold down the rear until they take the scope off.

Usually in front of the handguard/foreend, there's another piece of that rail. Apparently Remington didn't put it on this model. It looks like they want you to buy a 4" Picatinny Fore-end Rail

http://www.remington.com/products/accessories/gun_parts/r-15_parts.asp

It looks like that bolts onto the foreend/handguard then you mount a front sight on that.

Hmmm... Did you notice there's a Byron South Edition? Do you know he posts on the Predator Masters forum?

http://www.predatormastersforums.com/ubbthreads/showprofile.php?Cat=0&User=26530&Board=1&what=ubbthreads&page=0

It might be worth sending him a PM and asking what he recommends.

[FLNT4EVR]

GB I mounted a simmon 4x pro diamond shotgun scope on mine. Very fast target aquizition and it does everything I need out to 200yds.

[Graybeard]

Usually in front of the handguard/foreend, there's another piece of that rail. Apparently Remington didn't put it on this model. It looks like they want you to buy a 4" Picatinny Fore-end Rail

http://www.remington.com/products/accessories/gun_parts/r-15_parts.asp

It looks like that bolts onto the foreend/handguard then you mount a front sight on that.

When you say it bolts to the fore end/handguard I assume you mean the round plastic forend that circles the barrel? I'll have to take a look and see if I can figure out where there it might go. Seems like a kinda short sight radius if so.

Hmmm... Did you notice there's a Byron South Edition? Do you know he posts on the Predator Masters forum?

Well yeah someone else had mentioned him and I did read his post over there on the R15 and also saw the info on Remington's site about him and the limited edition rifle with his name on it at an extra $600 or so added cost.

I take it tho that he is primarily a predator hunter and his uses and my expected use are way different. Still he might be very knowledgeable all the way around on these rifles and other uses of them.

[Bugflipper]

The first pic is the standard co witness setup. If your optics fail, you have iron sights. I don't like iron sights in the way. So the flip ups are all I choose if I have any at all. This particular rifle has tritium's. Just enlarge and it should show you where the little weaver mount sights fit.
 The second pic is just a reference for different mounting options.

The gas block is the little guy just forward of your handguard. A tube runs underneath the handguard from the gas block to the bolt. You can buy a block that clamps over the gas block that has a picatany or do like the first pic and mount a picatany on the handguard for a front sight. Your gas block is shaved, that is where the original front sight would go. They generally interfear with higher power scopes. I probably only have 8 or 9 with iron sights, just don't like them personally. I subscribe to the idea of using quality optics instead of iron sights.

[Bugflipper]

Sorry, spotted a pick with an exposed gas tube. My wife is a picture nut. The one on the right shows the gas tube on the top of the barrel running from the block under the handguard.

[myronman3]

 i thought that gun came with a forward rail on the gas block, evidently i was wrong.  i would just put a 3x9 scope on it and call it good; if that is the rifle you have absolutely settled on.   one can take out a second mortgage when setting up their ar with accessories.   

[Graybeard]

It isn't just the rifle I settled on it's the one I brought home with me.

Bugflipper some questions.

You seem to have a bunch of stuff mounted up top on that rifle the inidividual one in the first image.

I see a rear sight, the forward from there some sort of optic sight. What is it? Then still further forward behind the front sight is something else I do not recognize. What is that?

It appears both the optic sight and the other thing in front of it would interfere with the use of irons. How do they remove for iron sight use? Are they a quick detach of some sort?

Is this the set up you'd use for close quarters combat use? Say from right in your face to under 100 yards?

[Graybeard]

Let me approach this question from yet another angle. I'm still confused on what to get.

I will mount a scope on QD rings but.... that's hardly an appropriate set up in my opinion for close quarters combat use. Here I'm talking from right in your face to under 100 yards or so.

What sort of sight set up or set ups do the military use say the ground troops in Iraq now who are doing street fighting in the cities and going house to house. And what set up or set ups do SWAT units or other law enforcement agencies use? I'd think in most cases they have close quarters set ups but likely some longer range sniper stuff as well. What I'm mostly asking about here tho is the under 100 yards to right in your face use.

[myronman3]

alright....much easier to answer that way.  if money is NOT an object....trijicon acog sight. 
   if money is an object, and you want fast target aquisition, eotech or a bushnell holosight.  i cant imagine a faster, deadlier setup. 

[Graybeard]

Thanks I'll try to round up a link and find the trijicon acog sight. I know the Bushnell Holosight to some extent as I had one once for a review. It really didn't strike me as all that rugged for use on a firearm that might see some rough handling at times. The eotech I think is the same baisically but made to slightly different specs as they make them for Bushnell as well.

I won't say money is no object but then it is also not the most important factor in the decision making process otherwise I'd have picked up a rifle for $400-$500 less than the one I chose.

[Default]

 Bill there a quite a few options for the AR for close quarter engagement .. Good to take note the lessons our brothers in uniform have learned and been relying on and proving in theater.

 Aim Point .. good option , uses batteries but the batt life is around 10,000 hours of constant on time ..Real quick on target..Has a few choices for how bright you want the red dot

 I use the M2 AimPoint in between the middle of my Colts iron sights .. the configuration you saw on that first rifle you mentioned in a previous post is a similar setup to mine ...Noticed you posted while i was typing  ..The Aimpoint is pretty much bullet proof ...i have mine set to have the red dot on the top of my front post for low light conditions and quick on target while still using my standard irons ... so should batteries die in the field and no replacement batteries are available i can still use my iron sights with the aimpoint in place

 For yours with no sights at all ( like my AR in 308 ) you can pick up fixed detachable sights .. or detachables that lay down flat and out of the way of your (optic of choice) should you need them ..
 The ACOG will cost you almost as much as your rifle did ... Trijicon makes a number of sight options for quick on target , and use no batteries
 EOTEC is another good option too..Using the best in holographic sight systems  ... I'll post a couple links for you Bill to get you pointed in the right direction

http://www.rguns.net/003_page1.html

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/ItemListing.aspx?catid=1877

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/ItemListing.aspx?catid=1876
  Most of your normal haunts online should offer you some good choices and prices on anything mentioned by me or the guys .. On a personal note , my dad just gave me the call i was hoping would come before election day came ... The "Son go find me my first AR" call that is.

 So i have been in a bit of a hustle to locate options for him , same as you are going through now yourself.

 And Bill  .   ....  ...    Welcome to the Dark Side and Congrats on your first AR  ... Even if it isnt black


        Default

[Default]

Was thinking Bill about the magazine mention you made ... pickings are kinda slim atm , DPMS has thier 30 round mags for $12 and $13.50 a pop

 Also check out this site     http://www.44mag.com/products.asp?dept=1326     they are a good source among many to find quality mags for your AR ... Cproduct is good gear

  I'm sure some of the other guys will chime in as well ..
  Right now though 44mag is down to only their 20 round CProduct mags
 They were flush with 30s 2 weeks ago , im sure they will get more ... so be sure to book mark them for future reference ..

       Default

   

[Graybeard]

Thanks for the links Default. I'm having to spend so much time dealing with all the spammers trying to register that I'm not having much luck making time for other things.

I am now on the site in another window that you first linked. What are the differences between the Aimpoint M2 and M2L? Which do you have and why?

How do they mount? It doesn't look like there is room for more than one ring at most on the one in the photo at there site.

Boy that Cheaper than Dirt site is SLOW. I got on there last night and it just locked up and won't budge. It's doing a bit better today.

On the second link there are some of the ACOG sights in the $400+ range. Is there anyone in particular that might be a better choice than the ohters? I see there are several different types and I have no knowledge at all of them. Some look much like the Holosight.

[myronman3]

http://www.trijicon.com/
check out the acog.  i didnt see it on the link default posted; although they did have the "acog reflex" which is not the sight i am talking about.  and, i am sure the acog reflex is a good sight system. 

[Bugflipper]

It isn't just the rifle I settled on it's the one I brought home with me.

Bugflipper some questions.

You seem to have a bunch of stuff mounted up top on that rifle the inidividual one in the first image.

I see a rear sight, the forward from there some sort of optic sight. What is it? Then still further forward behind the front sight is something else I do not recognize. What is that?

It appears both the optic sight and the other thing in front of it would interfere with the use of irons. How do they remove for iron sight use? Are they a quick detach of some sort?

Is this the set up you'd use for close quarters combat use? Say from right in your face to under 100 yards?

GB the rear sights flip up. Then an aimpoint micro. Then a laser, then a front flip up sight. This is an entry rifle for clearing rooms of a house. It has an 11.5" barrel and a short stock (believe 6" shorter than stock). The set up on this is known as a B.U.I.S back up iron sight. Iron sights are ghost ring and post both tritium.Everything is set up to line up perfectly. The irons and dot just clear the flashlight/laser. There is about three grand on top of that rifle, don't think you need to go that route. It is a full auto, so kind of set up like a smg with a little bit more range and controllability. It is a solid 300 yard rifle though. I just put it up to try to show if you wanted irons you could have them( much cheaper than this set up by the way).
 As for what is used, most local agencies use iron sights, marines use the acog ($1000 +) these are generally for 1-600 yards as they are usualy 4 or 6 power and have a dot sight on top. Federal agencies and army use aimpoints.

[Bugflipper]

 Here's one with a little less clutter, just a flip up and aimpoint. The sights on this one are just visible at the bottom of the scope when flipped up.

[Bugflipper]

Same setup with eotech.

[Graybeard]

Are the irons useable with the Aimpoint and Eotech in place like that? The idea of a laser for night time use or in darkened conditions seems kinda logical but since it uses batteries not necessary something to rely on completely.

I saw a Bushmaster today with all sorts of stuff on it. It had a weird looking (to me at least) fore end that appeared to have multiple rails and then in four positions at 12-3-6-9 o'clock positions there was some kinda metal grate like feature for lack of a better description. It was so darn fat you couldn't get your hand around it. I assume it was to attach stuff off to the side as well as on top. He had one rifle with a red dot type sight that had some sort of reticle that sure wasn't a dot and it turned from red to green and he had a laser on it as well all in addition to irons you could view but barely underneath the red/green dot sight.

I sure didn't like the ergonomics of the ones with a carrying handle and a dot type sight above it. They seemed very akward trying to get my head high enough to look thru them. It seemed to me they would be slow to shoot with any kinda accuracy.

If nothing else I'm thoroughly and completely confused and bewildered by the options.

[Bugflipper]

 That was just a picatany rail hand guard. You can fill those with rubber plugs.
 Yeah you can use the irons with the scopes mounted just look through the glass and line the sights up like normal.
 Just think of it this way you've played around with contenders for years. Putting scopes and dots and iron sights on them. It's the same thing. You just mount a rail and install what you want. Let's say you want a laser, a flashlight a dot scope, no irons and a 3-9 scope. Put two rails one on each side of the hand guard( 3 and 9 o'clock) out of the way of your hand. Mount the flashlight on one side then the laser on the other. Just like putting on a scope. Then leave your dot sight on at home and replace it with the 3-9x when you go out hunting for little furry guys.

[myronman3]

If nothing else I'm thoroughly and completely confused and bewildered by the options.

that is the worst and the best thing about the ar's.

[Bugflipper]

 GB, I compete professionally. I of coarse have sponsors that help along the way, otherwise I would not have acogs, eotecs and aimpoints. $400-$1500 is a bit steep for me. What you are paying for is the reliability and performance. When we go out hunting we expect our scope to hit what we aim at. If it doesn't, we had a bad day, go home and figure out what went wrong. With these dot scopes the people these were designed for don't have that option.
 I'm not trying to push this one on you, but you may take another peak at them. They run $130 or so, I am sponsored by them as well, however I am very pleased and believe in bang for the buck. These are brand new they are about to tripple in price as soon as they get a foothold in the market. They have come out cheap to get the name out then will be a direct competitor with aimpoint. It has a 2x lens that is included and screws on. The picture I foung online is with 2x mounted. It comes in a high and low mount model with included weaver mount. Vortex Strikefire in my oppinion is the best for under $500.

[jsoukup]

Everything you want to know about the Vortex

http://www.ar15.com/forums/forum.html?b=2&f=277

I'm kinda partial to this:

http://www.swfa.com/pc-10714-1395-millett-1-4x24-dms-tactical-30mm-riflescope.aspx

[Bugflipper]

 Found this pic onlie for the cowitnes setup. The rear sight is folded down. It would line up just where the front is. This way you can use them if you need to, but the sights don't take away much from your sight picture when using dot.