What's So $@!&# Special About A .308?

[Snareman]

What's So $@!&# Special About A .308?

[R.W.Dale]

 Bottom line is when engaging targets at long range anything a 308 will do a 30-06 will do better.  Do to it's larger case the 30-06 will deliver the same bullets as 308 with  a lower time in flight thus giving the atmosphere less time to push your bullets around. Or for the savvy hand loader the 30-06 will deliver a heavier bullet with a higher BC at the same velocity 308 gets with lighter bullets.

 The 308's popularity in long range shooting is largely a manifestation of the "lemming effect" this has gone on for so long now that manufacturers rifle offering mirror this. Take 260 or 7mm/08 both these cartridges offer outstanding ballistics and accuracy potential for long distance shooting....BUT....you can't buy a heavy barreled rifle for these chamberings. Largely because they aren't tacticool enough to warrant a precision rifle so chambered.

While gone I recall or get the notion that the .308 is inherently more accurate than a .270 & 30-06.  Is this true?  If so, what aspects of this caliber make it so?

Inherent accuracy is a complete line of warm gooey BS propagated by gun writers to tout their pet rounds. Rifle quality and ammo quality are where accuracy is conceived. In flight a bullet has no memory whatsoever of what's stamped on the  cartridges case head

In a quality firearm just about any cartridge can offer outstanding accuracy potental, Hell I have a bull barreled 7.62x39 that'll shoot 1/3rd MOA at 300meters.

[Cheesehead]

Being a NATO round helps with its popularity along with the abundance of high quality brass and bullets and rifles and premium loaded ammo and and and....

Cheese

[Coyote Hunter]

Snareman –

The .270 is a fine cartridge, perhaps the best available for a dedicated deer rifle.

That said, there isn’t anything significant you can do with a .270 Win that you can’t do with a .30-06 but the .30-06 will handle heavy bullets better.  The .270 does offer lighter recoil but does so by using lighter bullets.

The .308 Win is a near cousin to the .30-06.  I shoot mine out to 500 yards on a regular basis, same as I do with the .30-06.  When I want to reach out to 300 yards I typically grab the .300 WM or 7mm RM.

As a matter of preference, I like them all...

As to "inherent accuracy" it is more theoretical than practical.  Being a shorter cartridge allows a shorter and theoretically stiffer action.  differences in individual rifles often negate any such "inherent accuracy".  If you can tell the difference between the "inherent accuracy" of .308 Win and .30-06-length actions you are one in a thousand -- or maybe ten thousand or more -- and probably shooting competitively and doing very, very well.

[Syncerus]

The .308 is the greatest short and medium range deer cartridge in the world. It's exceedingly boring; all it does is kill what you hit. Inexpensively.

Sell me yours for cheap.

[243dave]

The military developed the 308 for machine-guns. They wanted to duplicate the 30-06 with a shorter round that could work through a shorter, lighter and more efficient gun. They done a fine job too. A 308 will do what a 06 will do with bullets until you reach 180 grains, of course the 308 is loaded to a higher pressure to achieve this with 150's and 165's. 180's and up is where a 06 has the advantage(the ability to use slower burning powders). So you want to know what's so $@!&# special about a 308. Its the ability to run with the 06 being half an inch shorter. That my friend is a efficient and well thought out cartridge.  Dave

[jmayton]

Any cartridge that is used by both the military will be popular with civilians as well.  The 30-06 is obsolete as a military cartridge now, so it seems to have some waning popularity among civilian shooters.  That's also why the .270 is not as popular or offered with as many bullet choices as a 30-06.  The .270 is a great round and does an effective job on what you use it on, but it was never a military round, so it's remained 2nd in popularity.  The .308 is the current "tactical" military round and that's why it's so popular right now....it's just cool to be tactical.

[jvs]

The 308 is a Short Action round, the 30-06 and 270's are Long Action rounds and should not be confused in comparison.  Some claim that the Receiver in a short action caliber is a little stiffer, since it is 'shorter',  than a long action and could lead to a slight accuracy advantage.

If you have and like the 270, you pick up no practical hunting advantage by using a 30-06.  They are close Cousins in ballistics.

A few things are unquestionable...  the difference in length of the bolt in a short action compared to a long action can sometimes make a diference when being used in the field.  30 Caliber ammo and reloading supplies are mostly cheaper to buy and use than other calibers.  And there is more of a choice of bullet weights for 30 caliber.

That being said, you pick up NO advantage of owning a 30-06 after you are happy with a 270.   Just as you don't need a 270 if you already have a 30-06.  And, regardless on how many long actions you already own, the 308 is always a good addition.  Mostly because the 308 is so dependable it is BORING. 

If you were planning to be 'blown away' by the performance of the 308, I am sorry to say that it is not the way the 308 works.  A 308 is BORING, BORING, BORING......but DEPENDABLE ! 

[BBF]

lobbing a bullet to the target
Yep, you ought to check the trajectory of a Postell type bullet from a 45-70 to 1000 yard, I still wouldn't want to get hit by one at that range.

 Military cartridges have steadily reduced diameters over the years until in rifle cartridges they got down to the 22.Now it seemed to be going up a bit again because speed and weight( lack of)  isn't everything.
 I trained with the Garand, got switched to the M-14 and I didn't like it other then the box magazine. Give me a 30-06 anytime or a similar long case.

[Cheesehead]

The 308 is a perfect blend of "medium" in a short case. Medium power, medium recoil, medium trajectory for medium to large game with out ever being overkill or punishing to the shooter. It is nearly perfect for whitetail and similar or larger game. I just got back form the range after shooting my 7mm Remington magnum, with hot hunting loads, 15 times. I like my 308 rifles even more today, but I also like the 7mm and tolerate it, barely.

Cheese

[jmayton]

Last year, i had to sight-in three rifles for our family before hunting season.  I'll do it for others, but I sight-in my own rifles myself.  Anyway, all three had new scopes that needed to be zeroed.  The first was a Winchester 70 in 30-06 with wood stock.  The second was a Browning BLR in .308 and the third was a Ruger 77 in 7mm Rem Mag with the synthetic stock.  I hunt with a 30-06, so I knew what to expect (even with no recoil pad).  The 7mm Mag surprised me by how light the recoil was compared to what the ones I had shot before.  The .308 also surprised my by how brisk the recoil was.  All three seemed to be in the same recoil range, but that was due to the rifle, not the cartridge so much.  I would still say the recoil is similar between the 30-06 and the .308 in the same rifle with the same weight bullet.  It seems the pressure spike for the .308 is quicker so it seems to have more recoil velocity while the 30-06 with its slower pressure curve seems to have more push.  But that's just me.

[corbanzo]

What is so @#$%$ special about a .270?  Hooray, it shoots pretty flat and kills medium sized game. 

The .30-06 does the same thing. 

Why don't we stop comparing apples to oranges, and we compare the .270 to the 30-06, because they are the same cartridge, instead of looking at the .308win, which is a much smaller cartridge. 

The .270 beats the .30-06 in trajectory!  By about a half inch to an inch at 400 yards.  Who cares?  You know the funny thing... is when you look at the charts for ballistics, the .270 seems to stop at 150, where the -06 goes up to 200?  Hmmmmmmmm.

If you stay inside 300 yards (AKA normal hunting ranges), a 30-06 has BETTER trajectory than the .270 win does.  But, once again, only by an inch or so. 

So here is why a .308 caliber is better: 

When loading the same weight bullet in the same cartridge with the slightly different caliber: not enough difference in trajectory to even notice. 

The .308 caliber handles heavy bullets(they make up to 250 grain now), which the .270 does not.
The .308 caliber can handle bullets just as small as the .270 does.

If you want to knock the .30-06, use the .270... which doesn't work. as it turns out.

If you are trying to knock the .308, use the 7mm-08.  I am pretty sure you won't find much in the way of difference with that either. 


Do you really know why the .308 is all over the place, and always compared to everything else?  It is our current military round.  That is why. 

[Augustis]

The only thing I see that has been left out is potentially a little longer barrel life, due to less powder being burned for each round fired.

I note that you like the .243 Win and .260 Rem, both are developed from the .308 case. The .308 is an effective intermediate range SWS for applications to 800 meters. I have hit targets with mine out to 1100 yards but to be honest there is not much left when the bullet arrives at the target past 1k. Also in windy country such as my ranch, I have noted that my .308 falls short of the target in 20 mph sustained wind and so IMHO the 30 - 06 with the bigger boiler room would offer an advantage over the .308 in this area of long range target engagement also.

Also, you may require specific bullets to ensure super sonic flight with the .308 out to 1k.. I use the 175 SMK personally, but with the 06 may offer superior bullet selection for engaging targets at these extended ranges, as has already been pointed out by others.

The .260 is no slouch in the area of long range shooting either, so it sounds like you are covered ;O)

Good shooting!

Aug ><>

[IOWA DON]

I have been asked my recommendations for deer rifles for four people who wanted to begin deer hunting in the midwest. I recommended the .270 because of slightly less recoil than a .30-06, flatter trajectory, and less wing deflection, while still having plenty of power for 400 yard shots. The .308 would have less recoil than a .30-06, but with a slightly more arched trajectory and slightly more wind drift. A .270 would also be a better coyote rifle. I also recommended these beginning rifle centerfire rifles not move up to a a 7MM Mag because of increased barrel fouling with ordinary factory barrels and higher recoil. I also recommended the 700 Remington as a good rifle. Three of the four people bought 700 Remington rifles in .270 caliber and were happy with them. The fourth bought a 700 Remington, but in .30-06. The reason for his choice was that most of the hunters in his family used rifles in .30-06.

[S.E.Ak]

If it wasn't for Jack O'Connor the 270 would be long gone and folks would still be shooting 308's and 06's like they are now.A new bullet needs a champion and Jack took on the 270 much like Boddington now pushes the 375 Ruger.

[deltecs]

Any cartridge that is used by both the military will be popular with civilians as well.  The 30-06 is obsolete as a military cartridge now, so it seems to have some waning popularity among civilian shooters.  That's also why the .270 is not as popular or offered with as many bullet choices as a 30-06.  The .270 is a great round and does an effective job on what you use it on, but it was never a military round, so it's remained 2nd in popularity.  The .308 is the current "tactical" military round and that's why it's so popular right now....it's just cool to be tactical.

I sure don't know what you mean by waning popularity with the 30-06.  It is still the best selling rifle caliber in Ruger, Winchester, Remington, CZ American and a couple of other manufacturers.  It is largest selling caliber in the world for a sporting round.  I don't see any waning with this venerable effective game round. 

The Ever-Popular .30 and .303 Caliber Rifle Cartridges

By Chuck Hawks



Here in North America, where I live, there is no question what rifle caliber is the most popular for civilian use. For big game hunting, the .30-06 Springfield is currently the best selling centerfire rifle cartridge--

[wareagleguy]

I don't have a 260 but I do have a 6.5 x 55 which is about the same thing.  I own many rifles and many calibers.  I think you are going to have a real hard time finding a rifle better than that 260.

[Brithunter]

Oh I love this  

Firstly your talking cartridges NOT calibres  

Both 308 Win and 30-06 Sprg are .30 calibre as is 30-30 Win.

As for accuracy well there is the theory that the shape and ratio length verses diameter of the powder column effect the accuracy potential which is why Bench rest cartridges like the PPC's and Rem BR's have shorter/fatter cases however I say theory as no one that I have heard of has really done an in depth scientific comparision of powder column lengths.

The 308 has proved itself to be capable of superb accuracy and it works on dropping game quickly and cleanly and the original poster seems to be comparing different calibres and case lengths to get the answer that they want. Hmmm perhaps they should consider a career in politics as they do that sort of thing  

But the 06 cartridge is better at sending the heavier bullets down range than the 308 as it has more fuel capacity to do so. It's up to you to decide whether this is important to you or not   The other thing is consider that the 06 has a larger bullet diameter than the 270 Win and a larger bullet has more frontal area to hit with as such transmits more energy quickly than a smaller bullet, again you will have to decide if this is important to you.

Me I have all three and like all three and hunt with all three but have had the 308 longer and it has claimed a lot of deer, the 270 win was a bogey cartridge/rifle combination for me and it was not until 2005 than I fianlly shot a deer with it despite that rifle being the very first full bore rifle I brought   seen plenty of deer in the sights but it was always an unsafe shot, wrong der, species/sex etc so i never got to squeeze the trigger on a deer until may 2003 with a Muntjac yearling Buck.

[Swampman]

I really can't imagine not having & loving a .308 caliber rifle.  The .30-06 can be beat, and the .308 is almost as good.  The .270 & .260 are pretty good deer rifles.  The .30-06 is a good everything rifle.  I just love this quote by Col. Cooper.

"I have long taught that if you can't do it with a 30-06, you probably can't do it. Every time some new brass powder bottle appears for sale, all sorts of people, qualified or otherwise, leap into the breach to explain how this new round is somehow better than what has gone before. Whether it is better or not must depend upon what it is designed to do, and it is effectively impossible to say that a shooter accomplished his purpose in the field with the new cartridge in a way that he could not have done with a 30-06. As it is said in Lindy Wisdom's verse: "There ain't many troubles that a man can't fix with seven hundred dollars and a thirty ought six." We do not know about the $700, but we do have confidence in the great 30-06 cartridge.

The Steyr Scout, which is now pretty much the definition of what a sporting rifle should be, is furnished in 308 rather than 30-06, but that is simply because the slightly smaller 308 cartridge can be fitted into a slightly smaller action, which has little to do with what comes out the muzzle. The 308, in modern loadings, is the ballistic equivalent of the 30-06, apart from its failure to accommodate the 220-grain bullet, which has definite, if minor, advantages for the medium-size hunting of medium-size animals."

Col. Jeff Cooper

[R.W.Dale]

The 308, in modern loadings, is the ballistic equivalent of the 30-06, apart from its failure to accommodate the 220-grain bullet,

BUT modern 30-06 loads set the bar that much higher than .308 once you move beyond 06'es lower SAAMI pressure rating.

[Skunk]

I really can't imagine not having & loving a .308 caliber rifle. The .30-06 can be beat, and the .308 is almost as good. - Col. Jeff Cooper

There you go. Just get one or two of each. Then a person won't have to worry which is better because he will probably love each equally and will also find a good application for each respectively.

[Casull]

Quote
The 308, in modern loadings, is the ballistic equivalent of the 30-06, apart from its failure to accommodate the 220-grain bullet,

BUT modern 30-06 loads set the bar that much higher than .308 once you move beyond 06'es lower SAAMI pressure rating.

Bingo!  There is no reason the 30'06 in a modern rifle should be loaded to any lesser pressure than the .308.  Same chamber wall thickness, same bolt face, same brass thickness (within normal variances).  Simple physics says that if you load both to the same pressures, the greater case capacity of the 30'06 will result in greater velocity.

[jmayton]

deltec, point taken.  I refer to it's waning in all around shooting, not just hunting.  And, I seem to hear less and less about the old '06 and more and more about the .308.  I guess my perception doesn't match reality.  I have a handloading magazine from 1956 that has an article questioning the obsolescence of the 30-06.  Seems they had this argument when the cartridge was only 50 years old and now we're still having when it is 100.  Anyway, I like mine.  It hits what I point it at.

[jvs]

My guess is that you hear more about short action calibers because of two reasons...

Barrel length have gotten shorter for hunting over the years and the use of Button Rifling has taken off from the manufacturing end.  While the button  rifling may be a non issue until the rifle has some age to it, the shorter barrel may affect the performance of bigger powder charge calibers.  A reason that some people may not realize.

I still have issues with button rifling, and even if I hear a good arguement in favor of its use, I still don't like the idea.  The ONLY thing button rifling is.. is cheaper to produce.  Hence what is good for the manufacturers bottom line is good for everyone.......   NOT !  I don't buy such arguements, even though I have no choice but to buy the rifle with its cut.

The original post in this thread sounded a little confusing until I realized that Snareman probably had no idea that there is a basic difference between a 308 and a 30-06, even though he admitted experience with short action cases like 30-30 and 243, and long actions like the 270.  He knew the difference between a 243/30-30 and a 270, but he didn't apply the idea to the 308 and 30-06.

Hopefully this thread has enlightened him a little.

[Snareman]

x

[Brithunter]

The 308 has proved itself to be capable of superb accuracy and it works on dropping game quickly and cleanly and the original poster seems to be comparing different calibres and case lengths to get the answer that they want. Hmmm perhaps they should consider a career in politics as they do that sort of thing

What kind of crap answer is that?  I'm trying to learn something here and replies like that have no place in this post.

Move on and out of here.

=============================
As for you others.  I really appreciate the replies.  It's quite educational and I couldn't see myself getting a book, magazine or video that could be more interesting.  Yes, I am a rookie at this stuff, but it's help like yours I appreciate to get this ol' boy on track!

Thanks.  You gave me enough material here to read several times over.  LOL!

Snareman 

I notice that you only chose one small part of my reply, are you sure you not a politition as that's another of their little tricks?

  I did start a reasoned answer but they thought that it would be wasted upon you as it's obvious you have not the whit comprehend the facts nor answer. I will however endevour to remember your handle so that I don't waste ,my time reading your posts in future.

Oh as this is Graybeards site it is up to him to tell me to get out of here and not some ignorant little *%^%.

Edit:-
Missed some spaces 

[Snareman]

x

[corbanzo]

Well, you did call him brathunter, which is a compliment in my book.  I do love a good brat.  Especially with some good kraut and mustard.  mmmmmmm.  I'll go hunting for some of that anytime. 

Now if I seem off topic... you two should look at your replies   

Brithunter - I know he laid into you, but there is no place for name calling.

Snareman - Personal attacks WILL NOT be tolerated.  If you continue to do so, I'm sure the management will have something more to say about your membership here at GBO.  I am requesting the mod for this forum to delete your last post.

[Bart Solo]

Here is a question for you all to ponder. In the old days the long range cartridge of choice was the 30-06.  It dominated competition for decades. Then came the 308. It replaced the 30-06 as the long distance cartridge of choice within a short time.  I know,  the military invented the 308 and anointed it the replacement for the 30-06. but I have read that the scores for long distance competition shooters were so much better than the 30-06 the 308 simply ran the 30-06 out of competition.  Was anybody there around at the transition? Which story is true?

[Snareman]

x