Author Topic: Time to secede?  (Read 4025 times)

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Offline littlecanoe

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Time to secede?
« on: November 15, 2008, 04:37:52 AM »
Please share your thoughts on WHEN any people have the right and/or responsibility to move away from a government?

If you feel that no people ever have the right to leave, please state the reason for that also.

Please step beyond the reasoning and give some specific examples to support your stand.

Offline BBF

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Re: Time to secede?
« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2008, 12:32:27 PM »
Creating a new federal govt entails a big bag of issues,  In example
Recognition of other Nations
Establishing a currency
Borders
Defense

Each of the above and I am sure there are more, entail more sub groups.
The big one is of course will the Motherland let you go or are you facing sedition and treason charges.

 The only State that I recall is Texas that joined the Union in a different way
( can't recall just what it is called) that would make it easier for that State to leave.
What is the point of Life if you can't have fun.

Offline littlecanoe

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Re: Time to secede?
« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2008, 12:50:52 PM »
BBF,  Thanks.

What, generally speaking, would you feel would be a just cause to lead you to secessionist thoughts?  Examples?




to the Moderator:  Didn't mean to step out of the sub-forum subject matter.  Thought that this forum was the best place to put this based on recent threads.  If you feel that it should be moved I'd rather you just ax the thread.

Thanks, lc

Offline BBF

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Re: Time to secede?
« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2008, 01:30:41 PM »
First let me point out to you that I am a Canadian living in Canada.

For many years I lived in British Columbia which was a "Have" Province meaning it sent more tax $ to Ottawa then getting back through their equalization  program. In example  Alberta was robbed by the Quebec PM Trudeau for a huge amount of $$ that the Province had from their oil profits.Alberta was another "Have"  Province.

Over the years and several Prime Minister's most from Ontario or even worse from Quebec, the West was almost totally ignored by Ottawa unless they needed money. There was a movement afoot to secede from Canada with 3 Provinces to join up with the State of Washington to become " Cascadia" Nothing ever became of it.

 I can't tell you what would be the straw that broke the camel's back however I do think, getting control of your present Fed Govt would be easier then starting a new country and that is not making light of the fact that your Fed Govt is in more of a mess then ever before.

You need to start with local school boards, libraries etc, city and county officials then your own State. Be ruthless in voting out liberals and any so called initiatives that smell leftist.
Truly though I think that it might just be too late .
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Offline Ga.windbreak

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Re: Time to secede?
« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2008, 02:20:32 PM »
At any time when the people feel that their present government is acting differently than it was set up by the people in the first place and there have to be fanatics to carry this thru to the end.

Example: Democratic Germany becoming a dictatorship. A prime example of a few overthrowing a legal government by means of fear and bullying of the masses. And please don't say it couldn't happen here. If we lose a city to the terrorist and the Home Security plan is implimented there goes our civil liberties.

 How do we ever get them back? And will the will of the people be strong enough to do so, in the first place? Secession might be the only answer if the system no longer works as it should.
"Men do not differ about what
Things they will call evils;
They differ enormously about what evils
They will call excusable." - G.K. Chesterton

"It starts when you begin to overlook bad manners. Anytime you quit hearing "sir" and "ma'am", the end is pretty much in sight."-Tommy Lee Jones in No Country for Old Men

Private John Walker Roberts CSA 19th Battalion Georgia Cavalry - Loyalty is a most precious trait - RIP

Offline littlecanoe

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Re: Time to secede?
« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2008, 02:26:54 PM »
Thanks gentlemen.

It would seem that tyranny is never dead.  There seems to be a never ending line of those who plot and support governments that would steal that which we hold dear.  We, as conservatives, have not been eternally vigilant to protect our freedom.

BBT, I'll confess to not knowing enough of our northern neighbors history.  It would appear that worldwide, the left has a prolonged and determined battle plan. 

When we break it down there are many similarities in what we see happening and events that led up to our two wars for liberty.

Offline williamlayton

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Re: Time to secede?
« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2008, 11:01:42 PM »
Read some history of Huey P Long in Louisiana.
Secsession is nothing more than a coup. It makes less sense than revolution---and I am against either.
We have a system that allows the peaceful overthrow of the government---called the vote. They did and we didn't.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline littlecanoe

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Re: Time to secede?
« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2008, 02:37:15 AM »
WL,

That sounds nice and fluffy but the language "throw off" isn't talking about the vote. 

Does any people ever have the right or responsibility to "throw off" their government?


Offline williamlayton

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Re: Time to secede?
« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2008, 03:08:49 AM »
Because of the diversity of America today secession may bring about internal state rebellion. It is not the same as in 1860 when diversity was not a concern.
Another Civil War would be very chaotic and result in complete collapse of society.
Look at the fall of the USSR and the satellite nations today for good examples.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline BBF

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Re: Time to secede?
« Reply #9 on: November 16, 2008, 06:16:44 AM »
 When you write " having the Right" to overthrow the question of " Right" becomes an issue. Do you mean in a legal sense? I don't think there is any such thing in your Constitution to support that.

I won't speculate on any UN or World Court decisions because in the past they have shown to  be useless at least the UN.
From a non legal point of view there would be reasons.
A Govt that forces a specific religion or an outright ban on practicing all religions,
the imposition of a different language. A mandatory program of the number or gender of children a couple can have, euthanasia  for all common folks at a given age. These would certainly be an acceptable reason for me to call for an all out revolt.

 Re Canada: Although our form of Govt is based on the British Parliament system that is designed to be  more stable and less subject of numerous and radical changes as is possible in your Republic we do have one "emergency brake" if all goes out of control.

The British Crown, at present Queen Elisabeth II is also the Queen of Canada and has authority to dissolve any current Canadian Govt if civil unrest would endanger the very fabric of this country.
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Offline BBF

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Re: Time to secede?
« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2008, 06:22:17 AM »
William:
I don't see that chaos in all the former Soviet Blocs as you do. It isn't all smooth sailing, in some case the turbulence is directly caused by NATO.

BTW. The communists in those places are not gone, they have learned and adapted but are still in control they  just don't identify themselves as Communist.
What is the point of Life if you can't have fun.

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Time to secede?
« Reply #11 on: November 16, 2008, 06:50:33 AM »
For your answer turn to the oldest legal document in US history the Declaration of Independence. It tells you all you need to know and set the legal precedent for secession. You just gotta have the power and fortitude to carry it thru. It will be deemed legal ONLY if you win.


Bill aka the Graybeard
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I am not a lawyer and do not give legal advice.

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Offline phalanx

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Re: Time to secede?
« Reply #12 on: November 16, 2008, 12:01:44 PM »
It isnt a question of recognizing forgiven Governments ,they will recognize you ,and contact you as well.
For instance ,look at the Map of the election is 2004 ,not this one because it is a lie.
The red states all share a common border with each other ,stretching down to Texas ,and including the south.
Texas is KEY to survival and must be protected at all cost.
It has the Deep water ports that will be needed for the commerce to keep this new Country alive and allow it to flourish.
I disagree about Chaos ,sure the war will be ,but a lot of factors come into play here.
One is the fact that the red states hold the Majority of all the Oil and Mineral reserves ,the east holds nothing except the people who place yokes on us ,and threaten us constanty now.  Ports in the east ? for what ,shipments of food stamps and welfair from other country's ?
California itself will divide ,the rest will be the Reconquesta from Mexico almost over night.
The east rides on the work produced by the mid west and South ,with out it, like say tomorrow , the east is broke ,in debt ,dependent on welfair ,unskilled ,and gangs and crime will all but consume most, if not all of its limited resources.
The main man power they could call on is basically nothing ,after the people see the Liberals are sinking under the weight of the society of fools they have made for themselves.
The Red states however ,have work ethics ,newer factory's ,most of the real money and Military bases ,and some of the nukes ,very important if a split happened . Obama would have no trouble makeing a hole where the Red states were.
The problem will not be the makeing of this new Country ,it will be controlling its borders, because the red states will look like life rafts around the Titanic.
Strategist have pondered this scenario , and they say if the Red states do it quickly and stand strong and defiant,it may be no war occurs at all.
That is IF we act soon ,the Liberal plan with our Borders is to double the size of the Mexicans living in the mid west and south .
They will also be the welfair crowd for the most part , you know where their votes will go and you know why.
This will end up makeing the entire US a blue Country. This is said to be the outlook in 2010 and 2012 ,if there is even any elections then.
The Promises the Liberals make ,and the taxes they will need,will come from your hard work bothers ,it isnt a question of secession for saving the American way of life and freedom only ,it is a fact of do you want to be pushed into slavery.
People here can argue with me all they want , Obama is a Racist , and that will become very clear if not now.
He doesn't fear the East ,he fears us ,and our guns are the only thing stopping him.
The West & South is the Country for the most part now  ,the East is its tyrant , No questions on is it legal to secede ,our write your representatives ,or vote them out.
LOOK ,what representatives ,what laws ,have we seen lately ,,this man is avoiding courts ,and every law this Country ever made. And nothing brings him down ,nothing. If he hasnt been arrested or exposed yet ,do you think him going against anything else we believe is going to matter to him? NO.
Alaska will Go Red ,but it can not defend itself alone , that is my next answers.
Russia Hates Obama i don't care what anyone says , and ask yourself or deltecs ,why does Putin respect Palin ?
There is a good reason why , and it is a little secret the press doesn't need to know.
Putin hates Obama ,the phone call from the Russian President the Media made into such a wonderful thing ? you haven't heard much about it lately have you. It wasn't to be a friendly visit , And Putin now placing  Missles all over the place , If you were him and you saw what is going on in America wouldn't you ? Obama is as unstable to them as Iran is or was to us.
China ,NO China is not propping up Obama ,nor does China want anything to do with him. WHY? because their economy is in the dumps also ,we owe them money and for them to hurt us in any way means they have lost a major buyer of their goods ,and if Obama has his way !!! you can't get money out of slaves ,or people who spread the wealth ,only an America back at work and happy can do that.
Obama is as Putin said ,a Muslim ,the money he gets is from places in the middle east who teamed up with Chicago crooks and you see what we have now ,rich Chicago crooks.
Iran is tossing Achmadiajad out ,he was angry because a news paper there put Obamas face on it saying, Why don't we have one of these.
Who controls Him ,Russia. Obamas God status is spreading all over the globe , but mostly in Islam.
It was said , this isnt going to be a Civil War as much as it is a war between  Christianity ,and Islam.
This Pope has already attacked Islam for what it is , he was told to be quiet...  He was an officer in the Hitler youth ,and he fought the Russians until they ran out of ammunition and was captured.
He knows what Obama is because he has seen this before , and he is constant communication with Putin on these matters ,Putin believe it or not, is a Christian...He has meet with this Pope an several occasions.
Obama knows that with only his word alone ,this Pope could brings Billions to his side , and as Pope he is angry at the Church in the US for having anything to do with Obama.
This boils down to when someone is refering to this faith watch what they call it , Catholic ,is the PC liberal party within the Church , Roman Catholic is the conservative Party.
During all the turmoil about the Priest messing with little boys  ,and all the other stuff you all remember ,the Church rushed this man into that position over night. He is Roman Catholic ,old school , and he will fight if need be.
What can a Pope do ? Crusades mean anything , or supplying money and arms to Israel in the three day war.
So ,the Red states would have far more support than anyone could imagine , and if they do not do this ,one day looking back when GOD gave them the chance ,they will wish they had taken it.
People, it is no longer a question of should we ,it is an answer of we better.
Obama expects this ,he has written pages on the reconstruction after the war.
And if it were not for the Internet ,none of us would know the scope of what all of this means.
And it has been allowed to stay online only because they watch places like this ,and look at people like me ,so they will know what we are doing and thinking.
And these voices will vanish soon , like the Birth certificate ,the Grandmothers funeral , the law suites ,all of it.
I am not advocating anything ,i am telling you what you all know , its up to you the choice is yours.
Cool heads are good ,foolish heads are not.
But we should organize a committee ,of Governors or what ever ,and approach Washington in a civil manner and tell them to stop the BS. We are not stupid ,and we have rights we mean to keep ,and at least see if an agreement can be reached.
This really needs to be done , it will give us credibility and show the world what they are waiting to see.
In this time i Command ,That you take the Secular to Jerusalem .
There you rid the Holy City of the Scourge of Islam , Make the streets run red with the Blood of those who wish to wash Israel and Christianity from the face of the Earth.
Constantine III

Offline littlecanoe

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Re: Time to secede?
« Reply #13 on: November 16, 2008, 12:17:48 PM »
GB  very true.

BBF,  The right, as the founding fathers saw it, was a God-given right to be free.

Phalanx, you posted as I was responding so I'll have to read what you typed.

Offline littlecanoe

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Re: Time to secede?
« Reply #14 on: November 16, 2008, 12:25:05 PM »
Phalanx,

Read your post.  Some interesting points to consider.

As a disclaimer, I should say that I didn't mean to start a "Let's secede" Thread but was interested in the philosophy that leads a people to the point of feeling this necessary.

WL. LOL   I've been trying to back you into a corner and you just won't go!! 
My last try.  Were the colonials right in revolting against Charlie?  (At least give a nibble!) ;)

Offline williamlayton

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Re: Time to secede?
« Reply #15 on: November 16, 2008, 01:27:37 PM »
You are judged right if you win--lose and history will have cartoonist drawing funny pictures making you an oaf.
Lets see here. Georgia secedes. Do the culturally diverse roll over or do they take issue and create havoc.
Atlanta would be a zone of chaos and warfare. If Atlanta is lost so goes the state.
Same in all the states.
Lot more difficult these days than in 18 and 60.
What do you do for air cover.
Ft Benning may be a little more difficult too overcome than a small fort in 1860.
let's not create the same mistake as in 1860. Let's give ourselves a chance to win and if we can't lets look for another way.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline williamlayton

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Re: Time to secede?
« Reply #16 on: November 16, 2008, 04:05:46 PM »
LC & SBG & GW
I will admit you boys are persistant and do a good job  :D ;).
It just ain't my first rodeo either.
Y'all keep it up, I enjoy.
 :-*
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline Ga.windbreak

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Re: Time to secede?
« Reply #17 on: November 17, 2008, 04:49:16 AM »
You are judged right if you win--lose and history will have cartoonist drawing funny pictures making you an oaf.
Lets see here. Georgia secedes. Do the culturally diverse roll over or do they take issue and create havoc.
Atlanta would be a zone of chaos and warfare. If Atlanta is lost so goes the state.
Same in all the states.
Lot more difficult these days than in 18 and 60.
What do you do for air cover.
Ft Benning may be a little more difficult too overcome than a small fort in 1860.
let's not create the same mistake as in 1860. Let's give ourselves a chance to win and if we can't lets look for another way.
Blessings

With all due respect to those living in Atlanta who are southern (there are a few) we who live in the rest of Ga. wouldn't give the lost of Hotlanta any thought at all WL.!!

GB you are so right, first and formost, you gotta win the dang thing!! Won or not it was and still is a worthy fight to defend our civil liberties.

"Men do not differ about what
Things they will call evils;
They differ enormously about what evils
They will call excusable." - G.K. Chesterton

"It starts when you begin to overlook bad manners. Anytime you quit hearing "sir" and "ma'am", the end is pretty much in sight."-Tommy Lee Jones in No Country for Old Men

Private John Walker Roberts CSA 19th Battalion Georgia Cavalry - Loyalty is a most precious trait - RIP

Offline SouthernByGrace

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Re: Time to secede?
« Reply #18 on: November 18, 2008, 02:37:49 AM »
Sorry to be away so long guys. I had some computer issues, but all is as it should be now.

I've got a lot of reading to catch up on, but I'll get there.

GW, you are SOOOO right about Hotlanta. I'm sure you are familiar with the saying around south Ga. that there are actually TWO Georgias. First, there is Atlanta, then there is the REST of Georgia. That place is a world all to itself...

I'm gonna go get caught up on all of your posts and I'll see y'all in a while. Being without my computer has seemed like the candy store was closed for a while. Boy, am I glad to see it open again... LOL
"Let us cross over the river and rest under the shade of the trees..."
Final words spoken by Gen. Thomas J. (Stonewall) Jackson, CSA

Offline littlecanoe

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Re: Time to secede?
« Reply #19 on: November 18, 2008, 12:50:15 PM »
WL,

You're crackin' !!  Step on over to the dark side!  The water's warm.......... ;D


LC & SBG & GW
I will admit you boys are persistant and do a good job  :D ;).
It just ain't my first rodeo either.
Y'all keep it up, I enjoy.
 :-*
Blessings

Offline BBF

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Re: Time to secede?
« Reply #20 on: November 19, 2008, 05:58:02 AM »
Where does God say you have a right to be free?
What is the point of Life if you can't have fun.

Offline phalanx

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Re: Time to secede?
« Reply #21 on: November 19, 2008, 04:05:09 PM »
BBF ,where does it say we are to be slaves ?




Americans need to look at this now.
In this time i Command ,That you take the Secular to Jerusalem .
There you rid the Holy City of the Scourge of Islam , Make the streets run red with the Blood of those who wish to wash Israel and Christianity from the face of the Earth.
Constantine III

Offline littlecanoe

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Re: Time to secede?
« Reply #22 on: November 19, 2008, 05:39:41 PM »
BBF,  Good question and enough to start a huge tangent conversation.

Another question to ask is CAN ANYONE ever be free?

Freedom can be expressed in the ability to earn money and use it as one sees fit without the fear of another or others taking it away.

Our founding fathers felt that freedom, as expressed by life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, was indeed a God-Given gift.  I believe that you find this as an indirect truth that would be found in the story of Adam and Eve.  You would have to consider their natural state prior to and following the fall. 

I would say that before the fall they were Truly Free.  After the fall, they were enslaved to sin and time.  Within that framework there is a type of freedom. 

Our founding fathers would have understood that no Magistrate, at any level, was given total authority by God.  Biblical teaching leaves the understanding that Magistrates are put in place by God for the good of the people.  As such, they answer to Him for the way that they rule.  Our Founders thought along the lines of covenants, contractual agreements that bound and gave responsibility to both parties.  The Magistrate(s) were responsible to the People and the People were responsible to the Magistrate(s).  This logic is why they were justified in declaring their Independence from England and the King.  The King had assumed a level of power over them that did not give them due course, power not sanctioned by God.  Mosaic Law outlines governmental roles and responsibilities.  This excessive wielding of power, in turn, broke the covenant that they had and compromised their right of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness; freedom.

This doctrine would have been understood by most Colonials as it is Reformed teaching and most of the churches represented in the colonies were Reformed in doctrine.  A short 80 odd years after the founding of this country, this doctrinal understanding would still have been understood by many of those who decided to fight for freedom once more.

I'm sure that there is error in my presentation and likely in my argument.  However, this is how I understand freedom and the right/responsibility of a people to guard it.  I've come to these conclusions after asking, for years, how our Founding fathers could have rebelled against English rule without sinning in God's eyes.  After beginning to understand reformed thought I was able to make some connections.

Offline williamlayton

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Re: Time to secede?
« Reply #23 on: November 19, 2008, 10:55:36 PM »
Freedom is its own slavery  :o 8) :-X :-*
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline littlecanoe

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Re: Time to secede?
« Reply #24 on: November 20, 2008, 03:10:38 AM »
Now there's a hand grenade!!  LOL

Offline BBF

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Re: Time to secede?
« Reply #25 on: November 22, 2008, 06:50:35 AM »
I have a problem accepting most anything that would involve "God Given"
Unless it would state a specific freedom or right in Scripture and the authenticity of that document is questionable for me, it all depends on what side you are on.
For the peasant/commoner it means something very different then for a King or Emperor that is anointed by the church to rule.
What is the point of Life if you can't have fun.

Offline Ga.windbreak

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Re: Time to secede?
« Reply #26 on: November 22, 2008, 07:31:06 AM »
Freedom is its own slavery  :o 8) :-X :-*
Blessings

Freedom does not and never has meant to be to be able to do anything you want at any time. True freedom brings with it the responsibility to be accountable for your actions. I liken it to kite flying. A kite is truly free to fly only when its controlled by the string of the flyer, cut the string and the kite will not fly.

Are we, as a country truly free? No we are not. I give you the most basic example to prove my point. Seat belts and the requirement to wear them, we aren't free to chose but are required to wear them for our own safety. Now is that true? No because if it were truly for our safety then school buses would have them, would they not? The government isn't worried about our safety, its worries about just how many ways it can tax us and get away with it.

No, we are not free.
"Men do not differ about what
Things they will call evils;
They differ enormously about what evils
They will call excusable." - G.K. Chesterton

"It starts when you begin to overlook bad manners. Anytime you quit hearing "sir" and "ma'am", the end is pretty much in sight."-Tommy Lee Jones in No Country for Old Men

Private John Walker Roberts CSA 19th Battalion Georgia Cavalry - Loyalty is a most precious trait - RIP

Offline williamlayton

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Re: Time to secede?
« Reply #27 on: November 23, 2008, 03:17:00 AM »
BOY OH BOY--Freedom isn't free and freedom is not caused by law. Laws are a binder. Laws do not guarentee that you will not die. Some laws are better taken as suggestions. Some laws are there just so reporting can be accomplished and the bean counters have work.
We are focusing on laws---not on freedom.
Again, freedom creates/advocates/promotes slavery too each other.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline Ga.windbreak

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Re: Time to secede?
« Reply #28 on: November 24, 2008, 10:47:31 AM »
BOY OH BOY--Freedom isn't free and freedom is not caused by law. Laws are a binder. Laws do not guarentee that you will not die. Some laws are better taken as suggestions. Some laws are there just so reporting can be accomplished and the bean counters have work.
We are focusing on laws---not on freedom.
Again, freedom creates/advocates/promotes slavery too each other.
Blessings

BOY OH BOY! No need to yell WL. I merely used the seat belt law to show that we as individuals have no say in the matter of the wearing of said belts. Here in Ga. Its called "Click it or ticket it" I'm sure Texas must have a similar saying, do they not? And I repeat, once again, its not about our safety it about the government finding yet another way to get money from us under the pretext of knowing what is in our best interest; which of course means that we are to stupid to know, right?
"Men do not differ about what
Things they will call evils;
They differ enormously about what evils
They will call excusable." - G.K. Chesterton

"It starts when you begin to overlook bad manners. Anytime you quit hearing "sir" and "ma'am", the end is pretty much in sight."-Tommy Lee Jones in No Country for Old Men

Private John Walker Roberts CSA 19th Battalion Georgia Cavalry - Loyalty is a most precious trait - RIP

Offline littlecanoe

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Re: Time to secede?
« Reply #29 on: November 24, 2008, 03:12:40 PM »
Ga WB,  Thanks for that link.  Priceless.  For everything else there's Mastercard.

Here is Mr. Lincoln on Secession.  Dr. Jeckle?   "Yes"?   Meet Mr. Hyde!

Quote 1

"...they [the South] commenced by an insidious debauching of the public mind. They invented an ingenious sophism which, if conceded, was followed by perfectly logical steps, through all the incidents, to the complete destruction of the Union. The sophism itself is that any State of the Union may consistently with the national Constitution, and therefore lawfully and peacefully, withdraw from the Union without the consent of the Union or of any other State." ~ Lincoln, in his Special Message to Congress July 4 1861.

Quote 2

"Any people, anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better. This is a most valuable, a most sacred right, a right which we hope and believe is to liberate the world. Nor is this right confined to cases in which the whole people of an existing government may choose to exercise it. Any portion of such people, that can, may revolutionize, and make their own of so much of the territory as they inhabit. More than this, a majority of any portion of such people may revolutionize, putting down a minority, intermingled with, or near about them, who may oppose their movements." ~ Lincoln January 12 1848, expressing the near-universally held Jeffersonian principle, before Lincoln unilaterally destroyed it, that no state could claim its inhabitants as its property.


Will the real Mr. Lincoln please stand up?  Oh......... I think he did....................... :(