Author Topic: Time to secede? (Read 4022 times)

Gary G · « **Reply #30 on:** November 24, 2008, 04:01:01 PM »

When the Big Fed. government finally destroys our currency and our economy, and realizes the loss of all it's power (and it ain't far off) we will all fall to our safety net, the Constitution. People will remember, like the people in Josiah's time.

Ga.windbreak · « **Reply #31 on:** November 24, 2008, 10:05:04 PM »

Quote from: littlecanoe on November 24, 2008, 03:12:40 PM

Ga WB, Thanks for that link. Priceless. For everything else there's Mastercard.

Here is Mr. Lincoln on Secession. Dr. Jeckle? "Yes"? Meet Mr. Hyde!

Quote 1

"...they [the South] commenced by an insidious debauching of the public mind. They invented an ingenious sophism which, if conceded, was followed by perfectly logical steps, through all the incidents, to the complete destruction of the Union. The sophism itself is that any State of the Union may consistently with the national Constitution, and therefore lawfully and peacefully, withdraw from the Union without the consent of the Union or of any other State." ~ Lincoln, in his Special Message to Congress July 4 1861.

Quote 2

"Any people, anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better. This is a most valuable, a most sacred right, a right which we hope and believe is to liberate the world. Nor is this right confined to cases in which the whole people of an existing government may choose to exercise it. Any portion of such people, that can, may revolutionize, and make their own of so much of the territory as they inhabit. More than this, a majority of any portion of such people may revolutionize, putting down a minority, intermingled with, or near about them, who may oppose their movements." ~ Lincoln January 12 1848, expressing the near-universally held Jeffersonian principle, before Lincoln unilaterally destroyed it, that no state could claim its inhabitants as its property.

Will the real Mr. Lincoln please stand up? Oh......... I think he did.......................

No problem lc and you are right, of course, ole honest Abe the original One Eyed Jack!

williamlayton · « **Reply #32 on:** November 25, 2008, 01:15:00 AM »

I agree whole heartily. But then, you have created a conflict which must result in war too win this right.
If you don't win the war----you loose.
Blessings

phalanx · « **Reply #33 on:** November 25, 2008, 09:24:15 AM »

Texas is under a lot of stress these days. The Texans are all getting that attitude lately like we are TEXAS!!!
Outside pressures are on Perry, who isn't going public much lately.
Texas is the only real State to actually be an independent Country once ,so they have this pride about that,and they fall back on it during hard times,
Bush who isn't looking to pleased lately will soon be going home ,to Crawford , Some people in Washington are wondering if once he is on his home turf if he will start acting totally different.
Texas has already thrown out the Trans American Highway form going through their State.

williamlayton · « **Reply #34 on:** December 03, 2008, 12:01:35 AM »

The Bush's are a political family.
I wish I may I wish I might.
What is it that we must do--not wish--for our desires too be met? It certainly is not the desire of the majority.
Blessings

Ga.windbreak · « **Reply #35 on:** December 03, 2008, 03:21:16 AM »

Quote from: phalanx on November 25, 2008, 09:24:15 AM

Texas is under a lot of stress these days. The Texans are all getting that attitude lately like we are TEXAS!!!
Outside pressures are on Perry, who isn't going public much lately.
Texas is the only real State to actually be an independent Country once ,so they have this pride about that,and they fall back on it during hard times,
Bush who isn't looking to pleased lately will soon be going home ,to Crawford , Some people in Washington are wondering if once he is on his home turf if he will start acting totally different.
Texas has already thrown out the Trans American Highway form going through their State.

Sure glad that happened!!

phalanx · « **Reply #36 on:** December 03, 2008, 05:35:01 AM »

Ga. I just hope they hold out on it , But even if the Gov. pushes it Texas has a thousand law suites lined up that would stall it forever.
One thing Texas didn't like was Texas with her gold reserve was supposed to pay out 30% of a Road it didn't even want !
Part of the Anger brewing there was Obama intends to remove that gold as being needed to help States meet their budgets next year.
The way Pelosi is handing out Billions of Dollars it has to be to make the Fed. go broke , and this money once the Company's get it is going to turn around and be useless.
But the Gov.will still own the Company.
A big fight is going to be coming over the gold reserves in the Lone Star , that gold has belonged to that State for over 100 years now ,and she earned every penny of it
Florida is next on the hit list ,she has all that treasure from the Atocha , and other sunken ships.
Estimated at over 165 Billion Dollars.
It looks like Obama has to get rid of gold to make his economic plan work.

littlecanoe · « **Reply #37 on:** December 03, 2008, 01:03:14 PM »

Gents, we've drifted off my indented purpose for this thread. That's OK though because the discussion has been good.

Let's get specific. Please give some focused responses to the following questions. Be specific. Please, no general statements that don't take us anywhere.

1. Were the founding fathers justified in their revolution? Define why you believe what you believe.

2. When is any people, a general look at a body of people, justified in defining the right to self rule?

phalanx · « **Reply #38 on:** December 03, 2008, 01:30:27 PM »

Darn it littlecanoe me and the boys was just funnin , but you are right.
Im gonna need to think on that one, so if you smell wood burning its OK.

littlecanoe · « **Reply #39 on:** December 03, 2008, 01:48:04 PM »

phalanx, No harm done. Really. I was enjoying the conversation. Good stuff there.

Gary G · « **Reply #40 on:** December 03, 2008, 05:13:19 PM »

Quote from: littlecanoe on December 03, 2008, 01:03:14 PM

Gents, we've drifted off my indented purpose for this thread. That's OK though because the discussion has been good.

Let's get specific. Please give some focused responses to the following questions. Be specific. Please, no general statements that don't take us anywhere.

1. Were the founding fathers justified in their revolution? Define why you believe what you believe.

2. When is any people, a general look at a body of people, justified in defining the right to self rule?

Here are some Thomas Jefferson quotes that apply to the questions:

A Bill of Rights is what the people are entitled to against every government, and what no just government should refuse, or rest on inference.
(Do you know what rights you are supposed to have?)

A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor and bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government.

Every government degenerates when trusted to the rulers of the people alone. The people themselves are its only safe depositories.

Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny.

I have no fear that the result of our experiment will be that men may be trusted to govern themselves without a master.

I know of no safe depository of the ultimate powers of the society but the people themselves; and if we think them not enlightened enough to exercise their control with a wholesome discretion, the remedy is not to take it from them but to inform their discretion.

I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.

Leave no authority existing not responsible to the people.

My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government.

Our country is now taking so steady a course as to show by what road it will pass to destruction, to wit: by consolidation of power first, and then corruption, its necessary consequence.

Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual.

So confident am I in the intentions, as well as wisdom, of the government, that I shall always be satisfied that what is not done, either cannot, or ought not to be done.

That government is best which governs the least, because its people discipline themselves.

The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not.

The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.

We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

Ga.windbreak · « **Reply #41 on:** December 03, 2008, 10:01:43 PM »

Gary G great post. Thomas Jefferson has just the right way to put, into words, what we all feel.

Now to your questions lc.

1.Of course they were if for no other reason than taxation without representation but it goes deeper than that. The very idea of true freedom; where a person takes full responsibility for oneself is laughed at and misunderstood by most, even today. You say no, then please explain to me the lack of turnout to vote esp. during off years. People don't care and that is caused by only two reasons. 1. Just plain lazy or 2. they don't understand that by not voting they are giving up their right to have that very freedom that they think they enjoy.

2.When they know that they are being ruled without any say as to how it is being done. Case in point: The Bailout of 2008.

This is where we are today: "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them." We have been unable to prevent it.

williamlayton · « **Reply #42 on:** December 04, 2008, 01:16:15 AM »

Specifically!
Laws do not prevent---can't prevent.
They may advise of a penalty.
Rebellion and civil war are always an option. HOW can you prevent several hundred from doing so? You can't.
Now, the question is can we secede? YES.
Then comes the question, "what must be accomplished for it too really be a secession?"
Remember the Conch (sp) republic? It didn't create a republic. It was ignored by the folks in the keys and it is business as usual today.
To make yourownself a Republic you are going too have need too remove any and all foreign influence. Cut the ties that bind. Do that and you are sovereign. Don't do that and you are a cartoon fool.
Blessings

williamlayton · « **Reply #43 on:** December 04, 2008, 01:34:53 AM »

Now, about this gold thing.
The scriptures speak specifally too this.
Neither a debtor or a lender be.
Gold will be tarnished and worthless in the end.
If you owe no one you will be free of being a slave.
manipulation of gold will cause debt too rise and debt is the cause of slavery.
Blessings

Gary G · « **Reply #44 on:** December 04, 2008, 03:29:29 AM »

Quote from: williamlayton on December 04, 2008, 01:34:53 AM

Now, about this gold thing.
The scriptures speak specifally too this.
Neither a debtor or a lender be.
Gold will be tarnished and worthless in the end.
If you owe no one you will be free of being a slave.
manipulation of gold will cause debt too rise and debt is the cause of slavery.
Blessings

Gold is a scarce resource. It has historically been a medium for exchange; therein lies it's value. Paper money, as long as it is in short supply, can have value if the people except it as such. Too much and it becomes worthless. We are on that road it seems. Zimbabwe comes to mind. Gold can never become worthless as long as it is scarce and as long as people are on earth. Somebody will want it. Now gold stays pretty much stable. As paper currency devalues, it takes more of them to buy an ounce of gold. Now an ounce of gold and a grown cow have pretty much the same value. In ten years, they will still be about the same value, but either may cost thousands of dollars. Inflation is not prices going up. It is more paper money being inflated into the system for the same amount of goods. The paper devalues thus taking more of them to buy something. Higher prices are not inflation, but the result if inflation.

Inflation is an invisible and tyrannic tax on the people. The Fed prints the money and it devalues our savings (each dollar has less value). We loose our buying power and the government gains it. The first to spend it gets full value before prices rise, and that is the government and the central banks. Poor people are the last in line. That is the bailout my friends. Remember, congress passed it against the will of the people.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
LC, I believe the South could have won the war if it had never fired a shot nor imposed a standing army. Even the Northern newspapers said, "let them go and pray they come back later". Of course, it would have been a win without a war, but that is good. Jefferson also said that "the gains of war are always smaller than that which was lost".

Would they have created less government and greater liberty as in the beginning of our nation? No one will ever know.

williamlayton · « **Reply #45 on:** December 04, 2008, 03:48:20 AM »

Therefore, my conclusions.
They could have been ignored but then NC and that Fort.
If they ignore any Soverign US territory with in a Soverign Nation have they in fact seceded?
Blessings

Gary G · « **Reply #46 on:** December 04, 2008, 04:14:19 AM »

Quote from: williamlayton on December 04, 2008, 03:48:20 AM

Therefore, my conclusions.
They could have been ignored but then NC and that Fort.
If they ignore any Soverign US territory with in a Soverign Nation have they in fact seceded?
Blessings

Would that be any different than a foreign embassy?

williamlayton · « **Reply #47 on:** December 04, 2008, 10:09:11 AM »

You can't have an embassy unless you are invited too.
This is a fort and it was not granted that privledge by treaty as was Gitmo and the Canal. There were many more Forts also.
Brownsville was abandoned after war broke out only too never be a consequence due too blockade.
Now, if you begin this war you are bound too it, and too the rule that too the winner goes the spoil.
Blessings

Gary G · « **Reply #48 on:** December 04, 2008, 12:14:26 PM »

Who said war? Think MLK.

We certainly have reasons.

In the beginning we had freedom, liberty, and free markets. We became a prosperous nation, even providing for a fast growing population.

Then:
"In the United States, the process of statization began in earnest under cover of Lincoln's Civil War (conscription, military rule, income tax, excise taxes, high tariffs, national banking and credit expansion for favored businesses, paper money, land grants to railroads)".
http://mises.org/story/3232

littlecanoe · « **Reply #49 on:** December 04, 2008, 02:49:18 PM »

Gary G. asked: Would they have created less government and greater liberty as in the beginning of our nation? No one will ever know.

I believe, based on their words, that this is indeed what they were doing and in fact did in the ordering of the new government. I'm stepping outside my knowledge here but I'm gonna bet that they intended and set up a government that was Republic in nature and one that kept control at the state level.

littlecanoe · « **Reply #50 on:** December 04, 2008, 02:50:23 PM »

The very idea of true freedom; where a person takes full responsibility for oneself is laughed at and misunderstood by most, even today.

Is this not what we all long for?

littlecanoe · « **Reply #51 on:** December 04, 2008, 02:53:10 PM »

Ga wb, Thanks for trying to take us back on track.

Let me restate the original question of this thread. Let's not use the present unhappiness with our government as fodder for discussion but go a step above that to the philosophical/ideal/principle based.

Original Question follows:

Please share your thoughts on WHEN does any people have the right and/or responsibility to move away from a government?

If you feel that no people ever have the right to leave, please state the reason for that also.

Dee · « **Reply #52 on:** December 04, 2008, 03:55:24 PM »

Quote from: Ga.windbreak on November 24, 2008, 10:47:31 AM

Quote from: williamlayton on November 23, 2008, 03:17:00 AM
BOY OH BOY--Freedom isn't free and freedom is not caused by law. Laws are a binder. Laws do not guarentee that you will not die. Some laws are better taken as suggestions. Some laws are there just so reporting can be accomplished and the bean counters have work.
We are focusing on laws---not on freedom.
Again, freedom creates/advocates/promotes slavery too each other.
Blessings

BOY OH BOY! No need to yell WL. I merely used the seat belt law to show that we as individuals have no say in the matter of the wearing of said belts. Here in Ga. Its called "Click it or ticket it" I'm sure Texas must have a similar saying, do they not? And I repeat, once again, its not about our safety it about the government finding yet another way to get money from us under the pretext of knowing what is in our best interest; which of course means that we are to stupid to know, right?

Your example is dead on Gawindbreak. Another more graphic one in regards to freedom and traffic laws. Here in Texas if a police officer is watching an intersection and this occurs. My wife pulls up to the stop sign in here 2007 300 Chrysler. A very safe care, however she has no seat belt on. Next to her, a 16 year old pulls up on a street legal dirt bike, with no shirt, shoes, or helmet wearing a bathing suit. WHO DOES HE STOP AND TICKET? Answer: My wife. REASON GIVEN? Safety issue.

How do I know? 20 years Law Enforcement (retired). Never wrote a seat belt ticket. EVER!
Want another? Marijuana vs Jack Daniels. LEAVE OUT THE OTHER DRUGS, ain't talk in about them. Whiskey is legal, marijuana is not. I have seen far more lives ruined with whiskey than I have with common marijuana smokers. Why is one legal and the other not? Can't tax marijuana because it can be HOME GROWN.

Ga.windbreak · « **Reply #53 on:** December 04, 2008, 10:20:22 PM »

Thats a BIG two thumbs up Dee!!!

Dee · « **Reply #54 on:** December 05, 2008, 01:43:46 AM »

Texas secession? I was encouraged to run for sheriff several years ago against an incumbent. I did thru much economic help by local businesses. A state representative candidate whom was a friend was running on the ticket that his major qualification was that he was NOT A LAWYER. He won handily, I narrowly lost.
He later introduced a bill in Austin to make a point, but the bill itself was FACTUAL. His bill read that if Texas would secede from the union, that Texas, with all it's natural resources now freed from Federal Government control could now afford to fix it's roadways, guard it's borders, AND, give every child in the Nation of Texas a FREE COLLEGE EDUCATION. Hmmmmmmmmm

Sam Houston stated AFTER Texas won it's independence from Mexico. Quote: Texas can make it without the United States. Problem is, the United States cannot make it without Texas.

williamlayton · « **Reply #55 on:** December 05, 2008, 01:52:05 AM »

A county or a state has the ability and is not constrained BY law form secession at any moment.
It just needs too realize the consequences and responsibilities of this act.
If you are willing and you feel you must then you must,
On the same note you must also accept the consequences of this act.
Blessings

Ga.windbreak · « **Reply #56 on:** December 05, 2008, 09:14:27 PM »

I would be remiss if I didn't remind everyone that secession is the last step that one should take but by that same token, like a gun, if you are afraid or unsure to use it you might as well not have it! For it does you no good.

Faint heart NEVER won fair hand!

williamlayton · « **Reply #57 on:** December 06, 2008, 01:27:13 AM »

There is a method of revolution in this country. The vote.
Now a truly tyrannical government is another question. We do not have one yet and as much as you may disagree with this one---it can be a whole bunch worse.
Will be at some point in time.
Blessings

littlecanoe · « **Reply #58 on:** December 06, 2008, 03:05:31 AM »

Quote

There is a method of revolution in this country. The vote.
Now a truly tyrannical government is another question. We do not have one yet and as much as you may disagree with this one---it can be a whole bunch worse.
Will be at some point in time.
Blessings

The vote is useless. All you have to do is look at the propositions in California that have been overturned by Judges AFTER the masses voted their will.

How is our present government any less tyrannical than that of King George? Our founding fathers could easily have traveled the road of least resistance, maintained most of their wealth and died old men. However, they saw that the True Freedom of their offspring was a much greater legacy to leave.

Ga.windbreak · « **Reply #59 on:** December 06, 2008, 06:19:23 AM »

Quote from: littlecanoe on December 06, 2008, 03:05:31 AM

Quote
There is a method of revolution in this country. The vote.
Now a truly tyrannical government is another question. We do not have one yet and as much as you may disagree with this one---it can be a whole bunch worse.
Will be at some point in time.
Blessings

The vote is useless. All you have to do is look at the propositions in California that have been overturned by Judges AFTER the masses voted their will.

How is our present government any less tyrannical than that of King George? Our founding fathers could easily have traveled the road of least resistance, maintained most of their wealth and died old men. However, they saw that the True Freedom of their offspring was a much greater legacy to leave.

You got it!! Case in point, our wonderful Bailout. We vote people into congress to do our will and then they do whatever they want.

"There are things that gnaw on a man worse than death!"