Practice or Cartridge--Which Is More Important?

[Bart Solo]

I have been reading and enjoying Graybeard's site for some time now, but I wonder if all the talk about whether the 308 is better than the 30-06 or the 30-06 is better than the 7mm Win Mag or all of them are better than some other cartridge isn't a little silly.  The fact is if you hit any thin skinned deer sized animal in the chest with any thing from a 243 up, the result will be a quick, humane kill.  If you don't hit properly you are just going to leave a wounded animal to die a slow painful death. 

I wonder if we wouldn't be better off spending more time practicing? How many of us really spend serious time at the range, and if we do is sitting at a bench really effective hunting practice? 

As to evaluating caliber I also wonder if less isn't more when you are talking about deer sized animals?  I am not ready to join the .223 deer hunting club, but it seems to me that we might be better off with a 243 than a 7MM Rem Mag.  In the field I have never noticed the noise or the kick of any rifle, but on the range a loud, heavy recoil rifle could discourage the kind of practice every deer hunter needs.  I am making my suggestion for using a rifle that encourages practice because I am convinced the average guy doesn't shoot enough to become a good rifleman and the only way to become a good rifleman is to practice. 

This year Missouri instituted a 4 point rule. Only bucks with 4 or more points on one side, button and spike bucks less than three inches, and does are legal.  That meant a lot of time using binos to count points. It is funny, but the deer in our neck of the woods don't seem to want to wait while we measure.  They also seem a whole heck of a lot smarter and wary than the deer you see on the Outdoor Channel.

Over the weekend the only guy in our deer camp who came back with a deer was an old man using the same 30/30 model 94 lever action he has used successfully for the last 30 years.  The rest of us all had "better" rifles, two scope mounted 30-06s and a scope mounted 270, but he was the only one of us who had the confidence to quickly evaluate a moving deer (a doe) and take a snap shot in the woods. 

Last weekend the best deer caliber was the 30/30 in the hands of a good rifleman and a better hunter. . 
 
   

[charles p]

I've got a lot of the rifle calibers covered for deer in NC.  When I head for the woods, my firearm selection is determined mostly by the scope that will be best for the area I plan to hunt, and the weight of the rifle.  Obviously when I get a new rifle or scope I want to try it a few times but generally speaking, cartridge or caliber rarely figure in my decisions.  Confidence in my ability with a certain rifle can be a big factor.

[Swampman]

I shoot my hunting rifles twice a month.  I would shoot more than that, but I have to drive an hour to a range.  I don't take snap shots.  I don't take chest shots.  I've seen too many deer lost with chest shots.  I try to shoot through both front shoulders.

[Syncerus]

Dude, you're going to put the entire firearms industry out of business with your heresy.

LOL!

Bullet placement is king. Bullet placement is king. Bullet placement is king.

But buying new gear is also fun.

[teddy12b]

Bullet placement is king. Bullet placement is king. Bullet placement is king.

But buying new gear is also fun.

I couldn't agree more.  There's something to be said for spending as much time & ammo at the range as possible.  There's also something to be said for the right equipment. 

I would have to agree with Ron Byers that guys seem to argue over calibers like women argue over family recipies. 

This last weekend I hunted with a guy who's been out of the hunting loop for a long time and tried to shoot deer with his 20 gauge shotgun at 200 - 250 yards.  All he did was educate the deer not to come back.  A cousin of mine who's an avid hunter that I nick-named "gut-shot" always seems to draw blood, but also loose the animal.  Neither of these guys practice much, if at all despite how much I preach it to them. 

I think to be a good shot you need to fire around 100 rounds a month.  If you do that, there won't be too many shots you can't take.  Being able to shoot doesn't really make you a great hunter though either.  It takes time and effort to get being a good shot & good hunter to come together.  I still have my 30-30 and it's one of my favorite guns.

[SHOOTALL]

Now that is a loaded ?
starting off with ability as a marksman and ending with woods craft and a bunch in the middle . Being able to hit the kill zone of your target is important and only pratice allows a shooter to know that !
Any pratice from dry fire to shooting field positions is good a mix is best . cost vs. trigger time
Being able to ID a target is also important VERY important .
which brings up woods craft which in the end may prove the most important . IE. the ablity to See in the woods/field and react

[Bart Solo]

I shoot my hunting rifles twice a month.  I would shoot more than that, but I have to drive an hour to a range.  I don't take snap shots.  I don't take chest shots.  I've seen too many deer lost with chest shots.  I try to shoot through both front shoulders.

you must live in open country or hunt those deer that prance around in front of the camera crews on the Outdoor Channel. Here in the Missouri woods sometimes a quick shot is all you get.  To take it you have to know how.  The old man I was hunting with was happy, he shot the doe right through the heart. 

[SHOOTALL]

we are forced to use a shotgun and buck shot in some areas - we are happy to hit the deer sometimes when the dogs have them running in high gear .

[mcwoodduck]

I think the arguements of one caliber over another should be limited to a geographic area.  What may be the best deer round on our farm in NC would vary as to how you wanted to hunt.  We have ean fields that will offer a 1000 yard shot as well as thick pine groves that a 50 yard shot will be pushing it.  A lot of time Caliber has a lot to do with the size and type of rifle it is in.  Most of the belted mags need a 26" barrel to wring out the max velocity.  The long rifles are not as handy in the heavy woods.  But a belted mag would be perfect for a bean field gun where a 300 yard shot is the norm.  Not saying that a 308 with a short barrel could not do it but usually it would be set up with a low power scope to get a wide field of view to see the whole deer 30 yards away and not a small brown patch of fur, if the rifle is scoped at all.
Once a rifle and cartridge are selected for a given need then practice should start and the only way you are going to make those shots is to practice and practice how you shoot.  When I would shoot with my father he would get upset if I would use the bench or lay down to get tighter groups.  He would simply say "good shooting but you'll never shoot a deer from that position"  We would hunt in upstate NY at the time and there was not going to be anything other than an off hand shot or one seated from a tree stand.  When I shot my first Mule deer in MT three years ago I was prone.  So when I go to the range to practice I shoot in all positions and bring objects I will use in the field like back packs, bipods, and folding chairs that I will use in the field and may use as a rest as well as shooting off hand out to 200 yards and look for minute of deer or elk as off hand accuracy.

[SHOOTALL]

another thing- some try to make their hunt some religous like experince while others want meat and that plays in to it also !

[bilmac]

Much as I'd rather not, probably 50-75% of my shots at game are offhand, so I shoot offhand a lot when I practice. Nothing special, usually I just plink shotgun empties with a 22. I usually get out once or twice a week. But in the three years I have been going to the range I am using, I have never seen anyone else do anything other than shoot from a bench. It's good they are out there shooting, but how do you become a better shot by shooting from a bench all the time?

[Swampman]

You shoot from a rest in the field.

[SHOOTALL]

Not all the time for me .

[Swampman]

To take it you have to know how.

I know how, I just quit doing it.

[mcwoodduck]

You shoot from a rest in the field.

Sometimes.  Depends on the stand.  Some of the tree stands have a nice rail around them and makes a perfect rest.

[Bart Solo]

You shoot from a rest in the field.

I guess you don't still hunt. 

[Swampman]

The woods and the fields are full of rest.

[Bart Solo]

What do you mean by "rest?" 

If you are you talking about a table with a sand bag on it, no there are no rests in the woods. If you mean a shooting stick, try asking the deer to wait long enough for you to set it up.  If you mean dropping to the ground then I doubt you will have the same shot. If you mean dropping to a knee, the position provides greater stability.  If you mean using a military sling, you might have a point, but very few people have them and fewer know how to properly use one. If you are talking about leaning on the side of a tree, again you might have a point.  As mentioned above a lot of tree stands have a nice safety bar that drops down in front of you  and you can use that for support if you are pointed in the right direction.   

No, there isn't always a rest in the woods. Many shots are offhand, and all kinds of shots need to be practiced.  You are right, a man has to know his limitations and very few of us are really up to taking offhand shots.   That is why this year I intend to practice a lot of offhand shooting at 20 to 50 yards.  If I get comfortable there I intend to move it out to 75 yards.   

[Tunaman]

I agree that practice is important. I also belive that shooting a rimfre is good practice. I shoot between 600-700 centerfire rounds a year at the range but I shoot between 1200-1500 rounds of 17 and 22 rimfire. I also shoot about 15 cases of shotgun shells a year. Unfortunatly, this alone does not make you a great shot. the second part of the equation is having a good quality rifle with great optics and loads. The caliber has very little to do with it. 

As for the rest, I hate to say this, but I agree with SwampMan on this one. The woods are full of rest. I hate to take offhand shots. Not because I can't make the shot but because I may not be as accurate as i should be. if the shot is further than 20 yards, I find a rest or I don't take the shot.  I am fortunate that i can hunt a lot, we have long seasons in the deep south, so i can afford to pass up some shots each year. I am sure that many are better offhand shots than I am and If you are comfortable taking thosae shots, I applaud you. That is just what works for me.

[bilmac]

Not any rests in the sage grasslands I hunt. You drop down in sitting or prone and your shot is often masked by grass and brush. I have started to carry stix for antelope, you often get within range by crawling over the top of a hill. I still don't need practice shooting from a benchrest, I can do pretty good at that, I need practice shooting from my hind legs. I expect a lot of folks need a lot more practice than I do

[Swampman]

I always wear a pack.  It makes a great rest.  I will never shoot offhand if I can make, or find a rest.  I'm a rifleman....that's what we do.

[nomosendero]

"Practice or Cartridge--Which is More Important?" Hitting in the vitals is always important, but the question baffles me. Why not practice with the cartridge you want, why do you have to give one up to get another?

[Coyote Hunter]

1. Practice
2. Practice
3. Practice
4. Practice
5. Practice
6. Practice
7. Practice
8. Practice
9. Practice
10. Cartridge

[corbanzo]

I have a few rifles that I feel fine picking up any one of them and taking them out.  I know I hit, I know they kill, pretty simple really.

Debating over which cartridge is better than the other... well, it is a good way to waste time when you are worn out for the day.  

If you want to get into a debate over cartridge, I guess the humane killing thing could be an arguement, as in, you probably shouldn't use a .22 mag on a moose.  Then the guy comes in who killed a brown bear with a .22 swift....

And it isn't like it takes that much time to figure out a rifle.  I want more, I'm sure you all do, what is next I'm not totally sure.  (OK, it's gonna be a REM 700XCR .338RUM, but whatever)  

So yes, hitting the target, much more important than caliber.  Having the power to make your hit count?  Important, but much more simple.  

[Bart Solo]

"Practice or Cartridge--Which is More Important?" Hitting in the vitals is always important, but the question baffles me. Why not practice with the cartridge you want, why do you have to give one up to get another?

As I said above, I have never felt the recoil or even had the sound of a shot register when hunting, but practicing is a different story.  An uncomfortably punishing rifle at the range is a rifle a sane person doesn't want to use when practicing.  Then there is cost.  A hundred rounds a month could lead some people to conclude they don't have to practice.  Note the thread up above about the high cost of shooting and hunting.  On the other hand we all agree that people should practice with their hunting rifle as much as possible.  I wonder how many people really want to practice a lot with their favorite Remington Ultra Mag?   

[bilmac]

Well said Mr. Ron

If we were really devoted we could all practice with the rifle we hunt with too, by shooting cast, but not many, even us retired guys want to devote that much time. So we practice with a 22.

[Brithunter]

Hi All,

      The problem here, well as I see it, is that there are two main types of folks who depart into the deer woods/country come open season. Those who like shooting and those who see it as the means to get some meat.

       The first type spend at least some time shooting on a fairly regular basis however this group can be broken down further into those who shoot their hunting rifles often and others who don't. There are those who are really seriously into shooting and that often includes competition and those who just shoot for the fun of it. A problem of today's shooter is that the bench rules and far too few (including myself) spend time position shooting  Perhaps with the high prices of ammo etc now is the time to concentrate on one or two rifles and start serious position shooting even breaking out the air rifle as it does not get much cheaper to shoot than that! 

      Now the second type seems to think that they are " natural" shots and don't need to practice and just buy a box of ammo not even often worrying what weight bullet it has and expect it to shoot perfectly and spot on to the sights with no testing or adjustment. In this groups like the first one not all are quite so  keen and some will at least try to get the same type ammo although I doubt they know or care about batch numbers or lots and they might even fire a couple of shots to see if it works and goes in the right general area.

     The thing is how does one sort all this out? there are those who would call for regulations and compulsory training/testing which happens in some places. In Scandinavia there are hunting tests, Germany is far more serious as is Holland, here in the UK most places where you go as a client/guest insist on checking zero and making sure you can put your shots inside a 3" circle at 100 yards which is a fairly sensible requirement as the sights might have been upset intravelling, depending on distance and mode of travel, and personally I always like to check zero before hunting if possible. Even if only going for a morning I like to check the rifle but in this case do it the day or a couple of days before then don't clean it. Whilst on Holiday in Scotland a few years ago I took a mornings Roe Buck stalking from the estate we were staying on, we had hired a cottage, two days before one of the keepers collected me and took me to a small valley and put a target on a  post to check zero and it was fine, it also allows the keeper access if the client is capable and safe. A regular guest is a different matter and I was only asked to do this once with Tony who I stalked with on many occasions and whom I shot my first deer with.

   Presently I am shooting on an almost weekly basis but this is going to have to be cut back on  the range is a 90 mile round trip and with fuel costs it's just getting too much so it will have to be twice a month and I will try to call in the gunshop at the same time to pick up supplies as I pass the shop on the way to the range. Powder and bullets are the most needed right now as I am almost out of 6mm Bullets and very low on several powders with none left for the 270 even though I have some bullets for that and I am low on 22LR cartridges as well.

    It's time to rationalise and work out a shooting plan for me at least and to include more .22LR shooting and at least some free hand and position shooting. To practice what I can use in the field so shooting using a stick as a rest etc and I will spend a little money on some life size targets of Roe Buck and Fox and use them as well. Might as well use the chance to practice with iron sights as well and learn how to use them properly. Shoot less but make it count.

  Practice is vital  most centrefire cartridges will take down a deer  the question of ethics and suitabilty is another question entirely.

[Tom W.]

I go to the range when I can and shoot a lot when I get there, both rifle and pistol/revolver. I shoot from the bench with a rest. When I go to the woods to hunt deer, I climb into a shooting house and shoot my deer with a rested rifle. I don't care for climbing stands at all....

[Brithunter]

Hmmm what happens if you encounter Deer on the way in or out to and from the shooting house/box blind?

We use box blinds at some places but also use high seats and spot and stalk depending of ground and where the deer are. Places like Scotland is still mainly pure stalking and using whatever rest is available, shooting is more often than not down prone due to lack of concealment cover. Sometime it might be possible or required to shoot from sitting or kneeling and Bi-pods are becoming popular there for that reason.

I can only think of one place that I know where a climbing stand could be used so we don't see them here and in fact I have never seen one at all. I shot my Whitetail Buck from a stand but the other two, a Button Buck and a large Doe were shot from the ground free standing and free hand as the deer movements had changed due to weather and the stands were not sighted in the best places for where the deer were now even though you saw deer from the stands the best was by stalking them at that particular time. That was in Northern Missouri back in 03.

[Swampman]

If I'm hunting from a climbing stand, I don't even uncase my rifle until I'm up the tree and completely settled in.