Practice or Cartridge--Which Is More Important?

[Brithunter]

Swampman I know we have our differences but here you would miss more deer than you would get. We uncase our rifles at the truck and then load them ready and quietly stalk into the property to get to the stands and more often than not we will see deer before we get to the stand. Sometime it's possible to stalk to the stand and get into it for the shot but a lot of the time that is not going to happen and yes the rifle must be unloaded before climbing into the stand.

Yep I carry a day pack and have used it once for a shot, I also sometimes (depending on the ground) carry a stalking stick, a length of Hazle with a vee at the top and that also can be used in a number of ways, have used fence posts even the fence strands and trees but sometimes there is no rest or time to move to a suitable rest and the shot must be taken swiftly. Fox is even worse for this and as for rabbiting  rarely do you get the luxury for a rested shot.

[bilmac]

Brit

You and I seldom have any differences!! I think swampy has a kind of argumentative nature, I have an old friend who is like that. Did you know he has a 270!!

If you think you can't place a bullet well beyond 50 yards you ought to go to some metalic sihlloette shoots. The ram target is a little smaller than a deer, and is set at 500 meters, and yes it can be hit. I wouldn't think of shooting 500 meters at a real animal , probably not even prone rested, but the chicken target is easily the size of a deers vitals and is 200m. The pig the size of a javilina is 300m, and I have a pin for hitting 10 of them in a row.

Like Brit says, if you don't take those shots where I live you'll often have an unfilled tag, just like the "well armed" hunters of the original post. The close in shots you "rest" guys talk about must not only be taken off hand, they frequently have to be taken fast. Even our "dumb" mule deer won't stand around and let you find a nice rest if you are within 50 yards. You can tell if they are going to give you a second to shoot or not and often I take shots the instant my sights look good because I know if I don't he will run.

[Bart Solo]

Brithunter, I think we are in agreement.  If we are hunting from a stand or blind, we load up at camp or truck and walk both observantly and quietly to the blind or stand.  If it is a stand we unload and climb in, pull the rifle up and reload.  

[Swampman]

Having to pack the climbing stand in and out every time makes it tough to quitely still hunt into the stand.  Not being able to see more than 20 feet unless you are up in a tree can be an issue as well.  We try to get in before daylight and stay up as long as we can.  Hunting FL is different.

[Savage .250]

 Practice and cartridge go hand and glove.     

[Brithunter]

Hmm well although I no longer am able to hunt there due to developer buying it for "recreation" use and splitting it up into small plots of about 5 acres for the week-enders the place I used to hunt a lot was commercial forrestry and there were two large blocks which we never went into as it was impassible being too thick. The small Muntjac deer didn't have a problem though 

The land and terrain is so varied here the only thing really missing are places to shoot over long range like some do in the US. I see on some sites that they shoot Mulies and Elk at 500-800 yards  possibly more and I would think that the only places that is possible are the Scottish hills, Dartmoor and possibly Radnor ranges which is a field firing range with ranges of 2000 metres+.

[tangob5]

Practice is everything.  You have to know your rifle.  I go to the range about once a week and always take 2 different calibers.  I always take a light caliber such as a 17 HMR, .223 or a .22 along with one of my hunting rifles.  I probably shoot 200+ rounds through each of my hunting rifles each year with more going through the one I'll use in the weeks before opening day.  At home I use my RWS mod. 45 .177 pellet rifle to play with because it feels the same as my Ruger M77's without the recoil.  I don't care what cartridge you use if you can't deliver it then that cartridge is worthless.

[R.W.Dale]

 This thread is a great example over practice over cartridge.

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,155958.0.html

 Most would scoff at the prospect of using a 7.62x39 at ranges approaching 300yds. But the key is that in the 3 months I had this rifle before deer season I had probably put close to 500 rounds through the tube in all shooting positions at ranges up to 300meters. Thus I had complete confidence in the platform and in the knowledge of exactly where a bullet would fall at any range in between, with the help of a laser rangefinder of course.

Practice 85%
equipment 10%
cartridge 5%

[Swampman]

Most would scoff at using a rimless .30-30 at 300 yards.  IMO it's not a good idea.  The unluckiest deer that ever lived, was hit by the luckiest guy in the world on that day.

[R.W.Dale]

Most would scoff at using a rimless .30-30 at 300 yards.  IMO it's not a good idea.  The unluckiest deer that ever lived, was hit by the luckiest guy in the world on that day.

Swampy I think I speak for everyone when I suggest that you go take a long walk off a short pier. Luck has nothing  to do with it, skill and practice prevailed, you're just jelous because you couldn't make such a shot in confidence with you super308remchester.

 Again you display just how little you know about firearms. At 300yds my 7.62x39 Ballistic tip load load packs more energy than 30-30 does at 200yds. Now you gonna tell us how 30-30 won't kill deer at 200yds? Please I dare ya!

OH no wait you'll just say that it's "unethical" whatever the heck that means

FYI: 30-30 rimless is called 30remington.... There you learned something today.

[Swampman]

You don't have to justify your behavior to me.  You don't need to give me lessons on ballistics or cartridges either.  You should be playing the lottery.

[R.W.Dale]

You don't have to justify your behavior to me.  You don't need to give me lessons on ballistics or cartridges either.  You should be playing the lottery.

You're right since such lessons would be completely lost on you.

Again you're just jelous because you couldn't do it.

Here's a 300meter group form another 7.62x39 I own that looks like your 100yd groups from your super308remchester. HA HA! But I guess that was just luck as well. 



Back on topic


Practice practice practice is worth more than an extra 1000fps from a 20rounds a year cartridge any day of the week and twice on Sundays

[corbanzo]

And I think on topic is where we need to stay. 

[SHOOTALL]

Another way to look at it _ you can pratice till hell freezes over with a 22 short rifle , but in grizz country would the 22 short or the pratice be the most important !

[Bart Solo]

Another way to look at it _ you can pratice till hell freezes over with a 22 short rifle , but in grizz country would the 22 short or the pratice be the most important !

Of course not.  A well placed 22 short on a griz would just piss him off.  You need a hammer when dealing with dangerous game.  In the beginning I said I am not in the 223 deer hunter club. You need a good minimum round ( probably a 243) when hunting deer.  Dangerous game requires the biggest, baddest rifle you can effectively shoot. That said, I have heard that recently a polar bear drifted south several hundred miles to a town in central Alaska and was killed at a trash dump by a radio announcer with an AR-15. He emptied his clip. You use what you have, I guess. 

[Brithunter]

Yes indeed practice is THE most important thing. Spring Powered air rifles are good because follow through is vital to accuracy. Getting the sight picture perfect and releasing the sear without disturbing it is vital no matter what gun you shoot. And as already mentioned here in this thread most folks don't even notice the gun recoiling when game is in the sights but practice with the rifle to be used in competition or hunting is also vital as you have to know it intimately  and exactly when the trigger is going release/break.

[SHOOTALL]

YEA a little girl up there killed a bear with a 22 RF also. you answered the ? ROUND ! size matters ! at least to some .
As far as knowing exact trigger break - some claim its better to not know as you tend to play the trigger .

[bilmac]

I may have given the wrong impression in an earlier post when talking about what sihillouette shooters can do. While you can hit chickens offhand at 200M I wouldn't ever shoot at game offhand that far, The steel chicken doesn't have any feelings, and I'm not obliged to eat him. The point I intended was that with a high degree of practice, I feel confident that I can make offhand shots inside 100 yards. Beyond that the critter is more tolerant and I can take the time to get prone.

I don't want folks to get the idea that cartridge choice is unimportant either. I have killed deer and antelope with 22 centerfires, and won't do that anymore. 6mm is about minimum for those size animals, but I think it is dumb to argue endlessly about which is better a 270 or a 30-06. The time is better spent popping caps.

[IOWA DON]

I get most of my practice shooting backyard pests with either a break-over-spring air rifle or a .22 short rifle. I also occaisionaly get some practice at the range with a .22 rimfire or my Argentine 1909 Mauser in 7X57 or with big lead slugs in brass cases out of my .20 ga slug gun. None of these guns have heavy recoil or burn out the barrels quickly. I know the trajectories and wind drift for my barrel-burning, flat-shooting, muzzle-blasting hunting rifles, and don't see the point of burning out their high priced barrels or maybe developing a flinch practicing with them. Anyway, I think flat-shooting cartridges offer a real advantage in open country. Since I never do any rapid fire shooting at running game practice with one rifle is pretty much the same as practice with another rifle. Also, I think there is a tremendous advantage using a somewhat muzzle heavy rifle with a light trigger pull. It seems most factory rifle are muzzle light with a heavy trigger pull and even a good shot would have a difficult time hitting anything with them from a standing position. Maybe low recoiling calibers are easier for most to shoot with, but the muzzle light guns they usually come in are not so easy to shoot accurately.

[DC]

This is simular the claims for rifle inaccuracy or accuracy as the case may be.  Many of those claims one way or the other are very much affected by the shooter, his or her trigger squeeze, rifle support etc.  In other words it is every bit as much the shooter as it is the rifle in most cases.  The shooter that can produce sub MOA groups day in and day out is a well practiced rifleman with a good rifle.  A great rifle is only as accurate as the person squeezing the trigger.
For instance, a long time ago, I practice the squeeze with short dowel between the web of my hand and the tip of my trigger finger.  I found out that, like so many people do that my finger naturally moved a little to the left, or toward my thumb instead of straight back which affected my groups.  After hours of retraining my muscles to pull straight back my groups with a hand gun improved 100% as did my rifle shots. 
Practice makes perfect every time.  A great shooter with a so so rifle will always out shoot a occasional shooter with a superb rifle IMHO.

[Bart Solo]

I think most are in agreement that practice is vital if someone intends to be a decent shot.  But lots of people I know take the deer rifle out to the range a few weeks before the season and fire a few bench shots to make sure their pride and joy is still zeroed. Others don't do that much. 

I know the folks on this board are exceptional. Nearly all shoot regularly, but even here I have read complaints about the distance to the range, the high cost of ammunition, barrel wear and tear, and recoil.  I get the feeling that some consider range time to be a little bit of a drag.

Any tips on encouraging folks to get out to the range.  I think shooting should be both safe and fun.  I also think people are attracted to bench shooting because close groups feed our inner Robin Hood.  We need some games to make hunting position shooting fun. 

Twenty miles to the east a gun club runs a decent range. It has a really popular Cowboy action shooting activity.  Sadly it is popular with the affluent over 50 set. Lots of middle aged doctors, dentists and lawyers show up one Sunday morning a month with a lot of expensive equipment to play cowboys. The price of admission is ownership of two single action pistols, an old style lever rifle and an 19th century shot gun.  If you can do all that for less than $3,000, including the holsters and cowboy outfit, I will throw in with you.   

The closest public range to me is run by the department of conservation.  It is set up primarily to help folks wanting to sight-in and for trap shooters The longest range is 100 meters.  The state is about to spend several million building a new range a couple of miles away.  The new range will have a bunch of booths designed for handgun shooters and an expanded trap facility, but the rifle range will be a duplicate of the current 100 meter range.  All bench rests all the time. 

I have heard about silhouette shooting but I think you have to go to New Mexico for that and Prairie Dog shooting is a big deal part of the year.

What does the average guy do to make sure shooting practice is fun and not a chore? 

[teddy12b]

I know the folks on this board are exceptional. Nearly all shoot regularly, but even here I have read complaints about the distance to the range, the high cost of ammunition, barrel wear and tear, and recoil.  I get the feeling that some consider range time to be a little bit of a drag.

What does the average guy do to make sure shooting practice is fun and not a chore? 

I wouldn't take the complaints about the driving distance or other high costs as a sign that people aren't happy to get out to the range.  They're just unhappy about how much more it costs them to go out to the range than it did a few years ago.  I drive about an hour, use up a bunch of gas & ammo and try not to think about how much one trip to the range costs me.  When I get to the range though it's the greatest place on earth.

What I do to make target shooting more fun is shooting farther out.  It gets boring shooting a target with a 22 at 50 yards, so I start putting my targets out farther and farther.  My 30-06 is my favorite rifle and shooting long range with it is like playing chess against the wind.  When it starts getting too easy or not as much fun, go out another 100 yards and start over.

[R.W.Dale]

I'm lucky one of my gun club's ranges is less than a mile from my house, the other less than 10 

All in all I probably average 30 rounds of centerfire rifle a week.