What does additional velocity buy ?

[Hammer1]

In calibers 44 and larger using heavy-for-caliber cast bullets like the WFN LBT, what does incremental additional velocity buy in a hunting load ?

Several folks have reported good results with velocities as low as 800 fps and others with 1,000 fps.  Plenty of deer and other game falling to these loads.  If complete penetration with a 500 Linebaugh 440 grain WFN is obtained with 900 fps, what would one get by adding another 400 fps except additional recoil and slower response on follow up ?

Remember the videos of the 454 Casull demolishing the concrete blocks with the 1,600+ fps JHP.  Does that horsepower equate to faster kills on game ?


Assume hunting ranges under fifty yards so trajectory is not an issue.

.

[John R.]

Not much, if anything, other than recoil, if trajectory is not a consideration.

[jhalcott]

  You seem to have hit it perfectly. More recoil

[Empty Quiver]

I'm thinking more wound trauma. The difference between shoving a target pointed arrow through your hand and getting shot by a .300 ultra mag as an example. The bullet isn't expanding but the air following the round does damage on its own, I believe it's called hydraulic shock. The big section of disrupted jello in the balistic gelliton is what you get more of.

[jcn59]

Seems I recall the hydraulic shock just starting to be significant as the bullet exceeds 2000 FPS.  The black-powder shooters of yore never saw it. 

I think that's why we don't read many stories about deer shot with a 30-30 that go DRT.

I know that at 100 yards, deer don't seem to die faster when hit with a 300 mag. than a 308.

The couple pigs I've shot didn't know the difference between a 454 and a 44.

[Mikey]

You get extra recoil and not much else.  I have to disagree with Empty Quiver regarding his post on wound trauma.  Shoving a arrow through a medium does not have the same effect as shoving through a flat nosed bullet at 800-1000'/sec; even slow moving bullets create the type of tissue damage necessdary to deflate lungs, stop a heart, break heavy bone and travel through viscera and bring the animal down.  While it is true there is more hydrostatic shock with faster moving bullets that doesn't necessarily stop an animal - heck, lots of times it failed to stop 80 lb Vietnamese unless you hit them square on and penetrated the chest.

Most all my Whitetail taken with a 30-30 were drt.  The ones that ran the furthest were those I shot with a 308................. Mikey.

[Bigeasy]

Hammer-

Like everyone else is saying, pretty much just recoil.  Bullet placement, and penetration are what kill big game, especially at handgun velocities.  Foot pounds of energy is not a good  measurement of killing ability.  Heck, guys wound deer with 300 magnums, and they still run off.  A bad shot is a bad shot...period.

I have shot a fair amount of big game with .44 mag / .45 LC, and have found a hard cast 250 - 300 grain bullet at 1000 - 1200 fps are plenty to get good penetration, and quick kills.  In my experience, a deer hit with this load in the chest will travel 25 to 50 yards, then go belly up.  A lighter bullet, say 180 grain, at say 1500 fps, might drop a deer a little quicker on a perfect broadside shot, but how often do those perfect shots present themselves?  Don't depend on a lightweight handgun bullet at high velocity to provide deep penetration on deer size game.

I have used the Speer 300 grn PSP, and the 300 grn XTP, loaded hot, out of a long barrel Ruger Redhawk, to take several bucks.  They didn't drop any quicker then those shot with loads that were a little milder.

Larry

 

[Autorim]

Any animal falls down when the brain ceases to send coherent signals to the muscles. This can be by a direct shot to the brain or spinal column or to cause such profuse bleeding that insufficient blood is delivered to the brain. Since the brain is relatively small, the shot to the large blood vessels around the heart is the normal target. Whether it is with a high velocity bullet or a slow moving bullet, if the blood flow is disrupted to the brain the animal will fall down. Shot placement is what counts.

IMHO velocity affects trajectory more than killing power as long as the power and bullet type insures sufficient penetration to get the job done. As in bow hunting, a complete pass through is desirable as the blood trail is easier to follow.

[Larry Gibson]

"what does incremental additional velocity buy in a hunting load ?"

It buys range, pure and simple.  Besides the trajectory there is the impact velocity and subsequent terminal ballistics.  If your round has minimal terminal ballistics you increase range to 75 or 100 yards by upping the velocity. Thus with a higher muzzle velocity you increase the range where the bullet slows down to minimal terminal ballistics.  Since you've a self determined limit of 50 yards there's not much to ge t excited about.  Also I seen and had all through and through with plenty of penetration on deer (mulies, blacktails and whitetails) using standard weight bullets in .357, 41 and .44 magnums.  Never saw the "penetration" need for the big heavy bullets as I don't do texas heart shots. A kieth SWC put where it belongs kills deer just as dead as any other cast bullet.  I actually prefer a faster stepping JHP as they kill deer quicker but that's not the topic of this thread.

Larry Gibson

[corbanzo]

Hydrostatic shock - due to energy being transfered into the medium.

There is one major things which makes this, and that is change in speed.  As the tissue slows down the bullet, the energy expands into the tissue.  With a faster bullet, the bullet will slow down faster, making more shock.  This does two things, one good and one bad.  The good, is it shocks the muscles, causes severe trauma, and puts the animal down faster.  The bad is meat damage.  With a handgun round, you are usually looking for penetration over shock.  Making a bullet go faster is also going to make it slow down faster, meaning that you aren't going to get a lot more penetration, but you will get more damage.  With the same wound and the slower bullet, the animal is still going to die, it might just run a few yards more.

So really, a hundred or two extra fps really isn't going to help you a whole lot if you already have enough energy to make a kill.  Long range shots are the only time that extra fps will help you.  Trajectory is one factor, but the other is speed loss, making sure you have killing energy when the bullet hits the target. 

I'm thinking more wound trauma. The difference between shoving a target pointed arrow through your hand and getting shot by a .300 ultra mag as an example. The bullet isn't expanding but the air following the round does damage on its own, I believe it's called hydraulic shock. The big section of disrupted jello in the balistic gelliton is what you get more of.

[Redhawk1]

A lot of the guys have it right here, more recoil and flatter trajectory for longer distance shooting, is what you will get. I have been doing a lot of research, and shooting of game with different rounds and calibers, using hard cast bullets.

I found with increased speed, you will get more penetration to a point. Once you get to much speed you will actually loose penetration because of resistance on the bullet.

As for tissue damage, when using hard cast bullets, you will not notice more tissue damage with increased velocity, now if you are using a hollow point bullet you will see more tissue damage due to the bullets expansion and bullet coming apart at higher speeds.

I have shot a lot of deer, hogs and black bear with hard cast bullets at different speeds. I get nice round holes through my animals. I have never done much damage even when the shoulder of the animal was hit. Make sure your cast bullets are at the right hardness, around 22 BHN I find ideal.

I have handgun hunted using every thing from 357 Mag to the 500 mag. What I have found is, I like a big hole and hard cast bullets. Keep the velocity from 1000 fps to 1400 fps and you will kill everything you hit. When using hard cast bullets, use the ones with the biggest metplat.

It has taken me some time, but I have quit using energy as a measure of killing power, it takes the proper speed, bullet design and energy. It is a combination of them all to make it work,  also remember shot placement is key.

[S.E.Ak]

Trajectory,FPE and recoil. Some bullets need some speed so they will open up and dump their energy on the target and some don't.Most load alot of extra recoil into their loads.Say in the 44mag and deer hunting,there is no need for a bullet over 240grains and 180 will work fine but most load up with heavy slugs best used for moose.Ammo is tricky and you can get there two ways fast and light or heavy and try to be fast. We now shoot deer at a hundred yards with handguns insted of the under fifty used just thirty years ago.A load with a 240 grain bullet at 1,500fps lower recoil will kill deer size game as good and shoot flatter than a 320 grain bullet at 1,100fps. When you look at what folks pay extra for the heavy bullets to just take deer,well recoil we bring on ourselves plus unneeded expense.Now if you move to really big pigs then heavy is nice.Weaterby has taken the light fast to extreams at least in the old days but now days with rounds like the 460 he is with most and the bigger,harder faster crowd. To my thinking if you live in Alaska do go with the biggest fastest round you can shoot straight.Deer hunting in Texas 240 grain top at 1,300 to 1,500 will kill any deer you can hit plus cheaper to reload and less recoil.

[Lloyd Smale]

i agree with redhawk and will add this. I do alot of long range sixgun shooting out to ranges of up to 800 yards and bottom line is all handguns have poor trajectorys and no matter what velocity you are using you need to do some practicing to see where you hit at differnt ranges so i gues i doesnt matter a bit to me if i shoot 10 feet low at 500 yards or 11 feet. Sight any sixgun your hunting with at the longest range you intent to shoot and dont worry about trajectory.

A lot of the guys have it right here, more recoil and flatter trajectory for longer distance shooting, is what you will get. I have been doing a lot of research, and shooting of game with different rounds and calibers, using hard cast bullets.

I found with increased speed, you will get more penetration to a point. Once you get to much speed you will actually loose penetration because of resistance on the bullet.

As for tissue damage, when using hard cast bullets, you will not notice more tissue damage with increased velocity, now if you are using a hollow point bullet you will see more tissue damage due to the bullets expansion and bullet coming apart at higher speeds.

I have shot a lot of deer, hogs and black bear with hard cast bullets at different speeds. I get nice round holes through my animals. I have never done much damage even when the shoulder of the animal was hit. Make sure your cast bullets are at the right hardness, around 22 BHN I find ideal.

I have handgun hunted using every thing from 357 Mag to the 500 mag. What I have found is, I like a big hole and hard cast bullets. Keep the velocity from 1000 fps to 1400 fps and you will kill everything you hit. When using hard cast bullets, use the ones with the biggest metplat.

It has taken me some time, but I have quit using energy as a measure of killing power, it takes the proper speed, bullet design and energy. It is a combination of them all to make it work,  also remember shot placement is key.

[Redhawk1]

Trajectory,FPE and recoil. Some bullets need some speed so they will open up and dump their energy on the target and some don't.Most load alot of extra recoil into their loads.Say in the 44mag and deer hunting,there is no need for a bullet over 240grains and 180 will work fine but most load up with heavy slugs best used for moose.Ammo is tricky and you can get there two ways fast and light or heavy and try to be fast. We now shoot deer at a hundred yards with handguns insted of the under fifty used just thirty years ago.A load with a 240 grain bullet at 1,500fps lower recoil will kill deer size game as good and shoot flatter than a 320 grain bullet at 1,100fps. When you look at what folks pay extra for the heavy bullets to just take deer,well recoil we bring on ourselves plus unneeded expense.Now if you move to really big pigs then heavy is nice.Weaterby has taken the light fast to extreams at least in the old days but now days with rounds like the 460 he is with most and the bigger,harder faster crowd. To my thinking if you live in Alaska do go with the biggest fastest round you can shoot straight.Deer hunting in Texas 240 grain top at 1,300 to 1,500 will kill any deer you can hit plus cheaper to reload and less recoil.

What I do is find a bullet that works well in my handgun, usually I find a bullet weight that will work on the biggest game I intend to hunt. That same bullet will work on anything under that.
I don't use a bunch of different bullets in my handguns, I find one that will cover all my bases. A 350 gr. hard cast bullet that I use in my 510 GNR at 1300 fps works great on bear and will do the same on deer.

Bullet weight also aids in penetration, and like I said before, velocity is not going to give you more penetration after a certain speed. There comes a point of diminishing return.
A 400 gr. bullet at 1300 fps is going to penetrate further than a 250 gr. bullet at 1300 fps, I am talking the same bullet design and diameter.

[Lloyd Smale]

I load for hunting sixguns in the same way. I pick a bullet that i want to use that fits the purpose. i usually error on the heavy side and try to push it between 1100 and 1300fps and let accuracy determine where i settle. In low velocity handguns like the 44 special and 45 colt (small frame and DA) i do the same but shoot for 900-1000 using a mid weight bullet.