Auto Makers Bailout

[PartsMan]

THE UNIONS ARE KILLING OUR INDUSTRIE.
Giveing our union bound auto makers money is like throwing it in an active volcano.
They loose money on every car they make.
I am tired of hereing about the guy that lost his $40 and hour to run a rivit gun.
There are welders across the road from me right know making half that doing real manufactureing.
They build entire flatbeds/trailers by them selves. NO benifits or pension eather.

[gypsyman]

PartsMan, it is pretty sad, that some of these people that worked for these auto company's, had such little common sense, and some just worked the system so that they got away with outright theivery. I've heard so many stories, of how workers would clock in, grab a newspaper and go sit in the can for the first half hour. Lunch hours and break times were extended by 15 to 30 minutes at a time. 3rd. shift workers would work maybe 4 hours, and sleep or goof off the other 4. Tools would somehow disappear. Just alittle over a year ago, I was set up at a gun show, where the guy next to me, was a retired GM worker. Straight from the horse's mouth, he told me, he had over $300,000 in GM stock, and in a 401K. He was wondering if he should leave it where it was, or move it. I told him he should move it. He said he was meeting with his accountant the next week, and talk to him about it. Don't know what he did with it, but I don't feel a bit sorry for him, if he left it where it was. Ever wonder how these so called educated business men didn't see this coming.  gypsyman

[PartsMan]

"In 2006 a typical UAW-represented assembler at GM earned $27.81 per hour of straight-time labor."
In 2006 I made $10 an hour and my job required three times the skill of the average GM employee.

The cost of living is high in there home towns bacause there are Union plants there.
If the unskilled workers in these citys were making Minimum wage like they deserve you could buy a nice home under $40k. I know this bacause I live in a farming comunity and my 3 bedroom brick home cost $32K

[ms]

THE UNIONS ARE KILLING OUR INDUSTRIE.
Giveing our union bound auto makers money is like throwing it in an active volcano.
They loose money on every car they make.
I am tired of hereing about the guy that lost his $40 and hour to run a rivit gun.
There are welders across the road from me right know making half that doing real manufactureing.
They build entire flatbeds/trailers by them selves. NO benifits or pension eather.

No the bankers aren't giving credit.

[Graybeard]

I'm certainly not a fan of unions and in fact for the most part feel the time for a need for them has mostly passed. Still I do not believe unions are what's wrong with the auto industry or the reason they are crying for a bail out.

I saw a short clip of the head honchos in DC on the news the other night. One of them who made I think it was barely shy of $10 million per year was asked if he'd be willing to take a salary of $1 next year as they all seemed to have been asked. I think one said yes, one said he'd need to think about it and the other just flatly said no that he felt his pay was appropriate.

No one is worth $10 million per year to the company they work for. No one is so great at what they do they deserve that kinda salary. If he was doing such a great job then clearly his company would not be in so much trouble as to need a bail out. That salary that one man gets per year would pay for a whole lotta line workers.

[SDS-GEN]

American auto makers begging for my money through taxes is an insult.  I have supported the American auto industry my whole life by buying their product.  The companies didn't plan for the future so now they want to steal more money from me?  I will no longer give preference to an American auto company when shopping for a car.

[JBlk]

I have worked jobs with union representation and without.The one with union representation is by far the best because it helped get a fair wage and benefits denied other workers in the area without unions.The whole problem with our whole economy is that people feel that they are worth allot more than they really are.The CEO and top brass feel that they have made the company successful and profitable with their brilliant leadership and demand and get four or five times what their really worth.The floor sweeper feels he is entitled to make as much as the machine operator, and on and on.My first new car cost me around thirty two hundred dollars, the same car is thirty thousand today.No, I don't think that we should bail out the auto industry, or the banking institutions.They should sink or swim, and maybe that would bring a little reality into our business sector and our own private lives.I know that if things continue like they are going the depression of 29 will appear like a walk in the park.

[skifastchad]

Instead of bailing out a currently failing business plan, why not give the loan directly to the UAW.  Let them use it to buy controlling stake in the companies.  Let them fire the bigwigs and run the car companies themselves. 
If the UAW thinks they are what makes the automotive world go round, give them a chance to prove it. 

I am not for or against unions in general.  Some industries NEED union labor to stay afloat, some are being dragged under by unions.   

[myronman3]

the executives are the real problem.  the union is not.  smoke and mirrors, boys.   g.b. nailed it with his post.

[jimster]

Well...one thing here...30,000 per year is not so bad if the State and Feds don't eat up 44 percent of it is gone before you get it....so you know where this is going here.  Government sticks their fingers in our pockets, we need more per hour.  One again the government caused the problem in the first place.  The more they take the more we need...period.  Nothing complicated there.  

Far as a bail out goes for GM....how long before that money gets ate up and they need more?  not long if they still ain't selling cars...and they won't....so it's insane to even give them anything at all out of our pockets.  Bottom line is if they don't sell cars they make, nothing will save them, and us giving them money will be like burning it.  Since most people can't afford to pay the price of a new car....and borrowing the money for one is insane,  and since they need to charge so much for them to pay for "non skilled" labor,  there is no way they will come out of the hole.  Unless they decide that non skilled labor is not worth as much.  

and GB is right on...ain't nobody worth 10 million bucks to go sit in meetings and talk chit.

If you just let them fail....they would work it out on their own.....they would have to.  
You bail em out....you'll do it 4 more times before someone gets smart and says no, then you threw all that money away for nothing.  They have to sell cars....and people have to buy them, or they won't make it either way.

[Hairtrigger]

The UAW backed Obama during the election.
I believe when he is in office the auto makers will get payback from him.

[PartsMan]

I have worked jobs with union representation and without.The one with union representation is by far the best because it helped get a fair wage and benefits denied other workers in the area without unions.The whole problem with our whole economy is that people feel that they are worth allot more than they really are.

See you are contradicting yourself. When it was you it was a fair wage.
No, the union helped you cost the company twice what you were worth.

Then there is the pension plan the union forced on the auto companys.
They spend more on past employees than current ones.

[coldmold]

I agree with GB there is no one woth what some of these ceos get. On the other hand most of the uaw  people aint worth what they get.
 My son works for a co. that supplies exhaust parts to GM. He won a chance for him and one other to tour the Gm plant they serviced. He took me with him. I never saw a more lazy slow moving bunch of people in my life. The whole bunch just seemed to lack motivation, until the break whistle blew and then they ran to the break room like mad.
 

[teddy12b]

Around here we have a GM plant and it was well understood that people who went into there right out of high school were darn lucky to get those jobs.  In plants as big as those, of course you are going to hear stories of guys getting away without working too hard, but there are many others that work very hard.  

The overpaying of people is across the board.  When you compare hourly wage and benefit of the big three compared to the foreign competitors there is no comparison.  There are two Honda plants within a couple hours drive from my house and they are very nice, & clean plants and people are lucky to work there.  I think the big three lost some of their self discipline to be competitive with foreign companies and are paying the price for it now.  There is no CEO worth 10 million a year especially if the company is failing, and there is no fresh out of high school kid working an assembly line dropping bolts into a hole that's worth all the pay & benefits they get.  

Like anything else there are good and bad unions out there.  I think the UAW is starting to understand that they need to be more reasonable if they want to keep people employed.

I don't feel sorry for the big three in any case.  They make an average car that costs more than an average guy makes a year and wonder why people don't buy them?  They are out of touch with living paycheck to paycheck, but in the last few years they're starting live it again so who knows.

[myronman3]

No, the union helped you cost the company twice what you were worth.

says who?  you?  big deal.   all i hear is a bunch of whining and proclaimations of which you know little to nothing of.

unions are like anywhere else, you got good people and bad.   most anti union people have huge misconceptions about the union.  they say much and know little about which they speak.   i have worked for both union and non union outfits.   the union outfits definately have better people, mostly because you are going to get what you pay for.   many non-union folks dislike unions out of sheer jealousy.  admittedly, i felt that way before i got off my butt and actively sought a union job.   it has been good for me and the company i work for.   you want a fair shake?  get a union job. 

[PartsMan]

Did you make more money and have better benifits when you worked union jobs?

If yes then you were costing more than you were worth to the company.
In my opinion of course.

You pay everybody at GM and there retired workers half and they would be much better off.
10 million is too much for anybody but I'll bet it's a drop in the bucket compaired the the total payroll.

[SHOOTALL]

30 or so years ago about 30 of us took our test to be lic. plumbers , about half union From the union school/program and the others from non union school . most of the union apprentices failed the first time the others passed to a man . I to have worked around union and non union since 1972 . Better workers BS ! They only produce so much each day and it ain't much . Around here the union workers in plumbing that produce more get under the table money as a perk but have to be careful the hall dosen't find out !
BTW to get work they have to work at 80% scale . We are a right to work state and have a good housing market slow but not dead .
Maybe some one could tell us why alot of union workers from up north retire down south where the unions haven't priced the cost of living out of reach of most ? ( their words )

[teddy12b]

Did you make more money and have better benifits when you worked union jobs?

If yes then you were costing more than you were worth to the company.
In my opinion of course.

I don't think it's fair to say that if you get benefits you are costing the company more than you're worth.  Many companies pay their people less per hour, but make up for it in benefits. 

The biggest problem today is that people don't look at the total package they are getting per hour including their benefits. 

[billy_56081]

In my job I travel from business to business and from what I see the Union plants are far far less productive. All you hear at union plants is "that's not my job". In these places there is no incentive to work hard to get ahead as it is all about seniority.  I believe that Unions hold back the good worker and promote the poor worker. As for the long breaks and sluffing off I see that at a major food manufacture that I go to. No wonder this common breakfast food is so expensive.

[SHOOTALL]

anything you get from the company is a cost ! they can give it to you or you can steal it but its a cost !

[PartsMan]

Many companies pay their people less per hour, but make up for it in benefits. 

That's the way it should work. Unions don't give that option.
They demand the highest pay AND the best benifits for there field.

[jimster]

"the union outfits definately have better people, mostly because you are going to get what you pay for.   many nonunion folks dislike unions out of sheer jealousy." 

I have worked for both....been working for a non Union place for 30 years now, they take good care of their people.  If you have bad people they just fire them and don't blink.  Three times since I've been there there had been movements to bring a Union in,  they did not have nearly enough votes to do so.
Now, we are still alive, we have scaled back, consolidated, made tough choices, and we are sitting OK, although the company is positioning themselves for the new year and tougher times, and probably more taxes.  So we are going to cut back a tad more.  The Good thing is, we are running on cash, all paychecks, vendors, and anything they need to run the business is payed in cash, no borrowing and waiting for money to come in at a certain times of month.  They will do whatever it takes to keep running on cash, including cut backs and layoffs, and letting salary people go.  It's business...but it's business that runs with a profit no matter what, and anything the government or economic times will do to them, they will do what it takes to stay this way.

I can totally agree that there was a time when we needed Unions real bad.  But something else happened along the way, I do not feel they are needed in all cases anymore, or at the very least, they should lighten up on the company that pays their way.  Bottom line is, a Union won't keep your company alive, or keep them in your State or country if they can't operate with certain profits.  In some cases, they drive the companies away. 
From what I remember before this job when I worked for a union...we went on strike (1977) walked the streets in the rain while a Cadillac with the union dude rode up and told us to hang in there...was out of work for 1.5 months....came back for a 5 cent raise....wow.  BTW...this company is dead now.

Not saying there are unions out there that are not a lot better....but they are all not in the best interest of the company or the people who work there. 

[SHOOTALL]

yea right you must not remember cars built in the USA and quality problems , Winchester , to name but two

[myronman3]

That's the way it should work. Unions don't give that option.

again, you dont know what you are talking about.    flap all you want, it doesnt change facts.  the one bad point (huge) about unions is the money they give the dems.   makes me want to puke.   that point i can not argue.   
    the union has done pretty well by me.  in fact, if it were not for  the union, i would be unemployed this very moment.  but because i am union, i exercised my bumping rights.  the non-union guys that got wacked were met at the door by securtiy and told "give me you keys, you are done".  some had thirty plus years with the company.   no thanks, no apology, no respect, just 'eliminated'.    meanwhile, the executives make another mil and a half off of cutting our jobs.   there is a problem alright, but it isnt the unions that are gouging the country into oblivian.  how many union repshave you seen asking the government for money?  now how many white collar bass-turds?   take a look around, and be HONEST.... who is the real @$$#0!*s here?     

[351 power]

executives should get a reasonable wage in line with their education, not pro athlete salaries
wages should get negotiated yearly, quickly, up or down depending on the economy and the health of the company
auto makers don't need 70 options on 50 different models of autos. fewer models are easier to inventory, tool for, manufacture
and trucks/suvs are too expensive to drive for most people. don't market them

[deltecs]

Well, gentlemen, I have been employed as a union business manager for a Local Union in Alaska that covered the entire State, IBEW LU 1547.  I must also inform the members here that I taught the joint Union/ Management apprenticeship linemen classes for over 3 consecutive years.  I've been instrumental in labor/management grievance disputes, craft jurisdicitonal disputes, and presented several arbitration cases before the A.A.A. and Council on Industrial Relations.  I've never lost an arbitration case.  
From my perspective, I taught the apprentices that they worked for the employer and belonged to a union.  That is not the same as working for the union, which most union people relate.  I must admit that I did not present any grievance that in my opinion had no merit after investigation of the grievance complaint, signed by the shop steward.  If the shop steward signed a frivolous grievance complaint, instead of telling the union member his complaint is nonsense, I corrected the steward and then appointed a different one.  I told all stewards that I would re appoint them in the future, if and only if, they took steward classes and passed the course given 2 nights a week for 3 months at no cost or payment.  The primary grievance problem I had, was violations of unwritten rules by company management.  Almost all of these had no merit and I so told the membership that I would proceed with grievances, only where management directly violated the contract.  If they wanted these unwritten rules to be included in the contract, then have the negotiation committee include them for a vote to the membership.  If they are not included in contract negotiations and submitted to a vote, then I was not going to go through a prcedure that is impossible to win or defend against management prerogatives.  
Unions membership has its merits by highly schooled and educated work force in their fields of emplyment.  Almost all of the unions in construction or utilities are very skilled workmen that take pride in their productivity and expertise on the job.  Most deserve every nickel earned, including pension benefits in lieu of wages .  
I totally disagree with labor unions in general, using PAC funds for the Democratic Party selections without regard to the individual members desire.  Many Rep politicians are not anti union and several are company owners having closed union shops.  The union is nothing more than a labor pool of skilled employees that negotiates a contract with agreed upon terms and conditions of employment with the owner or corporation.  Unions must do more to police their own membership and inform them of the economic situation in its particular area and do whatever is necessary to keep employment and profit to management.  It is also the Union Reps business, to contact management and assist in an efficient use of labor, so profits are increased or maintained to keep the current work force or increase the current work force.  That includes pointing out mis management directives or counter productive practices.  
Good business is where you find it.  Most union shops and management work together to bring the company to a whole and productive unit.  

[gypsyman]

Just heard on the local radio station,Toledo,Oh., that one of the local TV stations in Detroit, did an undercover news story. Seems they have 2 local Union officials, on tape, going into work, 2 hours late, and clocking out early. Both officials make over $100,000 a year.(The report just said they were both 6 figure employees) Seems to me it's like the pot calling the kettle black. Are the CEO's overpaid, damn right they are. But the workers arn't helping matters any either. Both party's are guilty of over indulging. Shouldn't get the bailout. Let them eat cake. gypsyman

[Hairtrigger]

I too have Toledo, OH as local TV and radio. It makes me sick hearing all of the union propaganda that the unions pay to air. Tom Brady makes me sick, he is the voice behind the ads trying to get busisness or disgruntled workers to go with union. The unions even were picketing Walmart, now they are picketing Sonic drive ins... I love to see them outside in crappy weather like we have now lounging behind their signs along the road. Being union is one thing... trying to force it on others is another.

[billy_56081]

The management of the company has to perform or they will get the ax, whereas the unions promote the lazy and incompetent just because they have their time in. Now this is coming from a blue collar working guy, the places that I go and do service at that are union are very inefficient and the employees are whining constantly.

[Hairtrigger]

Unions will stand up for anyone... as long as they pay their dues!