Author Topic: Auto Makers Bailout (Read 2127 times)

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #30 on:** November 21, 2008, 01:02:26 AM »

myronman3, you just made the case aginst unions , you don't have a job because you are best at what you do but because you have paid dues longer and could BUMP someone else . Talk about a system that breeds quality !

LaOtto222 · « **Reply #31 on:** November 21, 2008, 02:16:12 AM »

This is about a big three bail out. How about Toyota, Honda, BMW some of the other American manufactures? They are foreign owned, but made in America. They seem to be doing just fine. Why? Comparable models have similar prices. So what makes the difference? I think they are better managed for 1. Their manufacturing costs are not as high for another. Their line workers cost about $45 an hour with all fringes rolled in. The Big three is about in the $75 range with all fringes rolled in. That does not account for retiree benefits. GM is loosing around $2600 with every car that goes out the door. How did the big three get here? It was management and unions that got them to where they are today. They held each others hand as they skipped merrily along oblivious to the business world around them. I am guessing on this, but I am willing to bet that with the mood that congress is in, they are going to tell the big three to go chapter 11. That means that all contracts are off, including Union contracts, supplier contracts, etc. It will force the big three to step back and re-look at every thing they are doing. That would include renegotiating all of their contracts, including the Union contracts. Of course that is what Congress has told them, re-look at every thing and come back and tell us how giving you money is going to rescue you and exactly how much do you need. They had better have some plans for restructuring their way of doing business. I firmly believe we need the big three to help stabilize the economy. With out them, there will be a domino effect with one business after another failing. We will fall into a financial abyss so deep it would take decades to dig out of. Of course this is my spin on it, yours may be different. The figures I quoted above are from off of the news in the last week or so. So you can take that as fact or just inflammatory, your choice.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #32 on:** November 21, 2008, 02:18:09 AM »

you looked at who owns the big three ?

PartsMan · « **Reply #33 on:** November 21, 2008, 03:21:27 AM »

Quote from: LaOtto222 on November 21, 2008, 02:16:12 AM

I am guessing on this, but I am willing to bet that with the mood that congress is in, they are going to tell the big three to go chapter 11. That means that all contracts are off, including Union contracts, supplier contracts, etc. It will force the big three to step back and re-look at every thing they are doing. That would include renegotiating all of their contracts, including the Union contracts.

That's the best idea I've heard yet.

myronman3 · « **Reply #34 on:** November 21, 2008, 03:22:50 AM »

when reading this post, you can tell who has real world experience with these matters, and which members spout off repeating what they heard rush say.

Troyboy · « **Reply #35 on:** November 21, 2008, 03:26:53 AM »

Don't blame the unions. Thank them for keeping wages livable. It's the upper management that is the problem. They want it to look like it's the unions so they can make more money. WAKE UP put the blame where it is due the private jets, retention bonuses, 10million salaries and all the other perks.BTW we can not let the big three fold the economy can not handle that if they do we all will be out of work. I for one do not want to see that to prove a point. There are some things that have to have some government help and this is one of them.It's real easy to say one thing but live it is another.What you gonna do if you arn't working because your job ends.Double digit unemployment is catastrophic. You have buy your way out of a recession. That means poeple need to spend money in order to do that they have to have jobs. You have to look at the bigger picture not the shortsighted and narrow minded view.

ms · « **Reply #36 on:** November 21, 2008, 03:37:51 AM »

Quote from: Troyboy on November 21, 2008, 03:26:53 AM

Don't blame the unions. Thank them for keeping wages livable. It's the upper management that is the problem. They want it to look like it's the unions so they can make more money. WAKE UP put the blame where it is due the private jets, retention bonuses, 10million salaries and all the other perks.BTW we can not let the big three fold the economy can not handle that if they do we all will be out of work. I for one do not want to see that to prove a point. There are some things that have to have some government help and this is one of them.It's real easy to say one thing but live it is another.What you gonna do if you arn't working because your job ends.Double digit unemployment is catastrophic. You have buy your way out of a recession. That means poeple need to spend money in order to do that they have to have jobs. You have to look at the bigger picture not the shortsighted and narrow minded view.

THE NWO BUSH THE PUPPET AND GREEN SPAN IS TO BLAME. How can we spend Billion's on Iraq but not help the people here. They want a loan not a bailout.

Questor · « **Reply #37 on:** November 21, 2008, 04:07:49 AM »

If the big 3 can't compete, they need to either go out of business entirely, or file for bankruptcy and reorganize, just like any real business. It wasn't that long ago that they were making tons of money on trucks and SUVs and not saving for hard times. They spent it all on profit sharing. The unions are a real drag on them, but I don't fault the unions. I fault the car companies because they have been blind to the realities of global competition and now they want to make us pay the price.

magooch · « **Reply #38 on:** November 21, 2008, 04:53:03 AM »

I worked for over 37 years in a unionized industry and I'm glad that I did. It's true that there are plus and minus aspects of unionism, but overall it is beneficial to the workers and can be to the company. How is it beneficial to the company?

The industry I worked in, for the most part, requires very highly skilled and experienced workers. After a certain time, these workers become so essential to the operation that they could demand higher pay than the less experienced employees. Due to the union contract, the pay and benefits are set, so the company doesn't have to deal with a steady procession of workers requesting a pay raise.

What does all that have to do with "bailing out" the U.S. auto industry? Nothing, but I don't think it is fair to blame the unions for the current difficulty in the industry. Regardless of union contracts, it's still up to the management to organize and provide incentive to their workers to do their jobs well and profitably.

I'm not sure whether I agree with loaning any industry money to stay in business. It kind of goes against free market capitalism, but if there is a decent chance of it actually working as it did in the past with Chrysler for instance, it might be preferable to the consequences of the industry going under.

gypsyman · « **Reply #39 on:** November 21, 2008, 07:41:48 AM »

The Unions didn't do a thing, when the auto company's went and built plants overseas. How many good paying jobs that might still be in this country, had the Unions stood up for their workers. How many billions of dollars of overseas products are unloaded at the ports, by union workers. I've seen and heard good and bad by the unions. Part of this is their fault, part by greedy management, trying to cut the bottom line. gypsyman

myronman3 · « **Reply #40 on:** November 21, 2008, 09:16:03 AM »

Quote from: gypsyman on November 21, 2008, 07:41:48 AM

The Unions didn't do a thing, when the auto company's went and built plants overseas. How many good paying jobs that might still be in this country, had the Unions stood up for their workers. How many billions of dollars of overseas products are unloaded at the ports, by union workers. I've seen and heard good and bad by the unions. Part of this is their fault, part by greedy management, trying to cut the bottom line. gypsyman

you are kidding, right? again, you have no idea how things work. you are just demonizing unions without knowing how unions/companies work. unions do NOT make company management decisions.

Questor · « **Reply #41 on:** November 21, 2008, 10:26:06 AM »

The unions don't make company management decisions, but company management makes decisions based on labor costs. The UAW did do something: it negotiated its members out of job security. Soon the UAW's slogan may change from "working together" to "not working together".

Some will say that it is company greed that drives some decisions. The simple fact is that companies are not beholden to their workers, they are beholden to their share holders.

In the case of the big 3, their management sometimes still seems to think that this is 1960 and that GM is invincible, so their general cluelessness hasn't helped their situation much. I think they're about to wake up and taste reality (assuming they don't get the pork they want from Washington now.)

billy_56081 · « **Reply #42 on:** November 21, 2008, 12:40:30 PM »

I'll say it again and I do have real world experiance, I am a person who is contracted to calibrate equipment at many different places. At the non union shops the management and employess work together and I see the workers that work hard get ahead. At the union shops I see the workers slacking off and doing the bare minimum to get by. At the non union shops thier break times are linited to 15 minutes when i work with non union shops the breaks can last up to 45 minutes. Unions may at one time have been a good thing and protected the workers. Now the union protects the lazy and slow workers that should be canned along with the good workers. In a union job there is no reason to excel as senority is the only factor in promotion or raises. I hope that the big 3 file chapter 11 break the contracts, get rid of the union and crush the union democratic money machine.

Hairtrigger · « **Reply #43 on:** November 21, 2008, 01:01:53 PM »

I know the difference between union and non union labor.
My non union friends go to work sober everyday... cannot say that about the union friends, they pay union dues so they don't get fired.

Hairtrigger · « **Reply #44 on:** November 21, 2008, 01:06:03 PM »

Quote from: Hairtrigger on November 21, 2008, 01:01:53 PM

I know the difference between union and non union labor.
My non union friends go to work sober everyday... cannot say that about the union friends, they pay union dues so they don't get fired.

I said that to be funny but it is kind of sad how true it is.

torpedoman · « **Reply #45 on:** November 21, 2008, 03:01:54 PM »

why is ford selling a diesel car in europe that delivers 65mpg and not here. Speaking of unions what we really need is a CONSUMERS UNION one that could unite the buying public to control prices

czar · « **Reply #46 on:** November 22, 2008, 05:49:40 PM »

What bail out wall street got the bail out. I thought that GM FORD and CHRYSLER were asking for a LOAN!
And the Dems. were asking them for a Business plane then come back.And as for a lazy union worker who reads the news paper on the clock that is the company's fault documentation of a employees screwing off will get him fired union or no union! yes I work in a Union shop and I machine dies for the big three .but here we are crying about unions and the fat cats are loving it keeps the attention off there aregent butt,s.While are government is showing company's how to ship there company's out of this country that is wrong. We better start standing to gather and fight for our jobs and for are middle class status .Please tell me are you better off now than you where 8 years ago .The AMERICAN DREAM IS BEING SUCKED RIGHT OUT THIS COUNTRY !
REMBER THE FAT CATS ARE LAUGTHING AT US

scootrd · « **Reply #47 on:** November 22, 2008, 10:52:18 PM »

My thoughts.. Trickle down economics don't work, HOW ABOUT TRICKLE up? We just bailed out the financial institutions and rewarded (not awarded) them taxpayer dollars for years of bad behavior. Theres a deficit my children's children will be paying for years after I'm gone. There's incentive for ya!!

I would have taken that 700 Billion and cut a check to each American household (minus taxes), each household would then be able to buy a new car (helps the auto industry) and pay off their mortgage (helps the housing industry and alleviates bad paper and keeps people in their homes) and then shop for CHRISTmas (helps the retailers ans stimulates the economy) and then put back into my 401k what the financial institutions killed with their terrible decisions and bad behavior. And let the investment firms file chapter 11. Wow theres a better use of 700 billion.

Tell ya what big 3 I'll give ya some of my tax money as a "loan" if you agree
1.) To give America a voting stake in your company , It's our money you asking for so we should have a say in how the "loan" is going to be utilized.
2.) Upper management - take a Pay cut ! - if you accept this loan then until the loan is paid back to the American people in full you are to be paid only xxx Number of dollars more than the lowest paid employee in your company. Better yet , agree to a replacement of management , Upper management has obviously have been out of touch for years and have no business running a company. Their current methodologies and strategy's are abysmal, they are stuck in paradigms and Giving the current management in place more money to squander is like pouring money into a black hole.

3.) All "loaned dollars can only be utilized here in America and not to fund overseas ventures.
4:) Renegotiate all contracts to reduce costs, eliminate waste. Don't fly in on your corporate Jet , hat in hand and pretend your broke.
5.) Invest xxx number of dollars each year in alternative fuels advancements
6) Make a product that is more affordable for the working class people.
(it's pretty sad the people who work for your company can't even afford the product they produce).

I agree with Romney Chapter 11 is the correct strategy for any company. You can't scream free enterprise and promote capitalism only when it suits you. The big 3 need a "loan" that's what banks are for submit your business plans to them. Not the American taxpayer through our Government. Who's next Amtrak, shipping, airlines, utilities?? If my electrical company goes under , or my neighbors HVAC company can we count on the govt to step in and help bail us out? Give me a break. In addition I wouldn't ask in the first place. I would pick myself up and figure out a way on my own to keep those in my company employed, and I would start with taking a reduced paycheck.

And as far as unions are concerned - they are only as good as those representing. otherwise ABSOLUTE POWER CORRUPTS
ABSOLUTELY -

Thats my rant - whats yours

-Shaggy- · « **Reply #48 on:** November 23, 2008, 04:27:15 AM »

Quote from: scootrd on November 22, 2008, 10:52:18 PM

My thoughts.. Trickle down economics don't work, HOW ABOUT TRICKLE up? We just bailed out the financial institutions and rewarded (not awarded) them taxpayer dollars for years of bad behavior. Theres a deficit my children's children will be paying for years after I'm gone. There's incentive for ya!!

I would have taken that 700 Billion and cut a check to each American household (minus taxes), each household would then be able to buy a new car (helps the auto industry) and pay off their mortgage (helps the housing industry and alleviates bad paper and keeps people in their homes) and then shop for CHRISTmas (helps the retailers ans stimulates the economy) and then put back into my 401k what the financial institutions killed with their terrible decisions and bad behavior. And let the investment firms file chapter 11. Wow theres a better use of 700 billion.

You really need to do some math. $700 Billion is nowhere near as much per household as you think it is.

myronman3 · « **Reply #49 on:** November 23, 2008, 05:18:08 AM »

Quote

Tell ya what big 3 I'll give ya some of my tax money as a "loan" if you agree
1.) To give America a voting stake in your company , It's our money you asking for so we should have a say in how the "loan" is going to be utilized.
2.) Upper management - take a Pay cut ! - if you accept this loan then until the loan is paid back to the American people in full you are to be paid only xxx Number of dollars more than the lowest paid employee in your company. Better yet , agree to a replacement of management , Upper management has obviously have been out of touch for years and have no business running a company. Their current methodologies and strategy's are abysmal, they are stuck in paradigms and Giving the current management in place more money to squander is like pouring money into a black hole.

3.) All "loaned dollars can only be utilized here in America and not to fund overseas ventures.
4:) Renegotiate all contracts to reduce costs, eliminate waste. Don't fly in on your corporate Jet , hat in hand and pretend your broke.
5.) Invest xxx number of dollars each year in alternative fuels advancements
6) Make a product that is more affordable for the working class people.
(it's pretty sad the people who work for your company can't even afford the product they produce).

I agree with Romney Chapter 11 is the correct strategy for any company. You can't scream free enterprise and promote capitalism only when it suits you. The big 3 need a "loan" that's what banks are for submit your business plans to them. Not the American taxpayer through our Government. Who's next Amtrak, shipping, airlines, utilities?? If my electrical company goes under , or my neighbors HVAC company can we count on the govt to step in and help bail us out? Give me a break. In addition I wouldn't ask in the first place. I would pick myself up and figure out a way on my own to keep those in my company employed, and I would start with taking a reduced paycheck.

And as far as unions are concerned - they are only as good as those representing. otherwise ABSOLUTE POWER CORRUPTS
ABSOLUTELY -

some very good points. the only thing is, i still aint comfortable with them getting their fingers in on taxes; no matter what they agree to.

Questor · « **Reply #50 on:** November 24, 2008, 02:31:23 AM »

I find it interesting that GM is asking for 25 billion, while their market capitalization is only 1.87 billion. That very low figure really surprised me. I thought it was worth more. Lots of assets for sure, but the liabilities must be horrendous.

mechanic · « **Reply #51 on:** November 24, 2008, 04:17:16 AM »

Under our constitution, the government should not bail out any private industry. We've headed down a slippery slope that began incrementally long ago. The government should not have bailed Chrysler years ago. Yes, I know they made good and paid the money back. But that was unfair to the other automakers at that time, almost like the government was competing with Chrysler against them.

The federal government should not be able to give money to anyone in the private sector, for any reason. Local and state gov's. may have that right, but not the Feds.

If we were to, or could go back to constitutional government as the writers founded it and practiced it, D.C. would become a ghost town.

We are now in the act of becoming a socialist country, and have been doing so for a long time. Pres. Bush and the GOP are guilty of this as well. (Prescription drug program?)

I don't even believe Social Security is constitutional on it's face, but there is no way to turn it back now.

We have seen firsthand what dependence on the government produces in New Orleans and other places recently.

God help us,

Ben

Brett · « **Reply #52 on:** November 25, 2008, 12:35:09 AM »

I say bail them out with one stipulation. Every working, tax paying American gets one free vehicle of his/her choice from any of the 'Big Three'.

Hairtrigger · « **Reply #53 on:** November 25, 2008, 12:55:54 AM »

Quote from: Brett on November 25, 2008, 12:35:09 AM

I say bail them out with one stipulation. Every working, tax paying American gets one free vehicle of his/her choice from any of the 'Big Three'.

I would rather have a quality American (in Indiana!) made Toyota or Honda

Brett · « **Reply #54 on:** November 25, 2008, 03:10:17 AM »

Quote from: Hairtrigger on November 25, 2008, 12:55:54 AM

Quote from: Brett on November 25, 2008, 12:35:09 AM
I say bail them out with one stipulation. Every working, tax paying American gets one free vehicle of his/her choice from any of the 'Big Three'.

I would rather have a quality American (in Indiana!) made Toyota or Honda

Have to agree with you there. It's interesting to note that Toyota and Honda don't seem to be on the brink of financial ruin. Their sales may be down some due to the economy but they don't need and aren't looking for a hand out.

Heather · « **Reply #55 on:** November 25, 2008, 06:51:41 AM »

I say let the auto makers fail also. The money that they are planning on throwing at these companies could be much better spent on designing a transportation industry completely independent from fuel. The technology is already here! I may be crazy, but I don't think it is the Governments place to bailout ANYONE or ANY COMPANY!

Heather

wgr · « **Reply #56 on:** November 25, 2008, 05:13:57 PM »

GM was bailed out once befor with our tax mony and they are right back in the same shape its time that they worked it out own there own

Matt · « **Reply #57 on:** November 25, 2008, 06:04:16 PM »

Quote from: wgr on November 25, 2008, 05:13:57 PM

GM was bailed out once befor with our tax mony and they are right back in the same shape its time that they worked it out own there own

so was Chrysler

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #58 on:** December 01, 2008, 08:58:39 AM »

if the govt. dosen't bail them out the ones that loose their retirement will be on wealfare !
With a bail out there is a slight chance of getting paid back .
either way the rest of us get scre- - d !

gypsyman · « **Reply #59 on:** December 01, 2008, 12:50:03 PM »

I remember talking with a friend of mine back in the '80's about this. He worked for Chrysler for 30+ years. He kept up his union dues, until he retired, even though he worked for management for the last 15 years he was there. Told me plenty of stories about workers getting caught stealing, loafing off, all the paid holidays and such. Unions always stood up for their workers, even though they were guilty as sin.We agreed even back then, about good paying jobs leaving this country. In the beer business with my parents, seen Teamsters hauling beer in from the brewery's, and cross the Glassworkers picket line, outside the beer distributers, because they were on strike. So much for Union brotherhood!! Kinda look at the Longshoreman like this. Lets go make our $30 or $40 and hour, unloading these boats from the Pacific rim, while tens of thousands go unemployed because of this. Kinda like the gun law analogy, as long as the gov't doesn't outlaw the gun's I like to shoot, why should I care. Well, someday those Longshoreman will be replaced with computerized machine's, and they'll be out of a job to. And when they look for help from their ''Union Brother's'', there will not be any. They all be working Walmart, making minimun wage,part time. As far retirements and pensions go, if they couldn't see what was coming, and draw out what was coming to them, well, I guess they should consider this a vauluble lesson. Maybe next time, they'll think for themselves. gypsyman