Author Topic: Need some input on home defense shotguns. (Read 3224 times)

darrell8937 · « **Reply #30 on:** November 22, 2008, 11:09:09 AM »

Oh.. yea!! On the short stroke issue,, practice and treat it like you hate it! Sorry so many posts in a row! Forgivness is divine! Rember. Ill trust my training over a 49 cent oring and gas system! In a panic, people apply more force, likley not to short stroke. I have seen short stroking many times. They were all casual back yard shoots,, skeet or targets. I have never seen a duck huner with "drake fever ", short stroke! Like a Marlin Lever,, treat it like you hate it! and practice.

Bigeasy · « **Reply #31 on:** November 22, 2008, 11:09:54 AM »

Mannyrock has a good point. Short stroking a pump (brand does not really matter) can be a problem. I have seen this often with people who shoot just once a year, when they are forced to qualify.

Like anything else in life, practice makes perfect. Muscle memory thru repetition is for real, and comes to play during stressful situations where you do not have time to think things thru.

If you are serious about using a pump shotgun, or any gun for that matter, for home / self defence, then you have to practice with it. If you cant pick up your weapon of choice and load, unload, and manipulate the controls without having to stop and think about it, then you are placing yourself at a disadvantage.

In all honesty, a semi-auto shotgun would probably serve the average home owner just as well as a pump. My recommendation of the 870 is based on extensive testing of various types and brands of shotguns under what would probably be unrealistic conditions for the average home owner.

What it really boils down to is practice regularly with what ever you choose - That's what really makes the difference.

Larry

swordfish · « **Reply #32 on:** November 22, 2008, 11:25:10 AM »

I stand corrected. I have no military or urban defense training, only natural instinct but see what you're saying. Will purchase accordingly.

Thanks

Default · « **Reply #33 on:** November 22, 2008, 11:36:33 AM »

Bill i had the same trouble as you then tried "Model 1 sales " in a google search to get it...

And manny i agree semi or pump is all about ones prefrence and what the are familiar/comfortable with....

I heard it said once that in a home invasion encounter nothing is quite so deafing as the sound "Click" ...
I tend to lean to that with the sound of a pump shucking in that first round in the dead quiet of my house...To the foe that sound must be louder then the gun fire itself
Just my 2 cent

Default

mannyrock · « **Reply #34 on:** November 23, 2008, 12:31:43 PM »

I'll go out on a limb further, and say that for the average home owner, for home defense only, a semi-auto in 20 gauge, with no. 4 buck, a 20 inch barrel, and a cylinder choke, is the best all around shotgun. Light, handy, lightening quick, and devastating at house distances (up to 25 feet), there is absolutely no need for a 12 in this scenario.

Mannyrock

Illhunter · « **Reply #35 on:** November 23, 2008, 01:36:27 PM »

i have been looking at this thread off and on and for me a pump is a great HD gun but do you really want the BG to know you are coming. so my HD gun would be a double within 12 ga or 20ga with #4 or #6 shot with 20" bbl and at 25 ft range any choke would be fine and an elastic butt cuff with 5 more shot if need be cause to be honest in HD situation you don't really need more than 2 cause the first shot in the dark that hits the BG it is over and if you ever do have to use it you will loose it so you don't want to be out alot of money either so wouldn't want to loose the hunting guns. this is my .02 cents

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #36 on:** November 24, 2008, 02:39:02 AM »

Lot of good imfo. some like the bottom eject guns , two things one less hole to clear a stoppage and hulls end up under feet and good footing could be lost . I have had owned one BPS that would jam if the poly filler in shells leaked out and got under the shell stop and knew of two others that belonged to friends one BPS the other a mod 37 . I like these guns so no axe to grind , just passing along experinces .

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #37 on:** November 24, 2008, 05:40:40 AM »

No one says you have to put all $ in to the gun at once.
Get the shotgun you want.
Personally I would keep the stock on it but if you want a pistol grip install it and take it to the range.
You can add mag extentions, flash light foreend or night sight ghost ring sights as you have the $.
Again inline weapons lights work with a 1913 rail screwed into the plastic foreend. There are even options to use standard flash lights with the rear switch and use your thumb to turn it on and off.
The used rack is an option. Buy a used 870/ 500 / 1300 or other take it home, take it apart and clean it, reassemble it and go to the range for function tests.
Oh by the way if you bend a couple 3 foot lonf strips of sheet metal and paint them (so they don't rust and your wife beats you with the shotgun) slide them inbetween the matress and the box spring on your dise of the bed and drop the gun into the hooks you bent into the strips and it's out of sight and easy to get hold of if needed and when the bed is made it is gone from sight, even with a full stock.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #38 on:** November 24, 2008, 06:49:34 AM »

It might be good to try the weapon before mods are added . The beauty of the shotgun is speed and weight and gizmoes slow things down . Do you really want a white light on the gun ? the one you point it at might be family or other non targets . I have a knoxx butt stock on one and a side saddle shell holder on one . the added weight and location of shell holder messes up blance of the gun to me . but extra ammo is nice guess i will flip a coin . the knoxx stock i like so far - pistol grip, adjustable and reduces felt recoil , whats not to like really . A simple sling can catch on things and get you hurt .
remember KISS !
keep it simple stupid ! lets face it you get awaken out of a good sleep and go to switch on the white light and the gun goes off is bad form .

Savage · « **Reply #39 on:** November 24, 2008, 08:16:06 AM »

For me, the only things needed on a good reliable 20" pump or autoloader is an extended mag tube, and a white light. No ammo cuffs, bayonets, lasers, or ghost anything on mine please. Charge her up with just about any flavor buckshot. Fully loaded and chambered of course. No warning racks or shots in my house. I'm not going to give up any advantage I might have.
Savage

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #40 on:** November 24, 2008, 09:04:16 AM »

Savage,
I agree.
If I were to build up a pure home defence gun it would be an auto loading 1100 with a pistol stock and extended mag tube on an 18-20 inch barrel.
I want the pistol grip full stock so I can use my left hand to open doors and use a light. I want the shoulder stock on the gun as a counter weight for single hand operation as I move through the house to get to the kids or am using the phone to call 911. If you do not have kids and the wife is in the room with you, you do not need to move through the house.

Savage · « **Reply #41 on:** November 24, 2008, 11:56:17 AM »

Although I don't use a shotgun for home defense, if I did it'd be my short 1100. After I retired, I gave my 870 Wingmaster patrol shotgun to a good friend and former chief. I have been meaning to fix up my 1100 to use in 3 gun matches. I think an extended mag tube and a light mount will do it. Good to go for matches or home defense should I decide to use it rather than an AR. The 1100 is a good choice for either.
Savage

Illhunter · « **Reply #42 on:** November 24, 2008, 01:33:58 PM »

here is a few HD guns for you

http://www.auctionarms.com/search/displayitem.cfm?itemnum=8894117

http://www.auctionarms.com/search/displayitem.cfm?itemnum=8894182

444xl · « **Reply #43 on:** November 29, 2008, 04:20:59 PM »

mossberg 500 turkey model take the plug out holds 6 /000 buckshot.

myronman3 · « **Reply #44 on:** November 30, 2008, 04:58:12 AM »

i dont understand the dislike of the mossbergs. dad has a 12, i had a 590, and i have a 500 in 20 gauge. all of these were as dependable as it gets. years ago i decided to stop cleaning the 20 and see just how much it could take. i cant even tell you how many times i have fired that gun, without cleaning it. it keeps on ticking. the more you use them the slicker they get. i will take the pepsi challenge against any remington, benelli, or beretta, winchester or anything else with my mossberg.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #45 on:** December 01, 2008, 03:24:44 AM »

for me the safty is in a bad place , have to relax grip to move it .
where do you get #4 buck for a 20 ga. ?

myronman3 · « **Reply #46 on:** December 01, 2008, 06:28:28 AM »

Quote from: SHOOTALL on December 01, 2008, 03:24:44 AM

for me the safty is in a bad place , have to relax grip to move it .
where do you get #4 buck for a 20 ga. ?

i cast and load all of my ammo except .22lr, so i can make anything i want.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #47 on:** December 01, 2008, 07:43:31 AM »

i just got the data for slugs and buckshot , ran out of 0 buck for 20 ga.

rex6666 · « **Reply #48 on:** December 01, 2008, 09:08:14 AM »

I have a Ithca mod. 37 that i bought new in 1969, ribed barrel and all
it has never failed. I used to run 2-3 cases of shells through it in dove season
(not as mad at the dove any more) it has never been apart only washed out with gun scrubber or the like. A few years ago i found a barrel for it and cut it to 18.5"
that is my HG. You can find used 870's pretty reasonable, cut one down.
What does the HD guns have that a regular shot gun doesn't add a mag ext.
if need be.

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #49 on:** December 01, 2008, 09:51:17 AM »

After reading all the responses I think it does not matter what scatter gun you start off with. You will modify the gun to what you need or think you need. If you are going to move through the house to gather your kids. I would suggest that you just move to them and stay there. For this I would want to have spare ammo on the gun. My sleep clothes do not include ammo for the camp cannon.
If you do not have kids and are just going to stay in the room and call 911 on the cell phone to wait for help, any version will work.
If you want the gun for outside the house to ward off looters and other possible trouble makers. I would want ammo on the gun, and a bright light. Looters are looking for an easy target and the simple light on them will in most cases make them move on to easier targets than you. If not you are already ready and have both hands on the gun and spare ammo on the gun in case things get really ugly. It is easy to dump off 5 rounds and not think about it. Having an extra 5 or 6 on the gun may not be a bad idea. I know there are two schools on lights on guns and everyone is worried about sweeping the gun on family while looking around as well as the scare response. I agree with the handgun, especally for people that do not use it often. But for the scatter gun, I like the idea for outside the home. You are going to move around un the house to make sure everyone is accounted for and if you move out of the house to chase off looters....
Also in the case of a camp cannon, or do you perfer the home howitzer?, you can leave it in the closet and have the handgun in the night stand to use while you go get it.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #50 on:** December 02, 2008, 04:53:26 AM »

lights, if the looter truns out to be someone other than the looter and you are pointing a deadly weapon at them , well ya open yourself to several unplesant experinces from embarrasment to getting shot . Why leave a good defence position to "chase" a looter ?
Why not wait in a conceled position until you are threatened ?

dukkillr · « **Reply #51 on:** December 02, 2008, 08:28:38 AM »

When your life depends on it do you really want the only thing standing between you and the bad guy to be the cheapest shotgun on the market?

This is simple: There is nothing an 870, Post M-12 Winchester, or Mossberg can do that a BPS won't do better.

For you hardcore 870 guys, how many times do you think you'd fail to shove that shell far enough into magazine and have it back up and jam? I've done under no pressure when my fingers get cold. Can't imagine if I was in a hurry and my life was on the line.

I've guided wing shooters, turkey hunters, and shot a lot of skeet and trap. I've seen so many cheap guns fail that I can't keep track. You know what they all say? "Well I've shot 1,938,652 cases of shells through [cheap POS shotgun model of your choice] and this is the first time it's ever hung up." All I can do is smile and wait until next week when I see the same thing happen again.

My personal choice? A Winchester Model 12 in 12 guage. But if you read this is an endorsement of any modern Winchester shotguns go back and reread above.

myronman3 · « **Reply #52 on:** December 02, 2008, 08:40:29 AM »

alright, so why do you think the bps is the choice arm for said duty?

dukkillr · « **Reply #53 on:** December 02, 2008, 08:43:33 AM »

Because they are currently made.

myronman3 · « **Reply #54 on:** December 02, 2008, 08:56:08 AM »

say what? you mean in production?

dukkillr · « **Reply #55 on:** December 02, 2008, 09:05:02 AM »

Yup. Browning is still making the BPS. Winchester is not currently making the Model 12. The shorter barreled "trench guns" are somewhat collectable and have a higher value because of it.

I would also suggest that the M-12 requires a higher level of comfort than an average shotgun. The pumping mechanics are different, the reloading is moderately different. The cleaning is more complicated. If you've spent enough time using them they are faster to point, faster to cycle, and faster to reload than any other choice. If you haven't spent enough time around them, it could be a disaster.

Anyone can go to a store, buy a BPS, and use if flawlessly. That's why I'd recommend it even though I personally choose something else.

myronman3 · « **Reply #56 on:** December 02, 2008, 09:14:02 AM »

i have a bps, as does my brother. he has shot the hell out of his, while i recently purchased mine. while i like it, the real reason i bought it was that mossbergs are going for 330-370 around here, and the owner had the bps sitting there that he just took in and i got it for 200. it has the short barrel and the uplander stock. while i know bps fans like their bps's, and there are differences, reliability wise i dont think there is a difference. i know value wise the bps wins, and it is made from better parts than the mossberg. but like i said, the mossberg is a workhorse. i think the reality is that any reliable pump action shotgun that the person is comfortable using will fill the bill.

myronman3 · « **Reply #57 on:** December 02, 2008, 09:15:25 AM »

i will tell you the down side to the bps....try taking one apart and putting it back together once. the mossberg is easy, the bps will drive you nuts.

dukkillr · « **Reply #58 on:** December 02, 2008, 09:59:14 AM »

Quote from: myronman3 on December 02, 2008, 09:14:02 AM

i have a bps, as does my brother. he has shot the hell out of his, while i recently purchased mine. while i like it, the real reason i bought it was that mossbergs are going for 330-370 around here, and the owner had the bps sitting there that he just took in and i got it for 200. it has the short barrel and the uplander stock. while i know bps fans like their bps's, and there are differences, reliability wise i dont think there is a difference. i know value wise the bps wins, and it is made from better parts than the mossberg. but like i said, the mossberg is a workhorse. i think the reality is that any reliable pump action shotgun that the person is comfortable using will fill the bill.

And, as always, all I can say is this: In my experience in using and watching hundreds of shotguns be used first hand, I would not trust my life to a Mossberg, 1300, or other cheap shotgun. It's not that I'm a "BPS fan" it's that I'm a reliability and quality fan. Don't take my word for it... Ask GB if he's noticed Mossbergs failing at the range. Hell, ask any serious shooter.

And there are exactly 7 parts: Trigger, ejector latch, two pieces of bolt, ejector, and two magazine catches, (plus 2 pins) in a BPS. The first few times you take it apart it's a challenge because you don't know how to line the trigger up without knocking the magazine catches out of the way. Once you've done it a few times it takes no time at all. I could do it in the dark.

Use whatever you want. Use a muzzleloading flintlock .410 for all I care... But what I said continues to be true: I can't understand why someone would trust their life to the cheapest shotgun on the market. They aren't cheap because the use the highest quality parts and craftsmanship.

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #59 on:** December 02, 2008, 10:06:12 AM »

I have a bunch of pump guns and all have worked out great. From an 1897 riot model to a Benelli nova.
I have had a BPS upland that I gave to my Cousin for his 11th birthday.
I liked the little gun and it worked flawlessly. The only down side I have had with it, a Ithaca 37, and Remington M 10 is that if and when you shoot it dry you can't just roll one in quickly.
My favorite scatter gun is the 97 riot model but with a fixed cylinder bore and a 6 round capasity it gets limited to what it can hunt.
I have a freind that is the 870 Police Mag and only the police mag for anything. I have watched him fowel up the gun a few times in team bowling pin shoots. He didn't like my 97 cause it broke once in the field, Still fired but failed to eject and it was made in 1914. $30 worth of parts and smith work and it was good as new.
I do have an 870 that is set up for three gun and I bought it off the shelf. So far it has only failed when someone else was using it and a little time on the range after the shoot with it and he didn't have a problem after.
With you guiding and seeing problems I wonder how many of them are borrowed guns or guns they do not use often and fumble with shells and controls being used to other fancier guns not well suited for waterfowel or turkey. I have had a few borrow my Blind gun the, Nova for slimy hunts.
At the Trap club a few guys have cheap "Blind" guns that go duck and goose hunting and get shot once or twice before opening day. The blind guns tend to be cheap pump guns with black or camo stocks that take 3 to 3.5 inch shells, while the trap gun they shoot twice a week is a $3K Beretta O/U with 1 Oz 8's or 9's. It's fun to watch when they shoot doubles with the trombone gun and forget that it is not the O/U and do not cycle the gun and squeeze the trigger real hard a bunch of times. Fortunatly for me I have never had a problem going from single shot to Side by side, to O/U, to auto, to Pump and back in any direction. Most of my SXS shotguns are two trigger models with three single triggers mixed in and I have not gone looking for one that is not there or not pulled the same one twice when I needed a new one. Knock on wood.