Author Topic: Interior ballistics: 45-120 vs 450 NE (Read 2665 times)

AtlLaw · « **on:** November 21, 2008, 02:20:30 PM »

Theory! Ain't it just grand!

Oh BTW Tim, feel free to move this to the reloading forum if you think it's more appropriate, I just figgered that the 45/120 shooters are here.

Anyway, I got to thinkin last night... I know, I know, that means a looong post...

Be that as it may, since I was plannin on huntin this weekend I figgered I'd be able to do in a Bambi with my BC classic barrel so I could get on with my 45/120 project. Which started me thinkin about my criteria (500 gr. jacketed bullet @ 2150) which started me thinkin about handloads. Now, I've just scratched the surface of this subject with my research, but maybe you guys with practical experience can give me your opinions so let me bounce some thoughts off y'all. It's a wise man who learns from the experience of others...

It seems there ain't a bunch of data out there for the 45/120. What there is is low pressure/BP/cast bullet data.

But Google 450 NE and there's a lot of really good stuff! After all, it is the quintessential DG cartridge!

So what we have are 2 cartridges, both with 3.25" long cases, both using a .458 projectile. I haven't compared case dimensions but I should think they are close and therefore the case capacities and case head thrust would be also.

It seems the operating pressure of the 450 NE is (was) 18 tons which would seem to be around 36K PPSI, unless the used imperial tons, so say 40K. That seems to me to be within the Handi's limits. Uh, no, I don't know how the English proof houses measured the pressure in 1905...

So, WHY NOT JUST RECHAMBER THE HANDI FOR THE 450 NE!!!!

Then we could use that shiny new factory load Hornady now has for the 450 NE.

No, just kidding... the thought did cross my mind though...

But it does seem that the data for 450 NE could be used in developing 45/120 loads. Interpolating could yield some starting loads, powders, etc. I've never even considered doing this before, but what the heck, I'm gettin close to the end of this ride anyway...

billy_56081 · « **Reply #1 on:** November 21, 2008, 02:53:32 PM »

Would be nice to know the volume of each case. Either way your 45-120 should be a real thumper.

AtlLaw · « **Reply #2 on:** November 21, 2008, 02:59:46 PM »

Ain't no doubt about it! Did you see Tyke's vid of him shooting that 700 some odd gr. load?

You're right, I should have dug up the respective volumes / interior case dimensions, but I couldn't wait!

quickdtoo · « **Reply #3 on:** November 21, 2008, 03:00:05 PM »

My 45-120 case capacity is 125gr water, 450 NE is 119gr. 450 NE data isn't easy to find, but I did find some listed in an ADI .pdf as well as on the ADI website, they also list data for the 45-120 including several Hodgdon powders. Hodgdon is known to rename their powders, so you're on your own there.

http://ammoguide.com/?catid=446

http://ammoguide.com/?catid=152

http://chasse-tir.ifrance.com/Tables%20Poudres%20ADI.pdf

http://www.thalesgroup.com.au/handloaders-guide/equivalents.asp

http://www.thalesgroup.com.au/handloaders-guide/rifle.asp

You're more than welcome to shoot Hornady 450NE ammo, but be prepared to take out a second mortgage to afford it!!

Tim

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=971398

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=974253

AtlLaw · « **Reply #4 on:** November 21, 2008, 03:09:11 PM »

Ah Timmy me lad! I knew I could count on you!

So the case capacity is close. What do you think about my operating pressure and case head thrust assumptions?

Oh, and $116 + for 20 rounds ain't that bad...

dpe.ahoy · « **Reply #5 on:** November 21, 2008, 03:55:32 PM »

"$116+ for 20 rounds ain't that bad..." Man, you gotta quit makin' shims for everyone, yer gettin' outa touch.

I just paid $97.95 for 5 boxes of 35 rem gummy bear tipped Hornadys today. DP

AtlLaw · « **Reply #6 on:** November 21, 2008, 04:11:51 PM »

My shim stock refreshin has been curtailed for the last couple of weeks since I been on these antibiotics. Gonna have to do a man's day's work to refresh my supply!

I saw your other post about buying that ammo. Not a bad deal! You DO reload don't you?

tykempster · « **Reply #7 on:** November 21, 2008, 04:26:19 PM »

Just have Quick do some quickload data for you or PM me. I've shot plenty of loads (some over 40k) and nothing bad has happened. I keep it right around 40k pressures for most stuff and everything locks up tight still, and aside from the recoil knocking the sights out of alignment the gun is good to go.

My fired cases hold 128 grains water I believe.

dodd3 · « **Reply #8 on:** November 21, 2008, 04:35:11 PM »

Quote from: quickdtoo on November 21, 2008, 03:00:05 PM

My 45-120 case capacity is 125gr water, 450 NE is 119gr. 450 NE data isn't easy to find, but I did find some listed in an ADI .pdf as well as on the ADI website, they also list data for the 45-120 including several Hodgdon powders. Hodgdon is known to rename their powders, so you're on your own there.

http://ammoguide.com/?catid=446

http://ammoguide.com/?catid=152

http://chasse-tir.ifrance.com/Tables%20Poudres%20ADI.pdf

http://www.thalesgroup.com.au/handloaders-guide/equivalents.asp

http://www.thalesgroup.com.au/handloaders-guide/rifle.asp

You're more than welcome to shoot Hornady 450NE ammo, but be prepared to take out a second mortgage to afford it!!

Tim

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=971398

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=974253

tim adi makes most of hogdon powders adi ar2208 is hogdons vargat and adi ar2207 is hodgdons 4198 if you look up the data from there sites on the 45/120 they are the same.ps afriend has a ruger #1 in 450 ne and a #1 in 45/120 he says that the 45/120 is a beter round than the 450ne both guns have 28" heavy barrels
bernie

quickdtoo · « **Reply #9 on:** November 21, 2008, 05:27:50 PM »

Quote from: AtlLaw on November 21, 2008, 03:09:11 PM

Ah Timmy me lad! I knew I could count on you! So the case capacity is close. What do you think about my operating pressure and case head thrust assumptions?

Oh, and $116 + for 20 rounds ain't that bad...

Here's a previous post on that subject.

Tim

Quote from: quickdtoo on August 05, 2008, 03:32:58 PM

I did a little calculatin myself using an online calculator, hope it's what I want. The 500S&W has an operating pressure of over 50kpsi and an inside case head diameter of .501", that calculates to over 9800lbs of breech thrust, and the 500S&W has roughly half the case wall contact of the 45-120. Bell 45 Basic brass has an inside case head diameter of ~.420" as near as I can measure it, that calculates to 6900lbs of breech thrust at 50kpsi. I don't know how thick Norma brass is, but the Bell is considerably thicker than the 500S&W brass at the case head. Considering the generally accepted premise that straight walled cases have just as much pressure exerted on the case walls as the case head, I don't think Tyler's loads are any more dangerous than 500S&W loads in any other respect than the tremendous recoil affects which should be considered as STUMPJMPR pointed out.

Tim

Calculating bolt(breech) thrust

NFG · « **Reply #10 on:** November 21, 2008, 05:38:36 PM »

Which 450 NE are you talking about...there are a couple, 3" and 3.25", and a 450-400 NE...I guessing the Hornady...and the Barnes manual lists a 450-400 3" which uses a 0.408" bullet.

My LD lists a 450 NE at 134.69 gr H20, a 450-400 at 123.94 and one called the 450-400 Nitro at 90.719.

I would hazard a guess that most people haven't heard much about the Nitro Express cartridges, them being English and a bit long in the tooth, except for the newer Hornady offerings. Taking the 45-70 out to 120 can be done by hand reaming, plus it being more readily identifable and the others require a bit more work.

The 450 Nitro Express, the largest case capacity one, has a rim diameter of 0.626" and a base dia of 0.545". This makes my tongue drip and my hands shake.

But you are right...it would be a great cartridge for the NEF and a simple rechamber. Other than the cases costing an arm and a leg plus one of your huevose, and the ammo the rest of your anatomy...I don't see any problem with doing it. You could start with bottom loads of 460 Weatherby as the have the almost the same.

As long as you kept the loads at the bottom end of the 460 Weatherby scale the pressure would be low enough for the NEF...somewhere around 2350 f/s with a 500 gr bullet.

The problem with using the NEF with it's limited pressure potential and TOO large a case is you get a very inefficient load platform. You will need more powder to get the same velocity as a smaller more efficient case and you can't get the pressure up high enough to really utilize the actual potential of the larger case.

It also depends on the actual case capacities. My LD lists the 45-120 at 113 gr, Ty said his is 125 gr, and the 450 Nitro Express at 135 g...there isn't enough difference to matter in the NEF but in something that could handle a higher pressure it would make some difference in the velocity and quite a bit of difference in the energy level because the energy level goes up as the square of the velocity.

I think you start running into that wall around 115-120 gr H20 with the NEF.

Either of the Hornady offerings would work as they are loaded for double rifles judging from Hornady's velocities.

No matter how you cut the pie...a 500 gr bullet at 2000-2300 f/s will still take home the bacon and is an impressive cartridge to wave about.

Do one then tell us how much fun you're having.

Smokin Joe · « **Reply #11 on:** November 22, 2008, 04:38:26 AM »

That .040 rim thickness of the NE might give you a few problems.

NFG · « **Reply #12 on:** November 22, 2008, 05:33:53 AM »

Another reason not to get too high with the pressure...the NEF spring ejector won't cause much trouble I would suspect...it's too weak to rip off a piece of rim, but using a positive extractor might.

There are many reasons not to get all hairy legged and macho with the NEF system and tread lightly...or just use factory ammo.

The 450 NE will work great with the NEF I think, as long as all the parameters are considered and you don't expect to turn it into a 460 Weatherby.

AtlLaw · « **Reply #13 on:** November 22, 2008, 06:42:12 AM »

Quote from: NFG on November 21, 2008, 05:38:36 PM

Which 450 NE are you talking about...there are a couple, 3" and 3.25",

The 450 NE 3.25 inch as a direct comparison to the 45/120

Quote

Taking the 45-70 out to 120 can be done by hand reaming,

Yup, we had that discussion a while ago in another thread. Tim, Tyler and a few others got me thinking about it, then we hashed out the comparative virtues of the 45/ 90, 100, 110, & 120. Then I bought a BC barrel here that just happened to lock up tight on my existing 45/70, Now I'm academically exploring the limits of the cartridge I settled on for the rechamber, the 45/120, while I try to kill a deer with it in it's original chambering. I am nothing if not systematic!

Quote

The 450 Nitro Express, the largest case capacity one, has a rim diameter of 0.626" and a base dia of 0.545". This makes my tongue drip and my hands shake.

You must be as old as me... $:-\$ I remember the day when wimmins used to elicit that reaction...

Quote

it would be a great cartridge for the NEF and a simple rechamber.

I assume you are talking about the 450 NE, not the 45/120. That would be my thought also, but it was just a passing thought. $:-\$ The idea has always been a 45/120. Buuuuuut... if I ever run up on a Ruger #1 in 45/70 at a good price...

Quote

No matter how you cut the pie...a 500 gr bullet at 2000-2300 f/s will still take home the bacon and is an impressive cartridge to wave about.

That's what the deciding point was! The shock and awe factor!

Quote

Do one then tell us how much fun you're having.

Heck, I'm not waiting till I do it to tell everyone! This is kinda like telephone sex, a lotta fun just talking about it.

Speaking of which, this thread has brought me to believe the 45/120 is probably the perfect all around cartridge on a world wide level!

We have already established it can equal the primere DG cartridge; the 450 NE 3.25. And I'll bet it wouldn't take much to develop an accurate small game load, say a few grains of Unique and a round ball or button bullet! Yup, get a Handi chambered for the 45/120 Sharps and get rid of everything else. You can do it all... anywhere in the world!

AtlLaw · « **Reply #14 on:** November 22, 2008, 06:43:49 AM »

Oh Tim... you try the 450 NE rechamber...

quickdtoo · « **Reply #15 on:** November 22, 2008, 06:55:07 AM »

Let's see, ~$4 each for brass and $283 for a die set......Um.......No thanks, I think I'll pass!!

Tim

450NE Dies

450NE Brass

NFG · « **Reply #16 on:** November 22, 2008, 12:09:48 PM »

OH YEAH...that too...or pay 117 bucks for Hornady ammo...PLUS shipping.

There are several good cartridge cases in the 2 dollar range and dies in the $100-150 range what can be used just the same way...AND a couple already available that could be used to soup up the NEF...just be sure to name them something else than their original name, like my 460 Boondoggle McWildman, and whoever doing it has to have the sense to understand to load the case to the RECEIVERS capabilities not what the cartridge is listed at.

I can think of several larger cases that could be used to soup up the 500 S&W...but who wants to...most people don't want what that one puts out on the backend anyway.

But one can dream....

moxgrove · « **Reply #17 on:** November 22, 2008, 12:18:31 PM »

This site always helps me when when I am dreaming of the unique and unusual.
http://kwk.us/index.html
Right now I am spending time with the dog after birds, but this winter 20gauge from he**

AtlLaw · « **Reply #18 on:** November 22, 2008, 12:21:57 PM »

Quote from: NFG on November 22, 2008, 12:09:48 PM

I can think of several larger cases that could be used to soup up the 500 S&W...but who wants to...

500 S&W Barrel! Hummmmm $:-\$ 50/90... 50/140... 500 NE!!!!!!!!

NFG · « **Reply #19 on:** November 22, 2008, 12:45:30 PM »

Wimmin....wimmin....what are wimmin....

?? Is that some kind of new reloading tool on the market.

I was referring to rechambering to 450 NE as a simple rechamber...and it is...just chuck it up, dial it in and run in the reamer...fairly fast. Because both cases are close to the same diam and the 450 NE is just a bit longer than the 45-70, it won't be like cutting an unbored barrel. If I had to do that I would want a roughing reamer and a finishing reamer or a carbide reamer plus a through-the bore flushing system. I have a TTBS system but don't use it unless the bore is small and the case is big.

Hand reaming will work almost as well as a lathe as long as you have a cone in the rear to guide the reamer and/or be very careful. I've done several rechambers that way. You need a light touch.

My 45-100 will match a 458 Lott with 400-450 gr bullets or close enough me or the animal won't notice. The 45-110 (2.8") will give you Lott and a little beyond with 500-550 gr bullets. 45-120 will give you way the he** more than almost anyone but a S&M lover wants and most people will load it down to what you get out of a 45-70 except for pecker waving or hunting.

I'm thinking of adding a couple more pounds of lead to my BC before the 750 "plinkers" arrive, and getting my sissy bag worked over so it is nice and soft.

The 450 NE is good for sitting around the campfire with 4 fingers of JD and extolling on the hazards of a virtuous life and which kills quicker...but the 45-120 will do the same and more, at prices that fit my pocket book and temperment.

hahahahahha

Yeah...see what I mean...someone has deep pockets, too much time on their hands, or read to much "Markus dee Saddyville". 500 NE....heck my 12GAFH makes that one look like a piker....

Hahahahahah

dpe.ahoy · « **Reply #20 on:** November 22, 2008, 03:33:14 PM »

Ya'll gotta quit reading the books on self torture! I see detached brains from the spinal cords. Well, OK maybe I could be convinced to squeeze off a round or 2, but I don't think I would have as much fun as the boy Tykempster. AtlLaw, I do reload but my 14 year old found out how much fun the 35 rem can be. That old girl of mine likes the gummy bear bullets, and haven't found any to get for reloading yet. Running into the same problem with the 444 and the price of the brass, if they have any, is steep. Picked up 5 boxes of that today, but the price wasn't near as good, $28.89 a box with the 15% off. Merry Christmas to me.

Now, back to the wimmin... DP

AtlLaw · « **Reply #21 on:** November 22, 2008, 04:28:54 PM »

Quote from: NFG on November 22, 2008, 12:45:30 PM

Wimmin....wimmin....what are wimmin....??

Darn Boy!

I'm old... but you DEAD!

Quote

45-120 will give you way the he** more than almost anyone but a S&M lover wants

pecker waving or hunting.

a couple more pounds of lead ... 750 "plinkers"

sitting around the campfire with 4 fingers of JD

"Markus dee Saddyville". 500 NE....

But I like the way you think!

AtlLaw · « **Reply #22 on:** November 22, 2008, 04:35:52 PM »

Quote from: dpe.ahoy on November 22, 2008, 03:33:14 PM

Ya'll gotta quit reading the books on self torture!

Hurumph! Pain and fear are the only things that let you know your still alive!

Quote

That old girl of mine likes the gummy bear bullets,

I'm pretty impressed with them my own self!

Quote

haven't found any to get for reloading yet.

Didn't I read somewheres they were now being sold as components?

Quote

Now, back to the wimmin...

Explain that to NFG will ya

NFG · « **Reply #23 on:** November 22, 2008, 05:11:16 PM »

Hahahahahahahah...well whatever those wimmin things are I don't spend any money on them so I have more to spend on the REAL important things....like GUNS, TRUCKS, ATVS, MOTORCYCLES and HUNTING...I maybe dead, but I'm having fun being there.

Haven't had my "nose" drip in a very long time, woke up with a gorilla and no DUI's either. Being dead ain't so bad once you forgot what caused all the ruckus to begin with. What was that anyway???

HahahahahahahahIcan'tstanditanymore.

AtlLaw · « **Reply #24 on:** November 23, 2008, 05:18:38 AM »

Glad you're enjoying the discussion there NFG!

It's better to enjoy life then fight it! And you right... lust for wimmins and excess in al-key-haul has caused many a problem in this world!

I must be pretty near dead my self... seein' how my wife-mate keeps saying something about trying to raise the dead... $:-\$ but I tell ya what, in my younger days!... Well, nevermind...

And, like you say, with the money I save I have a lot more to spend on my hobbies!

Which reminds me, I still haven't ordered that 45/120 brass. Think I'll get a hundred pieces. $:-\$

Smokin Joe · « **Reply #25 on:** November 23, 2008, 05:50:15 AM »

Quote

That .040 rim thickness of the NE might give you a few problems.

Quote

Another reason not to get too high with the pressure...the NEF spring ejector won't cause much trouble I would suspect...it's too weak to rip off a piece of rim, but using a positive extractor might.

The problem I was referring to is that I don't think the .450 reamer will clean up the .45-70 rim cut and the .450 rim cut will be only .040, so you're going to end up with a really expensive shooter that has a weird .030 gap around the base/rim area. Just use the 120.........they stopped making T-Rex's a long time ago.

AtlLaw · « **Reply #26 on:** November 23, 2008, 06:43:53 AM »

Thanks Joe. One thing I never thought of was rim thickness. But that's why you through an idea out there for input from the more astute member!

interesting question though. How would one cut the rim recess deeper? $:-\$

Oh well. All this 450 NE is just conjecture anyway, there was never any doubt the rechambering would be to 45/120. But! it'll be something to remember when I START THE 50/140 PROJECT!

NFG · « **Reply #27 on:** November 23, 2008, 07:12:03 AM »

That might be true Smokinjoe...I just did a quick calculation and guessed the difference in bass base diameters would clean up sufficient for a slight step not to be a problem. If I guy really wants to do any kind of conversion there are lots of considerations to think about before actually doing it. Many conversions are nothing more than letting the mind expand and never actually reach the "doing" state...I think this one falls into that state.

You're right, tho' ...I haven't seen a T-Rex over the back fence in...oh...a few years anyway. I probably won't go beyond the 45-100 I just finished unless to take it out to 45-110 or throat for the long 750 gr bullets. Probably just throat because the 45-110 and 45-120 cases are 2 bucks plus apiece and I'm WAY too cheap to pay that...I squirm and crawfish at a buck apiece.

AtlLaw....100 pieces.....Jeeze...you gotta "manyshooter" somewhere hid out? I bought 30 pieces of 45-100 expecting to loose about 10 during the load development process and the rest to last me the rest of my life. You're talking 250 bucks...don't go talking that kind of bread around me...My heart won't stand the strain. I need 2 fingers of JD just to look at the price tags on the new shooters at my favorite shop. I buy or make several shooters almost every year, but I garontee I haven't bought a pricy new one in at least 10 years, and don't have any on my want list. I just ordered a NEF Ultra Slug and at 300 bucks I will shake for the next 6 months. My doctor told me to quit truck shopping and just let the bank do the paperwork...he wouldn't be responsible for any palpitations or other problems caused by "sticker shock" if I didn't follow his instructions....Hahahahahahahaha

I was married less than 20 years and got run off as soon as the kids left...I shouldn't have gotten married in the first place, but when your young, in love and studly what else can you do?

Finally figured out I'm more of a loner, I like my toys, I have a broad interest level, can only handle a limited amount of "normal" BS and most wimmin don't go for that. Most people need to be surrounded by other people...I dance to that different drum. I'm not anti-social, un-social, or a-social...I just prefer my own company and the company of a few good friends...men AND wimmin...and living way out in the boonies, than living "alone" surrounded by people.

It's great to be able to step out any door in the house or look through any window, almost any time of the day or year and shoot a deer or elk...with a camera or a shooter and not have Le Gendarmes crawling all over you, and hear the sound of silence. It's not paradise for sure....but it's as close as I'll ever get.

AtlLaw · « **Reply #28 on:** November 23, 2008, 09:22:11 AM »

Man I could spend an hour answering this post!

But my wife has me putting furniture together and she gets on me if I take to long a break...

So I'll just hit one high point for now!

Quote from: NFG on November 23, 2008, 07:12:03 AM

100 pieces.....Jeeze...you gotta "manyshooter" somewhere hid out? I bought 30 pieces of 45-100 expecting to loose about 10 during the load development process and the rest to last me the rest of my life. You're talking 250 bucks...

Think not o hermit one!

If you kept up with all the posts you would have seen the one where Tim let me know about the sale at Cabella's.

I'd give you the URL but... I don't wanna!

Speaking of posts, I really enjoyed your's on the 45/100 load development. VERY interesting. I had just about settled on the 45/100 myself but Tim convinced me otherwise with the shock and awe factor argument.

NFG · « **Reply #29 on:** November 23, 2008, 03:38:47 PM »

See how you are?

?

I'm really Jones'N for those heavy bullets to start arriving. This time of year I usually get snowed off my benchrest and can only set up the chrono after I blade off the drifts. I have at least a two to 4 week window yet...I'm hoping for more.

Not quite a hermit yet...I do have a few interesting "widderwimmin" that stop by now and then or I can get a home cooked meal or go for chinese once in a while when I'm in town and they don't have some previous engagement and I get an invite to a Barbie or a request to fill in as a "gentleman",

, on the odd occasion. Friends ONLY need apply...none of us want the other side cluttering up our lives...a couple like to hunt and I did/do some reloading or gun work for them, one works at the library and keeps my up to date with all the new books and articles in areas I'm intersted in...all are/were professionals in their fields either retired or getting ready to and are good company. None are prudes, all divorced...been there done that, the kids are grown and so am I...sort of thing...and I'm finally old enough to have "wimmin" friends without the rest of the BS. I can enjoy a woman for their minds as well as their bods....and I have a VIVID imagination....At least none have tried to hook me up as a mate for one of their friends or pimp me out with dates.

hahahahahahaha

No more small talk or smoke blow'n...we gotta get DOWN.

As soon as I get some boolits I will start posting my results. My NEF Ultra probably won't be available until the middle of a snow storm the way my luck goes some time.