Author Topic: Yankee Myth # 2 - Lincoln the Humanitarian  (Read 5975 times)

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Offline SouthernByGrace

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Re: Yankee Myth # 2 - Lincoln the Humanitarian
« Reply #90 on: December 09, 2008, 11:39:04 AM »
Gary, Liberty also gives us the right to turn away from those bent on perpetuation of the lies told about us for generations.
I asked William, as did several in this forum, to give sources, other than his own opinion, and gave him ample time to provide them. I didn't blindly put him on Ignore. I gave him a chance to prove himself, even after his insulting remarks about the "pity party." When he refused, he left me no choice. 
William says he went to college, so he's obviously intelligent enough to comprehend what we're saying here. I've read some of his posts in the Bible study forum, so I know he knows how to research a topic. Why he still refuses to provide any kind of source to show his point, eludes me. Then when he disputes the evidence we show, while refusing to show any himself, he has nothing to say that interests me. Period.
 
"Let us cross over the river and rest under the shade of the trees..."
Final words spoken by Gen. Thomas J. (Stonewall) Jackson, CSA

Offline Gary G

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Re: Yankee Myth # 2 - Lincoln the Humanitarian
« Reply #91 on: December 09, 2008, 01:41:51 PM »
I agree SBG. Your choice to do so and I don't fault you in the least. I do value your posts and consider them educational as they are backed up with documented evidence.

I value William's posts as they make me study to see if it is true.

Opinions are just that, everybody has one. Facts are hard to dispute.
The sole purpose of government is to protect your liberty. The Constitution is not to restrict the people, but to restrict government.  Ron Paul

The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first. - Thomas Jefferson

“Everyone wants to live at the expense of the State. They forget that the State lives at the expense of everyone.” — Frederic Bastiat

Offline Ga.windbreak

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Re: Yankee Myth # 2 - Lincoln the Humanitarian
« Reply #92 on: December 09, 2008, 09:38:04 PM »
Gary G, I too value your post, and am more than happy to debate any and all subjects in this thread as I learn as much or more than what I may show as fact. I don't hate William or have any feelings for him one way or the other. When a poster says that you personally are simple minded and can't find your way around a high school class room and when that same person then, a day or two later, says you are having a pity party when in fact all you are doing is retelling some of your life experiences, that I'm quite proud of by the way as I said in my story, enough becomes enough. I no longer have any interest in what he has to say one way or the other.

A line from a movie comes to mind that explains just how I feel about wl: "Don't go away mad, just go away!"
"Men do not differ about what
Things they will call evils;
They differ enormously about what evils
They will call excusable." - G.K. Chesterton

"It starts when you begin to overlook bad manners. Anytime you quit hearing "sir" and "ma'am", the end is pretty much in sight."-Tommy Lee Jones in No Country for Old Men

Private John Walker Roberts CSA 19th Battalion Georgia Cavalry - Loyalty is a most precious trait - RIP

Offline williamlayton

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Re: Yankee Myth # 2 - Lincoln the Humanitarian
« Reply #93 on: December 10, 2008, 12:18:38 AM »
Documentation? Hummm.
If I tell you that I have studied this and written a paper or two on this is that not A proof.
If I say that I have come too different conclusions and have given fact that would show what I believe is this not as much truth as a quote from a book revieve of another on the net. None here have read that book but if they do and want too agree with it that is OK.
I don't and it is from a studied and researched place in time that brought about these conclusions.
If my words are a lie---not just a point of disagreement--then show me the lie. Now don't throw out someone else's opinion that they disagree--show me where it is that I have told an untruth.
The Morrill Act?
Agreening that there was racism on both sides of the coin?
Saying that there is much complexity too these questions which over ride any personal racism?
Some here want too say that the war was economically driven. I agree. For the North it was maunfacturing. For the South it was slavery.
The welfare of the Union was the driving force behind Lincoln's motivations and he did not give a hang about how that happened.
Yes the South was given choices. The South made a choice. they forrced a conflict by challange. They lost. That is the history.
In these discussions ist seems that many want too prove the Union wrong and that life would be a virtual heaven if the South was JUST LEFT ALONE (not yelling, just highlighting the point).  That is the pity party and relying on like minded too reinforce this.
I am a party of one that disagrees and shares thoughts that see it another way---well from other sources it seems that thru the years I am more than a party of one and, they are not Yankees but other southern boys like myownself.
Seems like we are having a conversation if I am being ignored.
Truely, Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline Gary G

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Re: Yankee Myth # 2 - Lincoln the Humanitarian
« Reply #94 on: December 10, 2008, 05:02:52 AM »
Lincoln's accomplishments:
1. Saying contradictory things before different audiences.

2. Opposing racial equality.

3. Opposing giving blacks the right to vote, serve on juries or intermarry while allegedly supporting their natural rights.

4. Being a racist.

5. Supporting the legal rights of slaveholders.

6. Supporting Clay?s American System or mercantilism as his primary political agenda: national bank, high tariff, and internal improvements.

7. Supporting a political economy that encourages corruption and inefficiency.

8. Supporting a political economy that became the blueprint for modern American.

9. Being a wealthy railroad lawyer.

10. Never defending a runaway slave.

11. Defending a slaveholder against his runaway slave.

12. Favoring returning ex-slaves to Africa or sending them to Central America and Haiti.?

13. Proposing to strengthen the Fugitive Slave law.

14. Opposing the extension of slavery in the territories so that "free white people" can settle there and because allowing them to become slave states would dilute Republican influence in Congress because of the three-fifths rule.

15. Opposing black citizenship in Illinois or their right to immigrate to that state.

16. Failing to use his legendary political skills to achieve peaceful emancipation as was accomplished elsewhere--Lincoln's war was the only "war of emancipation" in the 19th century.

17. Nullifying emancipation of slaves in Missouri and Georgia early in the war.

18. Stating that his primary motive was saving the union and not ending slavery.

19. Supporting a conscription law.

20. Sending troops into New York City to quell draft riots related to his emancipation proclamation, resulting in 300 to 1,000 deaths.

21. Starting a war that took the lives of 620,000 soldiers and 50,000 civilians and caused incalculable economic loss.

22. Being an enemy of free market capitalism.

23. Being an economic illiterate and espousing the labor theory of value.

24. Supporting a disastrous public works project in Illinois and continuing to support the same policies oblivious of the consequences.

25. Conjuring up a specious and deceptive argument against the historically-recognized right of state secession.

26. Lying about re-supplying the fed?s tax collection office known as Fort Sumter.

27. Refusing to see peace commissioners from the Confederacy offering to pay for all federal property in the South.

28. Refusing to see Napoleon III of France who offered to mediate the dispute.

29. Provoking Virginia to secede by taking military action against the Deep South.

30. Supporting a tariff and other policies that systematically redistributed wealth from the South to the North, causing great consternation in the South.

31. Invading the South without consulting Congress.

32. Illegally declaring martial law.

33. Illegally blockading ports.

34. Illegally suspending habeas corpus.

35. Illegally imprisoning thousands of Northern citizens.

36. Tolerating their subjection to inhumane conditions in prison.

37. Systematically attacking Northern newspapers and their employees, including by imprisonment.

38. Deporting his chief political enemy in the North, Congressman Clement L. Vallandigham of Ohio.

39. Confiscating private property and firearms.

40. Ignoring the Ninth and Tenth Amendments.

41. Tolerating the arrest of ministers who refused to pray for Lincoln.

42. Arresting several duly elected members of the Maryland Legislature along with the mayor of Baltimore and Maryland Congressman Henry May.

43. Placing Kansas and Kentucky under martial law.

44. Supporting a law that indemnified public officials for unlawful acts.

45. Laying the groundwork for the establishment of conscription and income taxation as permanent institutions.

46. Interfering with and rigging elections in Maryland and elsewhere in the North.

47. Censoring all telegraph communication.

48. Preventing opposition newspapers from being delivered by the post office.

49. Illegally creating the state of West Virginia out of the "indestructible" state of Virginia.

50. Tolerating or supporting mistreatment of citizens in conquered territory.

51. Taxing those citizens without their consent.

52. Executing those who refused to take a loyalty oath.

53.Closing churches and arresting ministers.

54. Burning and plundering Southern cites.

55. Quartering troops in private homes unlawfully.

56. reating an enormous political patronage system.

57. Allowing an unjust mass execution of Sioux Indians in Minnesota.

58. Engineering a constitutional revolution through military force which destroyed state sovereignty and replaced it with rule by the Supreme Court (and the United States Army).

59. Laying the groundwork for the imperialist and militarist campaigns of the future as well as the welfare/warfare state.

60. Creating the dangerous precedent of establishing a strong consolidated state out of a decentralized confederation.

61. Effectively killing secession as a threat, thus encouraging the rise of our modern federal monolith.

62. Waging war on civilians by bombing, destruction of homes, and confiscation of food and farm equipment.

63. Tolerating an atmosphere which led to large numbers of rapes against Southern women, including slaves.

64. Using civilians as hostages.

65. Promoting a general because of his willingness to use his troops as cannon fodder.

66. The predictable aftermath of the war: the plundering of the South by Lincoln?s allies.

67. Supporting government subsidies of the railroads leading to corruption and inefficiency.

68. Supporting a nationalized paper currency which is inherently inflationary.

69. Creating the federal tax bureaucracy and various taxes that are still with us.

70. Establishing precedents for centralized powers and suppression of liberties that continue to be cited today.

71. Ending slavery by means that created turbulence that continues to this day.

Documented in The Real Lincoln: A New Look at Abraham Lincoln, His Agenda, and an Unnecessary War , Dr. Tom DiLorenzo
The sole purpose of government is to protect your liberty. The Constitution is not to restrict the people, but to restrict government.  Ron Paul

The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first. - Thomas Jefferson

“Everyone wants to live at the expense of the State. They forget that the State lives at the expense of everyone.” — Frederic Bastiat

Offline SouthernByGrace

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Re: Yankee Myth # 2 - Lincoln the Humanitarian
« Reply #95 on: December 10, 2008, 06:11:52 AM »
That's our Lincoln in a nutshell...
But this man is the "father of freedom" and the "savior of the Union" and the torch of human equality, ad nauseum.
Even after 70+ Documented items credited to his "legacy," there are STILL those who don't believe that he accomplished so very much in the name of "saving the Union." [Sarcasm purposely added]  ;)

Good points there, Gary; ALL of them...

Wonderful book by the way... I've read it three times.
"Let us cross over the river and rest under the shade of the trees..."
Final words spoken by Gen. Thomas J. (Stonewall) Jackson, CSA

Offline williamlayton

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Re: Yankee Myth # 2 - Lincoln the Humanitarian
« Reply #96 on: December 10, 2008, 04:44:29 PM »
There is much truth in these descriptions, there are also some half truths and some extenuating circumstances in many.
Lincoln could not do this without some amount of backing in the House and senate.
You might want too say that he was just about average for the times.
This question of Slavery was permiated in white America's thoughts.
It was during a period when there were many who faced it for what it was and what it ment too a new emerging nation which espoused a new theme of Democracy, freedom and equality.
We were in denial that we could grant freedom and the vote and deny the same for any.
You just keep proving all that I say the more you deny it.
Who here does not admit contradiction and conflict within ourownselves in all of the things touched on. We are all in conflict---seems Paul said that about hisownself.
It is not about personal freedom that we do what is necessary, irregardless of any conflicts we have. It is about doing what is right.
I am more than suprised that the fact that he was downright ugly has not been thrown in.
Blessings

TEXAS, by GOD

Offline littlecanoe

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Re: Yankee Myth # 2 - Lincoln the Humanitarian
« Reply #97 on: December 10, 2008, 11:23:29 PM »
Ugly hasn't been thrown in because it isn't a character trait; it doesn't indicate what is in the heart.  His words.  That's enough for me.  What he did reflected by what he said.  Can't you see the whitewash?


Quote
We were in denial that we could grant freedom and the vote and deny the same for any.

I believe that Jefferson Davis had the right idea in preparing those in his care for freedom through education.  This would indicate to me that he had seen the future and was acting wisely in preparing those slaves under him for what he saw as an inevitable freedom.  Lincoln didn't give the slaves credit to be able to accomplish those things that Mr. Davis was actually enacting on his plantation.  Come down to modern day America and consider such men as Walter Williams, Dr. Thomas Sowell and a host of others.  Lincoln was once again wrong and Davis right.   What ended up happening was the throwing into society of a large number of people who were not prepared for freedom.  That's not humanitarian.

I can't agree with the above statement because the vote was held in much higher esteem in those days.  It was considered a sacred right.  It was honored and protected.  At that time in our history we still realized that people who had a vested interest were best suited to vote. 

Offline Ga.windbreak

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Re: Yankee Myth # 2 - Lincoln the Humanitarian
« Reply #98 on: December 11, 2008, 12:13:03 AM »
Great points Gary G. I would also like to point out that he oversaw and approved of Grant's (& Sherman's) total war consept that allowed his troops to kill some 50,000 known women and children, both black and white with impunity. Allowing his own POW troops to die for lack of proper medical care and food as well as not taking proper care of the CSA troops in his care. Its very telling to me that with all the North had that with less CSA POW troops than the South had in Northern POWs less Northern POWs died than Southern POWs. I wonder just why that was?

Well damn, the answer is in front of me, Lincoln was a Humanitarian. Yeah, RIGHT! ::)
"Men do not differ about what
Things they will call evils;
They differ enormously about what evils
They will call excusable." - G.K. Chesterton

"It starts when you begin to overlook bad manners. Anytime you quit hearing "sir" and "ma'am", the end is pretty much in sight."-Tommy Lee Jones in No Country for Old Men

Private John Walker Roberts CSA 19th Battalion Georgia Cavalry - Loyalty is a most precious trait - RIP

Offline williamlayton

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Re: Yankee Myth # 2 - Lincoln the Humanitarian
« Reply #99 on: December 11, 2008, 04:25:13 AM »
The war precluded an orderly transition.
Since you brought it up, segregation brought about an unequal education and thru this many still accomplished great things against great odds.
Are you implying that segregation was the answer?
There are just as many brought up under segregation that ended up as white being the only claim too fame.
The argument falls if the face of truth.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline Ga.windbreak

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Re: Yankee Myth # 2 - Lincoln the Humanitarian
« Reply #100 on: December 16, 2008, 05:22:48 AM »
Since you brought it up, segregation brought about an unequal education and thru this many still accomplished great things against great odds.
Are you implying that segregation was the answer?
There are just as many brought up under segregation that ended up as white being the only claim too fame.
Blessings

wl, who brought up segregation? Where is this word used in this thread before this very post for the first time?
"Men do not differ about what
Things they will call evils;
They differ enormously about what evils
They will call excusable." - G.K. Chesterton

"It starts when you begin to overlook bad manners. Anytime you quit hearing "sir" and "ma'am", the end is pretty much in sight."-Tommy Lee Jones in No Country for Old Men

Private John Walker Roberts CSA 19th Battalion Georgia Cavalry - Loyalty is a most precious trait - RIP

Offline Ga.windbreak

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Re: Yankee Myth # 2 - Lincoln the Humanitarian
« Reply #101 on: December 16, 2008, 05:26:41 AM »
Quote from: williamlayton
If I tell you that I have studied this and written a paper or two on this is that not A proof.

Only if you believe I have some land to sell you. Its on the Moon and I have it because I say so. ;)
"Men do not differ about what
Things they will call evils;
They differ enormously about what evils
They will call excusable." - G.K. Chesterton

"It starts when you begin to overlook bad manners. Anytime you quit hearing "sir" and "ma'am", the end is pretty much in sight."-Tommy Lee Jones in No Country for Old Men

Private John Walker Roberts CSA 19th Battalion Georgia Cavalry - Loyalty is a most precious trait - RIP

Offline williamlayton

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Re: Yankee Myth # 2 - Lincoln the Humanitarian
« Reply #102 on: December 17, 2008, 07:06:55 AM »
You fail too think thru your thoughts and where they lead you.
Root hog, or die. That can mean a lot of things, unless you explain yourself.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline williamlayton

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Re: Yankee Myth # 2 - Lincoln the Humanitarian
« Reply #103 on: December 17, 2008, 07:16:12 AM »
GW
I challeged the traditional Southern myths I was taught. I studied the situation and came too the conclusions that they could not stand in face of facts.
It is not an unusual occurance, people in Germany still play the "what if" game and deny.
In this situation, I will grant that some do not agree. I do disagree with your conclusions. What's the big deal about that?
Study both sides, do it thouroughly and well, then we can, perhaps, understand the complexity of this period and discuss it rationally.
I know you believe you are right. That is not a big deal.
What I am saying, is that there is more than one way too see it.
Blessings 
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline Ga.windbreak

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Re: Yankee Myth # 2 - Lincoln the Humanitarian
« Reply #104 on: December 17, 2008, 02:08:43 PM »
GW
I challeged the traditional Southern myths I was taught. I studied the situation and came too the conclusions that they could not stand in face of facts.
It is not an unusual occurance, people in Germany still play the "what if" game and deny.
In this situation, I will grant that some do not agree. I do disagree with your conclusions. What's the big deal about that?
Study both sides, do it thouroughly and well, then we can, perhaps, understand the complexity of this period and discuss it rationally.
I know you believe you are right. That is not a big deal.
What I am saying, is that there is more than one way too see it.
Blessings 

You have every right to your opinions just as I do mine. If I'm to take your words at face value you are misjudging me. I've never stated that I want to go back to 1860 and change history. I am not playing a "what if" game. My sole concern is that history reflect the truth of what happened so that we may bury this division among us. If there is any desire for change in me it is that the wrongs done to our Constitution be reversed and that can not be accomplished by anyother legal means than thru our court system or amendment to the Constitution. Why are you or anyone else afraid of that?

I was taught and studied your side for about 40 years, you feel you are right and I am wrong, that's ok, as long as you are willing to PROVE your side to me. You just saying you are right proves nothing, save maybe to yourself. Show me where I'm wrong with facts, not your opinion, and just maybe you can change my mind. But then show me the same courtesy, don't try to make it personal by calling me simple minded just because you don't have the facts to disprove what I say is fact.
"Men do not differ about what
Things they will call evils;
They differ enormously about what evils
They will call excusable." - G.K. Chesterton

"It starts when you begin to overlook bad manners. Anytime you quit hearing "sir" and "ma'am", the end is pretty much in sight."-Tommy Lee Jones in No Country for Old Men

Private John Walker Roberts CSA 19th Battalion Georgia Cavalry - Loyalty is a most precious trait - RIP

Offline SouthernByGrace

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Re: Yankee Myth # 2 - Lincoln the Humanitarian
« Reply #105 on: December 17, 2008, 06:08:47 PM »
Quote from: williamlayton
If I tell you that I have studied this and written a paper or two on this is that not A proof.

NO, williamlayton, that IS NOT a proof. You say you studied it? Where? What did you read to arrive at your beliefs?  That's all we are asking. Who taught you to think like that? It's not normal!

HOW DARE YOU QUESTION A MAN'S SOURCES WHEN YOU REFUSE TO GIVE YOUR OWN !!!
(Shouting Out Loud) >:(
First of all, it's rude. Second, that's not sane behavior.

"Because That's What I Believe" is NOT a source. I don't care how many papers you wrote on the subject. Without reference material to back up what you say, it's only fantasy and rhetoric.

WL, if I were your professor and you wrote that paper for me and you refused to give any form of reference to support your views, the same way you do here on GBO, you'd be staring at the Biggest, Fattest "F" you ever saw, and you KNOW it.

I don't believe for one minute you ever got a passing grade on a history paper where your only source of reference was "because that's what I believe." Who do you think you are BS-ing?

It is insane for you to think everybody in this forum is wrong but you. Especially when everybody in this forum gives reference material to support their views, EXCEPT YOU !

I still contend that you either don't know how to find the sources to prove your points, or you made them up in your head, or could it be because they just don't exist? You are yet to prove otherwise. You are yet to disprove a single point made in this forum. Worse still, you are yet to prove a single point of your OWN! ???

WL, it's time for you to grow up and stop acting like this....
"Let us cross over the river and rest under the shade of the trees..."
Final words spoken by Gen. Thomas J. (Stonewall) Jackson, CSA

Offline Dee

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Re: Yankee Myth # 2 - Lincoln the Humanitarian
« Reply #106 on: December 18, 2008, 08:35:34 AM »
GaW, and SBG. The blood on the horse has dried, and it died long ago. To continue to beat it is fruitless. But then again, it is still a partially free country. ;)
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline SouthernByGrace

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Re: Yankee Myth # 2 - Lincoln the Humanitarian
« Reply #107 on: December 18, 2008, 09:24:35 AM »
Good advice and it is accepted in the spirit in which it was intended.
But you have to admit, sometimes it's hard to let the bait just lay there... ;) ;) LOL
"Let us cross over the river and rest under the shade of the trees..."
Final words spoken by Gen. Thomas J. (Stonewall) Jackson, CSA

Offline Ga.windbreak

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Re: Yankee Myth # 2 - Lincoln the Humanitarian
« Reply #108 on: December 18, 2008, 01:10:52 PM »
GaW, and SBG. The blood on the horse has dried, and it died long ago. To continue to beat it is fruitless. But then again, it is still a partially free country. ;)

I agree which is why I started posting to his post yesterday. I wanted to make sure that I could be objective if I was to be a Mod. My hope is that we can make this the very BEST War of Northern Aggression Forum on the net.

Lets ride boys, daylights burning! ;D
"Men do not differ about what
Things they will call evils;
They differ enormously about what evils
They will call excusable." - G.K. Chesterton

"It starts when you begin to overlook bad manners. Anytime you quit hearing "sir" and "ma'am", the end is pretty much in sight."-Tommy Lee Jones in No Country for Old Men

Private John Walker Roberts CSA 19th Battalion Georgia Cavalry - Loyalty is a most precious trait - RIP