Author Topic: Here Is my opinion on our current economic crisis and how we got here.  (Read 2069 times)

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Offline DalesCarpentry

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Here Is my opinion on our current economic crisis and how we got here. I think the government forced the banks to make home loans that people could not afford. There were more people that were border line than could really afford their $1,000.00 a month house payment. These people that were border line me included Could not afford their payments because they were spending more on gas getting to and from work than they were on their mortgages. The cost of fuel is the culprit for many of the problems our country now faces. When fuel went up so did everything else. Dale
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Offline 45-70.gov

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Re: Here Is my opinion on our current economic crisis and how we got here.
« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2008, 06:04:30 PM »
if   you put down  a good   down payment
then  didn't  make  the payments  after  a while  and  the bank forclosed
you  would get  some  money  when  all  is said  and  done   and  the bank  got their money

but  the  government made  then  do  100% financing  for  beggars  and  investors
when  they default  every body  looses  and  the  banks  money  is  tied  up  till  they sell  it at a loss

so  now  they quit  lending  so readily
now  houses  are harder  to  sell  cause few  have $20k down payment  [demand]
so  people drop  the price  to sell
while  banks are flooding  the  market  with repos  [supply]
supply  and demand in  action
along  with  the gas  stuff  and  the  OBAMANATION  fear of capital gains tax increase
there  are  other  things  coming together  also
when drugs are outlawed only out laws will have drugs
DO WHAT EVER IT TAKES TO STOP A DEMOCRAT
OBAMACARE....the biggest tax hike in the  history of mankind
free choice and equality  can't co-exist
AFTER THE LIBYAN COVER-UP... remind any  democrat voters ''they sat and  watched them die''...they  told help to ''stand down''

many statements made here are fiction and are for entertainment purposes only and are in no way to be construed as a description of actual events.
no one is encouraged to do anything dangerous or break any laws.

Offline jvs

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Re: Here Is my opinion on our current economic crisis and how we got here.
« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2008, 12:19:19 AM »
Here Is my opinion on our current economic crisis and how we got here. I think the government forced the banks to make home loans that people could not afford. There were more people that were border line than could really afford their $1,000.00 a month house payment. These people that were border line me included Could not afford their payments because they were spending more on gas getting to and from work than they were on their mortgages. The cost of fuel is the culprit for many of the problems our country now faces. When fuel went up so did everything else. Dale

Alot of the problem is the Federal Gov't led by Democrats Franks and Dodd made it a Federal offense for Banks to refuse Mortgages to people who could not afford them.  Add in a dip-sh*t like Greenspan-the-Bubble-Blower and the snowball went rolling down hill.

When you have a Mortgage Application process that only relies on people proving they have I.D., and prohibiting a full credit background check, then having Market Conditions that feeds on the greed of certain 'investors' that pump up the the housing market between 15 and 20 % per year, a Federal Reserve that consistently created and deflated sector bubbles, you have a recipe for disaster.

You can't have people buying $400,000 houses with incomes of $40,000 and expect it to work out.   

I guess basically the current economic conditions are based on DESIGN, STUPIDITY, GREED and IGNORANCE. 

In the end, the United States is destined to become a second rate Economic power from conspiratorial policies from within and ignorance from without. 
 If you want to run with the Wolves, you can't Pee with the Puppies.

Online magooch

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Re: Here Is my opinion on our current economic crisis and how we got here.
« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2008, 03:53:23 AM »
I think there are multiple reasons for the present difficulties.  Certainly those that have been stated, but I think that the news media and stupid politicians--one in particular that has been repeating over and over what a bad economy we've got has exacerbated the whole thing.  Around these parts, if one never listened to the news, you'd never know there is a slow down.  There's just as many cars and trucks on the highways and the store parking lots are just as full as ever. 

I've been watching the housing market and I sure haven't seen any reduction in price.  To me, houses are still way over priced.  The county just reappraised our house and I guess I'm one of those rich that they are itching to tax the hell out of.
Swingem

Offline 45-70.gov

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Re: Here Is my opinion on our current economic crisis and how we got here.
« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2008, 05:36:34 AM »
but  are  you better  of  now  than  you  were 8 years  ago

you perception  is  no  if  you are  a looser 
i  am sure some are  really  worse  off 
but  most  just perceive  they  are worse  off
i  lost [on paper] about $1 hundred thousand last  year
so  what  is my  perception?
i  did  REAL  well  in  the previous 7

when  i  evict  a family  they geneally  have  vices
it  is  not BUSHES  fault  they chose  the smoke or drink last  year
i  have  never  evicted some one with a college degree
most  evictees didn't finish high school
none  have a savings account
most  all  their friends  and family  fit  the above  description  and consider  this normal

then  come  the government
telling  the banks to loan money  to  the  homeless  i but on the street
the banks  are  happy  these  loans  are  insured
sorta  like  an  insurance company selling  you  a car  with  insurance  and a leaky gas  line

that  is the root  of  the problem
when drugs are outlawed only out laws will have drugs
DO WHAT EVER IT TAKES TO STOP A DEMOCRAT
OBAMACARE....the biggest tax hike in the  history of mankind
free choice and equality  can't co-exist
AFTER THE LIBYAN COVER-UP... remind any  democrat voters ''they sat and  watched them die''...they  told help to ''stand down''

many statements made here are fiction and are for entertainment purposes only and are in no way to be construed as a description of actual events.
no one is encouraged to do anything dangerous or break any laws.

Offline Hairtrigger

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Re: Here Is my opinion on our current economic crisis and how we got here.
« Reply #5 on: November 23, 2008, 05:43:58 AM »
  I think the government forced the banks to make home loans that people could not afford. 

 I think people were stupid enough to borrow money they could not afford to pay back. Banks were greedy and gave them money even though they were not a good risk. Why do they think they can afford to buy a house when you have no down payment? I have heard bankers talk about growing into a loan, that would assume your pay goes up faster than the cost of living. In my area 5 - 10 years ago we saw many new houses $250,000+ and a new boat in the driveway beside the new SUV. The people living in the house both worked in local factories so the income was pretty average..... guess what... for sale signs in front of those houses today.

Offline jimster

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Re: Here Is my opinion on our current economic crisis and how we got here.
« Reply #6 on: November 23, 2008, 07:10:57 AM »
I think more than one thing happened,  in some cases government did pressure banks to make loans on houses with no down payments,  and in other cases banks seemed eager to do this.  When I was young I would have got laughed out of any bank trying to buy a house without at least 10 percent down,  and I would have been foolish to try to buy one if they would have let me do that.  I've said it before,  being an American does not mean you have a right to borrow lots of money and buy a house, it's not a right.  You only have the right to be free here and work your butt off and save and wait for what you can afford.  Just because a young couple just got married and just got a job still does not mean they can have a house they can't really afford.  I was in my thirties when I bought my first house,  not 19 and just starting out.  So maybe we can add one more cause to all this besides the government thinking everybody deserves a house....let's add some of it was the fault of the people themselves for not using their heads.  You sit down with a bank and buy a house with no down payment,  your going to pay through the nose for interest, insurance,  they will add your property tax on it (cause they already know you probably will FAIL)....and you'll be paying for things you could never afford in the first place.  Add to that signing an interst rate that is not fixed, your going down for sure if you were on the edge already.  Then, hey....let's borrow money for a car too...!   Next thing that happens is house maint....gosh it's expensive to replace a roof and a furnace huh?  Charge it I guess.  Lot's of people acting just like our government does, spend it before you have it and keep right on spending.  Well, that explains why our government does it I guess...they are nothing but a reflection of the people who put them there.

I know there are people out there who did live within their means and lost their houses because they lost their jobs....I feel for them,  but for every one of them there are ten more people who spent more than they were bring in,  and and ran up credit debt to boot...and never once stopped eating out and charging it!  We all know there are lots of people like this out there.  I would recommend to any young people starting out,  go slow, scrimp and save, and spend your time staying home and enjoying each other,  in the end you'll have a lot more down the road, and you'll be a stronger family in the end too.

 

Jim

Offline DalesCarpentry

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Re: Here Is my opinion on our current economic crisis and how we got here.
« Reply #7 on: November 23, 2008, 07:38:40 AM »
When we bought our house 7 years ago we needed 10% down to qualify. We also managed to get 3% seller assistance so we really only had to come up with 7% down. We also have a fixed interest rate. Shame on those people that did not go with a fixed rate. Our house payment is $700.00 a month. That includes local taxes and insurance. All in all I think it is a good deal for the simple fact we could not hardly rent a place this cheap with an acre of land. Not to mention it is a great little town to raise our daughter. There is almost no crime here. I have not taken the keys out of my truck or van since I have lived here. I even left the garage door open a couple times by accident over night with thousands of dollars of tools in there and not a thing was stolen. I lived in some towns in the past that I would have been cleaned out with out a doubt. Dale
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Offline jvs

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Re: Here Is my opinion on our current economic crisis and how we got here.
« Reply #8 on: November 23, 2008, 07:46:17 AM »
It was against Federal Law for a Bank to refuse a Mortgage Loan to anyone with at least a proper Identification Card.

The unqualified applicant could NOT be refused for reason like Improper Credit Background of the lack of a Down Payment or the Bank could be Prosecuted for being in violation of the Law.   NO Bank was ready to break the law and it is unreasonable to blame them now for making the Loans that the Law said they must make.

Add in Adjustable Rate Mortgages and a multitude of 'Real Estate Investors' who were buying houses in the hope that those properties would keep rising in value, until the bottom started falling out due to rising oil prices and interest rates, and a falling dollar.

Fianlly, don't think the Democrats aren't happier than a Pig in Crap with the way things turned out, they have G. Bush on the ropes and BHO as President elect.   Now all the Democrats have to do is make sure this country doesn't slip into a Economic Depression.
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Offline Matt

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Re: Here Is my opinion on our current economic crisis and how we got here.
« Reply #9 on: November 23, 2008, 11:05:41 AM »
It was against Federal Law for a Bank to refuse a Mortgage Loan to anyone with at least a proper Identification Card.

What the hell have you been smoking?.... whatever it is it must be good crap so why dont you puff puff pass....

Matt
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Offline Swampman

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Re: Here Is my opinion on our current economic crisis and how we got here.
« Reply #10 on: November 23, 2008, 12:09:30 PM »
I think the government (congress)forced the banks to make home loans to people with bad or no credit & no down payment because they were minorities.

The country is already in a depression.
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Offline jvs

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Re: Here Is my opinion on our current economic crisis and how we got here.
« Reply #11 on: November 23, 2008, 01:25:03 PM »
It was against Federal Law for a Bank to refuse a Mortgage Loan to anyone with at least a proper Identification Card.

What the hell have you been smoking?.... whatever it is it must be good crap so why dont you puff puff pass....

Matt

You need to get out more.  You are stuck in the stone age if you hadn't heard of the reasons before now.  Unqualified customers were buying houses they couldn't afford with dubious credit historys because Congressman Franks and Senator Dodd made it so.  Banks were not allowed to deny mortgages to such customers because of Federal Law.  I know it's hard for some Democrats to admit, but it's true.  It actually has nothing to do with being a Minority.

If you're looking for something to smoke, you won't be getting any of it from me.   If you're having a problem with seeing STUPIDITY, take your complaints to Washington D.C..

 If you want to run with the Wolves, you can't Pee with the Puppies.

Offline Matt

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Re: Here Is my opinion on our current economic crisis and how we got here.
« Reply #12 on: November 23, 2008, 01:43:02 PM »
It was against Federal Law for a Bank to refuse a Mortgage Loan to anyone with at least a proper Identification Card.

What the hell have you been smoking?.... whatever it is it must be good crap so why dont you puff puff pass....

Matt

You need to get out more.  You are stuck in the stone age if you hadn't heard of the reasons before now.  Unqualified customers were buying houses they couldn't afford with dubious credit historys because Congressman Franks and Senator Dodd made it so.  Banks were not allowed to deny mortgages to such customers because of Federal Law.  I know it's hard for some Democrats to admit, but it's true.  It actually has nothing to do with being a Minority.

If you're looking for something to smoke, you won't be getting any of it from me.   If you're having a problem with seeing STUPIDITY, take your complaints to Washington D.C..


No I want you to put your money where your big mouth is... Where is the law.... give me a bill number.... dont run your mouth about a law and then not produce it. oh and by the way I know stupidity when I see it...
Any fool can know. The point is to understand.”
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Offline crustaceous

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Re: Here Is my opinion on our current economic crisis and how we got here.
« Reply #13 on: November 23, 2008, 03:23:33 PM »
We're all responsible and many of the causes go back to the depression.
Here is the best article I've read on the subject. It's a long read but very informative.
http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2008/12/banks200812

Offline jvs

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Re: Here Is my opinion on our current economic crisis and how we got here.
« Reply #14 on: November 23, 2008, 09:44:05 PM »
It was against Federal Law for a Bank to refuse a Mortgage Loan to anyone with at least a proper Identification Card.

What the hell have you been smoking?.... whatever it is it must be good crap so why dont you puff puff pass....

Matt

You need to get out more.  You are stuck in the stone age if you hadn't heard of the reasons before now.  Unqualified customers were buying houses they couldn't afford with dubious credit historys because Congressman Franks and Senator Dodd made it so.  Banks were not allowed to deny mortgages to such customers because of Federal Law.  I know it's hard for some Democrats to admit, but it's true.  It actually has nothing to do with being a Minority.

If you're looking for something to smoke, you won't be getting any of it from me.   If you're having a problem with seeing STUPIDITY, take your complaints to Washington D.C..


No I want you to put your money where your big mouth is... Where is the law.... give me a bill number.... dont run your mouth about a law and then not produce it. oh and by the way I know stupidity when I see it...

All you had to do was keep up with Banking Deregulation and the Privitization of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac (with the Gov't Guarantee) and the easing of Credit History Regulations sponsored by Franks and Dodd Congressional and Senate Committee's to know who is behind this financial mess. 

I sugesst you you bone up on your own and watch Financial News Networks instead of the Commie News Network...aka CNN.  And get ready to watch some pretty famous people doing the 'Perp Walk'.

I still don't think you know 'stupid' when you see it.  Maybe Dad should be taking you out behind the shed.
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Offline Heather

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Re: Here Is my opinion on our current economic crisis and how we got here.
« Reply #15 on: November 23, 2008, 10:00:05 PM »
It was against Federal Law for a Bank to refuse a Mortgage Loan to anyone with at least a proper Identification Card.

What the hell have you been smoking?.... whatever it is it must be good crap so why dont you puff puff pass....

Matt

You need to get out more.  You are stuck in the stone age if you hadn't heard of the reasons before now.  Unqualified customers were buying houses they couldn't afford with dubious credit historys because Congressman Franks and Senator Dodd made it so.  Banks were not allowed to deny mortgages to such customers because of Federal Law.  I know it's hard for some Democrats to admit, but it's true.  It actually has nothing to do with being a Minority.

If you're looking for something to smoke, you won't be getting any of it from me.   If you're having a problem with seeing STUPIDITY, take your complaints to Washington D.C..


No I want you to put your money where your big mouth is... Where is the law.... give me a bill number.... dont run your mouth about a law and then not produce it. oh and by the way I know stupidity when I see it...

All you had to do was keep up with Banking Deregulation and the Privitization of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac (with the Gov't Guarantee) and the easing of Credit History Regulations sponsored by Franks and Dodd Congressional and Senate Committee's to know who is behind this financial mess. 

I sugesst you you bone up on your own and watch Financial News Networks instead of the Commie News Network...aka CNN.  And get ready to watch some pretty famous people doing the 'Perp Walk'.

I still don't think you know 'stupid' when you see it.  Maybe Dad should be taking you out behind the shed.

Well a smarter person would just provide a link to the law that they are so adamant exist rather than arguing and degrading the person who doubts you.  I think that we all agree that Government intervention is a HUGE part of what got us into this mess, but I seriously think you are talking out of your ass if you think that it is against the law for banks to turn down people for loans.  The Government inticed banks to make loans, but they didn't force them, just like no one forced people to take out loans they couldn't afford.

Heather
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Offline LaOtto222

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Re: Here Is my opinion on our current economic crisis and how we got here.
« Reply #16 on: November 24, 2008, 01:12:31 AM »
I think the government encouraged banks to loan money for houses. This was done toward the end of Bill Clinton's administration. They Democrats, with little Republican opposition, felt everyone deserved a house. No one wanted to fight the thought of everyone deserving a house, it would make them out as being cold and uncaring. The government said they would back up the poor loans with guarantees that they would get compensated for the "bad" loans through Fanny Mae and Freddy Mac. No one knew at the time how many bad loans there would be. Some banks did not follow the suggested guidelines and were in pretty good shape when the bubble burst. No matter, the investors had lost confidence in banks in general and sold off stock, in effect making the marginal banks look as bad as the bad banks. There were just too many bad loans out there and it was a domino effect taking down banks that were solvent, but just barely along with the poorly managed ones. Only the solid banks were getting through with out a bail out. There were some banks that were and are solvent because of their more conservative loan practices. The housing market started this chain reaction that soon engulfed commodity prices, gas prices, the auto industry and soon to be others. We have a lot of foreign investment and it started to effect the world economy too. It is a lot more complicated than that. The auto industry is sort of like the banks, the poorly managed ones are struggling to keep their heads above water while the better managed ones are surviving.
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Offline jimster

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Re: Here Is my opinion on our current economic crisis and how we got here.
« Reply #17 on: November 24, 2008, 01:57:02 AM »
I am unaware of any "laws" that said banks have to make the loans,  there was a little arm twisting, but the fact is that SOME banks did NOT make loans to people who did not qualify, and those banks are sitting OK.  Fannie and Freddie are government problems created by government,  watched by government,  and now funded by government.  Frank and pals defended them,  and anyone who tried to stop the loans were labeled as racists by Frank and pals.  There were also a handful of Republicans who went along with this stuff.

Some intellectual deficits going on in Congress....as well as other deficits. 
Our government can take a LARGE share of the blame, and it won't get better because those people in government are still there with the same logic...throw more money around. 
The American people that are also running some kind of deficit (intellectual or otherwise) are only adding to the problem and can also take blame for grabing the easy money with nothing down and not much income.

And we all will pay....

Offline LaOtto222

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Re: Here Is my opinion on our current economic crisis and how we got here.
« Reply #18 on: November 24, 2008, 02:25:01 AM »
Right on. We need less government not more. Unfortunately, now that they have it all balled up, they have to do some thing to save our businesses and jobs. It is a vicious cycle.

The stock market "crash" can be laid squarely on the shoulders of the bad banks. Once they started to get into trouble, they started to sell of their stock holdings, trying to stay above water. After such massive sell offs, the individual investors started to panic selling off theirs as well. Thus; started the massive sell off that pushed stock prices lower and lower. Who knows where they are going to stop? I know one thing, the low stock values only make doing business for the "good" companies that much harder. It makes it harder to get loans that they need to run their businesses because the value of their company is lower.
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Offline jimster

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Re: Here Is my opinion on our current economic crisis and how we got here.
« Reply #19 on: November 24, 2008, 03:30:08 AM »
Actually, I do not really think bailouts will change anything, if it's going to crash, it will crash anyways, and us giving our money to businesses won't help them for long. 

I might agree that SOME banks needed a bailout...some need to fail.
I would say any business that maufactures and sells a product,  needs to FAIL...and regroup.
Our money won't help them sell anything, and they will burn through that money faster than
berries through a goose in berry season. 

There has to be some logic here.  Failure IS the American way....you can't hold it up for long on my paycheck....eventually, I will fail too...then it all goes anyways. 

I say let most of it all fail now...start over.  Any large corporations can figure it out on their own without our money.  You can't spend your way out of debt....and a business can't be help up with other people's money, it must have sales....or die.   

We are only dragging it out longer with this bail out crap.

Offline 45-70.gov

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Re: Here Is my opinion on our current economic crisis and how we got here.
« Reply #20 on: November 24, 2008, 04:28:00 AM »
i  don't  know  what  law  to  quote
but  a friend manages   a credit union
he  said  during the Clinton administration they  were  threatened  with  prosecution
if  they  didn't write sub-prime loans

i  didn't  persue the subject  with  him
i  was  more  interested  in  buying a repo,,,,,
i  am  trying  to bail  out a credit  union
when drugs are outlawed only out laws will have drugs
DO WHAT EVER IT TAKES TO STOP A DEMOCRAT
OBAMACARE....the biggest tax hike in the  history of mankind
free choice and equality  can't co-exist
AFTER THE LIBYAN COVER-UP... remind any  democrat voters ''they sat and  watched them die''...they  told help to ''stand down''

many statements made here are fiction and are for entertainment purposes only and are in no way to be construed as a description of actual events.
no one is encouraged to do anything dangerous or break any laws.

Offline LaOtto222

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Re: Here Is my opinion on our current economic crisis and how we got here.
« Reply #21 on: November 24, 2008, 05:09:54 AM »
I certainly understand many of your feelings about bail outs. I am for a capitalistic country and bailing out businesses does not bode well for capitalism. But it was the government that got us into this mess and I feel now that they are the ones that have to get us out. Individuals can not spend our way out of trouble this big. The government (us collectively) is the only entity with enough money to turn this thing around. There were a few big banks that went under. That was before any kind of bail out for the banking industry. If the government let it continue, not only would the bad managed banks go under, it would have started to drag under good banks as well. The whole financial system would fail. When it fails the value of every business in the USA would drop. We would have super deflation. Every thing would cost less, because no one would have any money to spend. Business after business would fail, because they could not sell any of their products or services at prices they could make money at. Industry as we know it, would be no more. There would be no one with enough money to buy goods, either here or over seas. I guess we could stand by and let it happen. We could go to a barter system, similar to the way a lot of business was done a long time ago. We would all be much poorer than we have been for over 150 years. The deflation is not just happening here, it is global. All major industrial country's are looking at ways to stem the global deflation. Some have looked at the price drop of gasoline as a good thing. Who wants to spend more than they have to for a consumable product? The deflation of crude oil is just a symptom of a very troubled economy. If it was just gasoline, it would be a good thing, but we are talking just about every thing now. The drop in price is directly tied to no one wanting to buy it. They do not want to buy it because they do not have or do not have as much money to buy it. The big three are selling their cars for less. Commodities are going down. Retail stores are slashing prices, just to get people to come to their store. Every thing is going down or will go down. The people that understand; know what it would do to everyone if deflation continues. The super rich today would still be rich in comparison to every one else, but their real worth would be much less. The poor today would literally starve to death because there would be no more hand outs by the private sector (which is considerable) and little the government could do. If you have no tax money or little money coming in, there can be no money going out. The middle class would be no more, they would be poor, barely getting by. Look at the price of crude oil. There has not been as a dramatic drop; ever. We are tied together like it or not; rich, middle class, poor and everyone in the world that has any thing to start with. The financial system is complex and there are no easy solutions. We did not get here over night and we will not get out of this over night. I can not cover this completely in this forum. There could be books written about how we got here. There will be books written in the future how we got here and how we got out of it. I think we will get out of this mess someday, just how long it takes, is up to the people with the power, either monetary power or our elected officials (government power). I just hope we are talking years, not decades.
Great men have vision and resolve to make dreams come true.

Offline Matt

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Re: Here Is my opinion on our current economic crisis and how we got here.
« Reply #22 on: November 24, 2008, 06:17:32 AM »
Quote
Alot of the problem is the Federal Gov't led by Democrats Franks and Dodd made it a Federal offense for Banks to refuse Mortgages to people who could not afford them.

Still waiting on a bill number or a link to this law as you claim....

Quote
I still don't think you know 'stupid' when you see it.  Maybe Dad should be taking you out behind the shed.

Well lets see stupid would be claiming there is a law that says it is a federal offense not to loan money to those who cant pay it back...
And seeing as you are so adamant about someone taking me out behind the shed... come on down to AL and do it yourself...

Matt
Any fool can know. The point is to understand.”
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Offline Matt

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Re: Here Is my opinion on our current economic crisis and how we got here.
« Reply #23 on: November 24, 2008, 06:30:53 AM »
and for those of you who did not read it...

  ms;
  You better check up on the liberal legislators and "community organizers" that founded ACORN and such groups that in turn, coersed the Clinton admin and the Dems to make a law forcing lending institutions to float loans to non-employed people, under the guise of "affordable housing".  Look it up..it's the law..

ummm hate to say it but your wrong... first of all Clinton persuaded the federal reserve chairman to change the ratings requirements for banks thereby forcing the banks to make the risky loans to get the better ratings.... no laws and the dem's did not hold majority when this all took place which is the reason Clinton had to do it the way he did...   Again I beg you people stop talking out of your a.s.s. and do a little research... please...


Matt
Any fool can know. The point is to understand.”
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Offline jimster

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Re: Here Is my opinion on our current economic crisis and how we got here.
« Reply #24 on: November 24, 2008, 06:37:05 AM »
All I'm really saying here is...no matter how many billions you give the car companies, it won't do any good if they don't sell cars....and they won't sell enough of them,  so it's not logical to give them anything at all...is it?  That will be like burning money....and you'll see how it works soon enough...when they ask for more after all this money is gone in short order.  How many bailouts before someone finally pulls the plug is the real question here....too bad they just don't get it over with now,  the big three WOULD work this out on their own...but they don't have to now.  I'm just telling it like it is...no matter how much you give them, it won't help...cause you and I will not buy a car anytime soon, and anybody that borrows money to buy one is nuts in these times.  I do just fine with older cars.  

I also think before we jump right into the "people will starve" thing, we should remember that we as a nation are obese and overweight for the most part...and that it is not a problem for a person running for an elected office to get 150 million bucks in less than a month....maybe some politician will actually spread that wealth someday if some people do starve....till then...things are not tough enough I guess.  

Bring it on...let it fail....otherwise you will have what you always had....a lot of bunk politics with talk of people starving and how we all have to chip in and give our money to the government....so they can
do things with it that will save us all.  Well...news flash...I don't want to be saved by the same people
that dropped us on our heads in the first place.  Failing....is the first step to change all that, and probably
the only step that could.  Hell....might be the only way to get an independent party going....and break away from the two party system.  BREAK IT ALL!   I would hope you know Barney Frank is STILL THERE
with his pals!  Nothing is changing!!  And Freddie and Fannie are still there too!  What changed?
I would say considering that, we need to let things fail and get BAD!


I agreed with some banks....I will never agree with giving a business my tax money to keep them afloat....NEVER!  Also...as a free man...I should not be tied to any of this crap because someone wants to keep them afloat for a little while longer.  (note...LITTLE WHILE LONGER)....cause nothing is fixed and nothing has changed....

I has to fail first, before it can get better, you can let it fail now...or wait and do it later.
If they do it later...that means you burned a bunch of our tax money for nothing,  and you can write a book on that.  The book can be called...."we all logically saw it coming, why didn't they?"  Or maybe the book can be called  "we held it up as long as we could, we got tired and it fell anyways"....

The whole universe is based on math, everything in it.  The math is NOT there for bailouts to work.  
No matter how anybody "feels"...or thinks....the big three won't be able to do squat unless they sell cars and trucks to all of us.  I'm no buying!  How about you?  Unless the government gives me the bailout money...then I might!











Not to mention...if you want to feed the poor...just have another election....millions and millions of dollars floating around out there yet....maybe Obama can donate 150 million on his next big month.  



Offline Matt

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Re: Here Is my opinion on our current economic crisis and how we got here.
« Reply #25 on: November 24, 2008, 06:41:13 AM »
All I'm really saying here is...no matter how many billions you give the car companies, it won't do any good if they don't sell cars....and they won't sell enough of them,  so it's not logical to give them anything at all...is it?  

well said....
Any fool can know. The point is to understand.”
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Offline LaOtto222

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Re: Here Is my opinion on our current economic crisis and how we got here.
« Reply #26 on: November 24, 2008, 07:13:22 AM »
In the case of the car companies, it would probably make more sense to let them go chapter 11. Every case that a company comes to our government for a hand out has to be looked at as an individual basis. More than likely if the government hands the big three a hand out (bail out) and they (GM, Ford, Chrysler) do not change the way they do things, all it will do is prolong their inevitable demise. In the case of auto makers, there are others that are doing OK. If the the big three eventually goes under, there are others to pick up the slack. Their business model will and does work, they would survive to fill the needs of everyone. If the economy does not go down so far that they can not sell any autos at all.
Great men have vision and resolve to make dreams come true.

Offline jvs

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Re: Here Is my opinion on our current economic crisis and how we got here.
« Reply #27 on: November 26, 2008, 12:36:29 AM »
Well a smarter person would just provide a link to the law that they are so adamant exist rather than arguing and degrading the person who doubts you.  I think that we all agree that Government intervention is a HUGE part of what got us into this mess, but I seriously think you are talking out of your ass if you think that it is against the law for banks to turn down people for loans.  The Government inticed banks to make loans, but they didn't force them, just like no one forced people to take out loans they couldn't afford . Heather


Well.....  I got some bad news for you Heather and Matt, and a little advice before you read this.

First... I just got the time to look this info up, so read it and weep.  And I suggest that next time you call someone out as 'not too smart' or 'talking out their ass' you ass-u-me more care.  It will keep you both from sounding like a jack-ass. 

I don't think it is good policy for you to run your mouth, be ignorant of the facts at the same time, and be in a position of Authority.

Second...   I hope this is simple enough language for you to understand because I won't go thru it again for you or anyone else.   I figure it is above 6th grade level, but hey, I'll give it a shot.  There were links provided throughout these websites but I didn't keep them.  Look them up on your own.

Third...  this bit of advice...  If you want to run with the Wolves, you can't pee with the Puppies. 

So Heather, after you get done reading this,  you'll know what an ass sounds like, and it just might be you.

**********************************************************

“I want [Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae] to help with affordable housing, to help low-income families get loans and to help clean up this subprime mess. Otherwise, why should they exist?”   - Rep. Barney Frank.

The Subprime Panic of ’08 and its $1 trillion (and rising!) price tag is too big to blame on any one man. But if we had to, it would be Newton’s own Rep. Barney Frank.

So what happened?

The answer is actually quite simple: Freddie and Fannie happened. And they couldn’t have without the ferocious support of Barney Frank.

Freddie and Fannie were supposed to be safe suppliers of mortgage money for relatively low-risk loans. If you could qualify for a loan, F&F would make sure the banks had access to the money to make that loan, cheap money because it was backed by the American taxpayers.

But liberals like Barney Frank wanted more. They wanted the low cost of low-risk loans to be extended to higher-risk borrowers with lower incomes, fewer assets or less-solid credit. Barney Frank and friends used the regulations of the Community Reinvestment Act to threaten lenders into making these loans.  And banks, trying to meet Frank’s demands, expanded riskier lending schemes like subprime mortgages.

That’s when Freddie and Fannie stepped in. As Kevin Hassett of the American Enterprise Institute put it: “They fueled Wall Street’s efforts to securitize subprime loans by becoming the primary customer of all AAA-rated subprime-mortgage pools.”

Lenders asked themselves, why should I care how shaky these borrowers are or risky the loans if a government-backed body is going to buy them up anyway?
The loans were made, the housing market bubbled, contributions from F&F flowed to Democrats like Chris Dodd and Barack Obama, and everyone was happy. Until they weren’t.

Without Freddie and Fannie’s reckless expansion, the housing bubble doesn’t happen. Without the implied promise behind F&F’s money, investment banks don’t dive into the derivatives market.

Instead, we did it Frank’s way.

Not only has Frank spent his career stopping any real reform of Fannie and Freddie, he repeatedly insisted they weren’t backed by the taxpayers. “There is no federal liability whatsoever,” Frank said in 2000.

We had to bail them out with $200 billion in our tax dollars.

Alan Greenspan, John McCain and others warned that F&F were taking on too much risk, but Frank dismissed these “overblown” fears as ideological attacks against his favorite cash cow. Even after Franklin Raines and Joe Johnson were caught red-handed mismanaging these institutions, Frank still insisted “we are not facing any kind of crisis.”

Just how deep in the Fannie/Freddie tank was he? As The Wall Street Journal reports: “Mr. Frank was publicly arguing for an increase in the size of their combined $1.4 trillion portfolios right up to the day they were bailed out. Even now . . . he opposes Treasury’s planned reduction in the size of the portfolios starting in 2010.”

Our markets have collapsed, we’re paying through the nose, and Barney Frank is still fighting to keep Fannie and Freddie on the dole. Why? Because in his mind, the point of Fannie/Freddie is taxpayer-subsidized housing for low-income borrowers - no matter how bad their credit or how high the cost.  Otherwise,” he asks, “why should they exist?”

And what about us, the responsible borrowers and hard-working taxpayers stuck with the trillion-dollar tab? In Barney’s world, that’s the only reason we exist. He spends. We pay.

**********************************************************

The Root Cause

* According to Senator Chris Dodd (D. CT) the “root cause” of the problem is “the housing foreclosure crisis.”

Not 100% accurate, perhaps-it’s really a credit crisis-but close enough for government work, especially from someone who has just happens to chair the Senate Banking Committee and who, completely coincidentally, has been such a conspicuous beneficiary of preferential mortgages and who, also coincidentally, leads the list of those who have received campaign contributions from Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. 

* But what caused the housing crisis to which Senator Dodd alludes? The housing “bubble.”

* And what caused the housing bubble?

“Sub-prime,” i.e., risky, mortgages; that is, mortgages made to people who, in the normal course of things would have to pay a premium in order to obtain a mortgage (if they could obtain one at all) because:

a) they had bad or non-existent credit
b) their income was insufficient or
c) both.

Packaging the American Dream

A home of your own. It’s part of the American dream. Work hard, save up for a down payment, pay your bills on time and, presto, you, too, can buy a home.
For decades the government has done things to help Americans to realize the dream, e.g., graciously allowing citizens to keep some of their own money to help pay for the interest on a mortgage (the official term for this is a “tax deduction,” but I prefer my locution since it emphasizes the fact that it is YOUR MONEY we are talking about).

But what about people who do not work hard (if they work at all)? What about people who have not saved up for a down payment? What about people who do not pay their bills on time (if they pay them at all)? Why shouldn’t they get to live the American dream?

That was the question that led to “The Community Reinvestment Act”

* The original Community Reinvestment Act was signed into law in 1977 by Jimmy Carter. Its purpose, in a nutshell, was to require banks to provide credit to “under-served populations,” i.e., those with poor credit.

The buzz word was “affordable mortgages ,” e.g., mortgages with low teaser-rates, which required the borrower to put no money down, which required the borrower to pay only the interest for a set number of years, etc.

* In 1995, Bill Clinton’s administration made various changes to the CRA, increasing “access to mortgage credit for inner city and distressed rural communities,” i.e., it provided for the securitization , i.e. public underwriting, of what everyone now calls “sub-prime mortgages.”

Bottom line?  It forced banks to issue $1 trillion in sub-prime mortgages.
$1 trillion, i.e., a thousand billion dollars in sub-prime,i.e., risky, mortgages, in order to push this latest example of social engineering.

But wait: how did it force banks to do this?  Easy. Introduce a federal requirement that banks make the loans or face penalties.

As Howard Husock, writing in City Journal way back in 2000 observed_the_trillion_dollar mark: “Bank examiners would use federal home-loan data, broken down by neighborhood, income group, and race, to rate banks on performance. There would be no more A’s for effort. Only results-specific loans, specific levels of service-would count.”

Way back in 1994, for example, Barack Obama sued Citibank on behalf of a client who charged that the bank “systematically denied mortgages to African-American applicants and others from minority neighborhoods.”

* In 1997, Bear Stearns-O firm of blessed memory-was the first  to get onto the sub-prime gravy train.

* Fannie Mae & Freddy Mac were there near the beginning, too.

Anatomy of a bubble

Step 1. The intoxication: “My house is worth millions!” From 1995 - 2005, the number of sub-prime mortgages skyrocket. So did the house prices.

Step 2. The hangover: “Oh my God, my house isn’t selling. What went wrong?”
Why didn’t someone try to stop it?

Someone did - “The Bush administration today recommended the most significant regulatory overhaul in the housing finance industry since the savings and loan crisis a decade ago,” The New York Times, September 11, 2003.

But someone intervened to stymie the Bush administration. Who? The New York Times reports:  Supporters of the companies said efforts to regulate the lenders tightly under those agencies might diminish their ability to finance loans for lower-income families. . . . “These two entities - Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac - are not facing any kind of financial crisis,” said Representative Barney Frank of Massachusetts, the ranking Democrat on the Financial Services Committee. “The more people exaggerate these problems, the more pressure there is on these companies, the less we will see in terms of affordable housing.”

Why didn’t someone else ring the alarm?

Someone else did. In 2005, John McCain  warned_of_mortgage_collapse_in_2005 co-sponsored the “Federal Housing Enterprise Regulatory Reform Act ,” which among other things provided for more oversight of Freddie & Fannie. The bill didn’t pass. Guess who blocked it?

The bill was reintroduced in 2007. But again, no luck. Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac had friends in the Senate:

* Chris Dodd, Chairman-committee-on-banking-housing-and-urban-affairs a recipient of “sweetheart” loans from a Freddie and Fannie backed company.
* The junior senator from Illinois, i.e., Barack Obama, who turned to Jim Johnson, former head  (1991-1998) of Fannie Mae, to help advise him on whom to pick for the vice-presidential slot on his ticket. From 1985 to 1990, incidentally, Johnson was managing director of Lehman Brothers. Remember them?

*********************************************************
 If you want to run with the Wolves, you can't Pee with the Puppies.

Offline Heather

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Re: Here Is my opinion on our current economic crisis and how we got here.
« Reply #28 on: November 26, 2008, 08:57:46 AM »
Well a smarter person would just provide a link to the law that they are so adamant exist rather than arguing and degrading the person who doubts you.  I think that we all agree that Government intervention is a HUGE part of what got us into this mess, but I seriously think you are talking out of your ass if you think that it is against the law for banks to turn down people for loans.  The Government inticed banks to make loans, but they didn't force them, just like no one forced people to take out loans they couldn't afford . Heather


Well.....  I got some bad news for you Heather and Matt, and a little advice before you read this.

First... I just got the time to look this info up, so read it and weep.  And I suggest that next time you call someone out as 'not too smart' or 'talking out their ass' you ass-u-me more care.  It will keep you both from sounding like a jack-ass. 

I don't think it is good policy for you to run your mouth, be ignorant of the facts at the same time, and be in a position of Authority.

Second...   I hope this is simple enough language for you to understand because I won't go thru it again for you or anyone else.   I figure it is above 6th grade level, but hey, I'll give it a shot.  There were links provided throughout these websites but I didn't keep them.  Look them up on your own.

Third...  this bit of advice...  If you want to run with the Wolves, you can't pee with the Puppies. 

So Heather, after you get done reading this,  you'll know what an ass sounds like, and it just might be you.

**********************************************************

“I want [Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae] to help with affordable housing, to help low-income families get loans and to help clean up this subprime mess. Otherwise, why should they exist?”   - Rep. Barney Frank.

The Subprime Panic of ’08 and its $1 trillion (and rising!) price tag is too big to blame on any one man. But if we had to, it would be Newton’s own Rep. Barney Frank.

So what happened?

The answer is actually quite simple: Freddie and Fannie happened. And they couldn’t have without the ferocious support of Barney Frank.

Freddie and Fannie were supposed to be safe suppliers of mortgage money for relatively low-risk loans. If you could qualify for a loan, F&F would make sure the banks had access to the money to make that loan, cheap money because it was backed by the American taxpayers.

But liberals like Barney Frank wanted more. They wanted the low cost of low-risk loans to be extended to higher-risk borrowers with lower incomes, fewer assets or less-solid credit. Barney Frank and friends used the regulations of the Community Reinvestment Act to threaten lenders into making these loans.  And banks, trying to meet Frank’s demands, expanded riskier lending schemes like subprime mortgages.

That’s when Freddie and Fannie stepped in. As Kevin Hassett of the American Enterprise Institute put it: “They fueled Wall Street’s efforts to securitize subprime loans by becoming the primary customer of all AAA-rated subprime-mortgage pools.”

Lenders asked themselves, why should I care how shaky these borrowers are or risky the loans if a government-backed body is going to buy them up anyway?
The loans were made, the housing market bubbled, contributions from F&F flowed to Democrats like Chris Dodd and Barack Obama, and everyone was happy. Until they weren’t.

Without Freddie and Fannie’s reckless expansion, the housing bubble doesn’t happen. Without the implied promise behind F&F’s money, investment banks don’t dive into the derivatives market.

Instead, we did it Frank’s way.

Not only has Frank spent his career stopping any real reform of Fannie and Freddie, he repeatedly insisted they weren’t backed by the taxpayers. “There is no federal liability whatsoever,” Frank said in 2000.

We had to bail them out with $200 billion in our tax dollars.

Alan Greenspan, John McCain and others warned that F&F were taking on too much risk, but Frank dismissed these “overblown” fears as ideological attacks against his favorite cash cow. Even after Franklin Raines and Joe Johnson were caught red-handed mismanaging these institutions, Frank still insisted “we are not facing any kind of crisis.”

Just how deep in the Fannie/Freddie tank was he? As The Wall Street Journal reports: “Mr. Frank was publicly arguing for an increase in the size of their combined $1.4 trillion portfolios right up to the day they were bailed out. Even now . . . he opposes Treasury’s planned reduction in the size of the portfolios starting in 2010.”

Our markets have collapsed, we’re paying through the nose, and Barney Frank is still fighting to keep Fannie and Freddie on the dole. Why? Because in his mind, the point of Fannie/Freddie is taxpayer-subsidized housing for low-income borrowers - no matter how bad their credit or how high the cost.  Otherwise,” he asks, “why should they exist?”

And what about us, the responsible borrowers and hard-working taxpayers stuck with the trillion-dollar tab? In Barney’s world, that’s the only reason we exist. He spends. We pay.

**********************************************************

The Root Cause

* According to Senator Chris Dodd (D. CT) the “root cause” of the problem is “the housing foreclosure crisis.”

Not 100% accurate, perhaps-it’s really a credit crisis-but close enough for government work, especially from someone who has just happens to chair the Senate Banking Committee and who, completely coincidentally, has been such a conspicuous beneficiary of preferential mortgages and who, also coincidentally, leads the list of those who have received campaign contributions from Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. 

* But what caused the housing crisis to which Senator Dodd alludes? The housing “bubble.”

* And what caused the housing bubble?

“Sub-prime,” i.e., risky, mortgages; that is, mortgages made to people who, in the normal course of things would have to pay a premium in order to obtain a mortgage (if they could obtain one at all) because:

a) they had bad or non-existent credit
b) their income was insufficient or
c) both.

Packaging the American Dream

A home of your own. It’s part of the American dream. Work hard, save up for a down payment, pay your bills on time and, presto, you, too, can buy a home.
For decades the government has done things to help Americans to realize the dream, e.g., graciously allowing citizens to keep some of their own money to help pay for the interest on a mortgage (the official term for this is a “tax deduction,” but I prefer my locution since it emphasizes the fact that it is YOUR MONEY we are talking about).

But what about people who do not work hard (if they work at all)? What about people who have not saved up for a down payment? What about people who do not pay their bills on time (if they pay them at all)? Why shouldn’t they get to live the American dream?

That was the question that led to “The Community Reinvestment Act”

* The original Community Reinvestment Act was signed into law in 1977 by Jimmy Carter. Its purpose, in a nutshell, was to require banks to provide credit to “under-served populations,” i.e., those with poor credit.

The buzz word was “affordable mortgages ,” e.g., mortgages with low teaser-rates, which required the borrower to put no money down, which required the borrower to pay only the interest for a set number of years, etc.

* In 1995, Bill Clinton’s administration made various changes to the CRA, increasing “access to mortgage credit for inner city and distressed rural communities,” i.e., it provided for the securitization , i.e. public underwriting, of what everyone now calls “sub-prime mortgages.”

Bottom line?  It forced banks to issue $1 trillion in sub-prime mortgages.
$1 trillion, i.e., a thousand billion dollars in sub-prime,i.e., risky, mortgages, in order to push this latest example of social engineering.

But wait: how did it force banks to do this?  Easy. Introduce a federal requirement that banks make the loans or face penalties.

As Howard Husock, writing in City Journal way back in 2000 observed_the_trillion_dollar mark: “Bank examiners would use federal home-loan data, broken down by neighborhood, income group, and race, to rate banks on performance. There would be no more A’s for effort. Only results-specific loans, specific levels of service-would count.”

Way back in 1994, for example, Barack Obama sued Citibank on behalf of a client who charged that the bank “systematically denied mortgages to African-American applicants and others from minority neighborhoods.”

* In 1997, Bear Stearns-O firm of blessed memory-was the first  to get onto the sub-prime gravy train.

* Fannie Mae & Freddy Mac were there near the beginning, too.

Anatomy of a bubble

Step 1. The intoxication: “My house is worth millions!” From 1995 - 2005, the number of sub-prime mortgages skyrocket. So did the house prices.

Step 2. The hangover: “Oh my God, my house isn’t selling. What went wrong?”
Why didn’t someone try to stop it?

Someone did - “The Bush administration today recommended the most significant regulatory overhaul in the housing finance industry since the savings and loan crisis a decade ago,” The New York Times, September 11, 2003.

But someone intervened to stymie the Bush administration. Who? The New York Times reports:  Supporters of the companies said efforts to regulate the lenders tightly under those agencies might diminish their ability to finance loans for lower-income families. . . . “These two entities - Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac - are not facing any kind of financial crisis,” said Representative Barney Frank of Massachusetts, the ranking Democrat on the Financial Services Committee. “The more people exaggerate these problems, the more pressure there is on these companies, the less we will see in terms of affordable housing.”

Why didn’t someone else ring the alarm?

Someone else did. In 2005, John McCain  warned_of_mortgage_collapse_in_2005 co-sponsored the “Federal Housing Enterprise Regulatory Reform Act ,” which among other things provided for more oversight of Freddie & Fannie. The bill didn’t pass. Guess who blocked it?

The bill was reintroduced in 2007. But again, no luck. Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac had friends in the Senate:

* Chris Dodd, Chairman-committee-on-banking-housing-and-urban-affairs a recipient of “sweetheart” loans from a Freddie and Fannie backed company.
* The junior senator from Illinois, i.e., Barack Obama, who turned to Jim Johnson, former head  (1991-1998) of Fannie Mae, to help advise him on whom to pick for the vice-presidential slot on his ticket. From 1985 to 1990, incidentally, Johnson was managing director of Lehman Brothers. Remember them?

*********************************************************


Thank you for proving my point.  As I said "the government inticed banks to make loans, but they didn't force them"  Making someone pay penalties is a far cry from force.  The banks still chose to make the loans instead of pay the fines.  You have taken my and Matt's words personally for some reason.  I think you need to take your own advice about running your mouth without the facts.  In your own ignorance in interpreting this information as some way to prove your point you proved mine.  THERE IS NO SPECIFIC LAW REQUIRING BANKS TO MAKE BAD LOANS!

 When this discussion/debate began between you and Matt I simply was offering advice.  I learned a long time ago that there is no other way to shut him up or prove him wrong without facts.  You have yet to provide the LAW that makes it ILLEGAL for banks to turn down people for loans.  I understand and agree with you that the Government made it hard for banks to make wise decisions with their regulation, but in my opinion and the laws on the books the banks still had a choice. 

Now that this discussion/debate has became a little heated and now I realize that even though Matt is quiet an arrogant ass hole and throws his weight around on this site, you are quiet deserving of his attention.  Why you decided to attack me personally is beyond me.  A smarter person would have provided this information first.  You were talking out of your ass when you said there was such a law, because THERE ISN'T! If there is you have yet to prove it!   I never proclaim to know facts that don't exist. 

You and I are in total agreement as to what led to the demise of our economy.  The only difference is I am spreading the blame beyond the Gov. and including the banks and the people.  If you have read anything I have posted you should know that I view the Gov. as the Big Bad Wolf in most cases.  In this particular instance it wasn't their fault entirely.  They started the ripple, but the banks and the people had a choice and they made the wrong ones.  Since you aren't man enough to admit that you were wrong and exaggerated the truth then I guess you won't be able to understand that we see eye to eye on this issue.

And as for your it might be you comment concerning being an ass, I may be an ass, but at least I am a smartass and not a dumbass!

Heather
Strive for complete serenity in all aspects of life.
www.mymartialartsplus.com

A closed mind is often closed to the truth!

Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and loose both...Ben Franklin

Offline jvs

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Re: Here Is my opinion on our current economic crisis and how we got here.
« Reply #29 on: November 26, 2008, 09:50:58 AM »
Heather,

You said this...

"Thank you for proving my point.  As I said "the government inticed banks to make loans, but they didn't force them"  Making someone pay penalties is a far cry from force."

What Planet are you on? 

and this...


"I understand and agree with you that the Government made it hard for banks to make wise decisions with their regulation, but in my opinion and the laws on the books the banks still had a choice. "

EARTH TO HEATHER.....EARTH TO HEATHER...  ARE YOU THERE ?  (You've been holding the hose to the Vacuum Cleaner to one of your ears again, haven't you?)

"Why you decided to attack me personally is beyond me.  A smarter person would have provided this information first.  You were talking out of your ass when you said there was such a law, because THERE ISN'T! If there is you have yet to prove it!     And as for your it might be you comment concerning being an ass, I may be an ass, but at least I am a smartass and not a dumbass! "

That last sentence has me quite disturbed, and it may be our biggest difference of opinion so far.

You can spin your point any way you want to.  In the end, (and you know what I mean), you are wrong.

Geez, I hate having a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.
 If you want to run with the Wolves, you can't Pee with the Puppies.