.454 335GC Loads?

[Coueshunter]

Hi all,
I am new to the forum and have learned much by reading through these postings. I have a FA field grade I want to load up some Cast Performance 335 grain gas check bullets for. I would like one load in the 1200-1300 fps range and the other in the 1450-1550 fps range. I have 2400 and AA-9 powder but can buy H110/W296 if needed. Any suggested loads?
Thanks in advance,
Mike

[jphendren]

Hello Coueshunter,

I have been using that same bullet lately in .45 Colt brass, fired in my M83 .454 revolver.  Hodgdon has load data for that bullet on their website.  So far I have been unable to find a load for that bullet using 2400, but there are loads that use W296 and H110.  I have been using 21gr. of W296 in .45 Colt brass as I mentioned; recoil is pretty stout.  If I recall, about 23gr. of W296 is the starting load in the .454 case, but you should check out Hodgdon's website to verify that before using it.

Jared

[Coueshunter]

Thanks for the info Jared.

Has anyone tried AA-9 with this bullet?

Mike

[Coueshunter]

I bench tested loads with 23.0 and 24.0 grains of W 296 today. The 24.0 grain load grouped 5 in 1.75" with 3 a ragged hole at 25 yards so it definitely looks promising. I will re-test that load and work up from there to see if there is a sweet spot. With iron sights I'm not sure I can do much better. Looks like I'll need a taller front sight though...
Mike

[Bearbait in NM]

Mike,

I was hoping to have more info for you, as I have been playing with the exact same bullet in my FA 83 Field Grade.  I have done some limited testing at this point, so I thought I would share.

First, my gun has a 4 3/4 barrel, with red dot sight (JPoint).  The JPoint is allowing me to really dial in the accuracy side.  With 23 grains of H110, my accuracy has been pretty bad.  Same with HS6, both loads I am looking for something intermediate as far as pressure.  With the 23 grains, I think I am right at the sonic threshold, as a few sounded really funny.  I am also seeing some pretty high velocity strings, so the 23 grains may be a little shy of good case volume.  I have played with the same bullet and the 360 grain version, and quite a few different powders, and my accuracy is really poor.  Like you a couple shots close together, but the overall group pretty large.  I think that it is not my shooting, as I have a control load with a 300 Lasercast and Titegroup at 1050 fps that will literally put 8 of 10 into the same hole.  This recipe "startled" me at first, but I have shot enough of them to know that my gun likes this combo a lot.

I am starting to believe what I have seen written that the 335 CP may need more pressure and velocity to really come together.  The BN hardness of the LC and CP are pretty close, so I have been frustrated with an intermediate load with the ultra heavy CP bullets.  I also have a recipe with the 260 CP at medium velocity, and these groups have been very nice.  My gun will put about any jacketed bullet into tight groups, and the Laser Cast, but the heavy CP bullets have thus far stumped me.  Luckily I have about a thousand of the 335's to iron things out.

And if your existing setup for sights is for lighter weight bullets, you may need the tallest FA sight.  I have mine set up with the medium high front sight, that was dialed in for 250ish class bullets.  Before I put on the JPoint, I had to go with the taller front sight with the ultra heavy bullets.  With my JPoint, the 335's are about 4-6 inches higher than my 250ish class loads.  The 360's are even higher.

Craig

[jphendren]

In .45 Colt cases with 21gr of W296, my point of impact was about a foot hight at 25 yards with a .380 front sight.  The hits were completely off of the top of the target, I can't recall how tight the group was, definitely not 1.75" though.  I have another batch put together with 22, 22.5, 23, and 23.5gr of W296.  I need to shoot these from a bench rest to really see how they shoot, the last batch were shot from the Keith sitting position which is not stable enough to verify accuracy.  I now have a .430 orange fiber optic sight blade also, maybe these loads will come down to POA at 25 yards with this blade.

I am curious, will the .335gr WLNGC fit the M83 cylinder when loaded in .454 cases?  They come pretty close to the front of the cylinder when loaded in .45 Colt cases.

Jared

[MarkH]

Yes ... the Cast Performance 335 and the Montana Bullet 335 will fit in the cylinder in 454 brass.

Craig - have you tried IMR4227?  It is my favorite powder for intermediate loads in the 454.  I use H110 for heavy loads, but mostly shoot IMR4227 with 300's and 325 gr cast WFNGC or LFNGC.  The accuracy seems to be just shy of what I can do with H110 and a jacketed bullet, but certainly good enough for 100-150 yard shooting.

I also have a new load I've been shooting since I crapped out my right wrist - 17.5 gr HS6 and a 250 gr Nosler Sporting Hollowpoint in 454 brass.  Kind of surprised me as my previous experience with HS6 was not that good, but it looks like it will be a keeper powder for sure.  Not sure I can take the recoil of even that load right now, but it very accurate out to 100 yards.

Otherwise, hope life is going good in NM.

[Bearbait in NM]

Jared,

I will echo what Mark posted, the 335 CP WLNGC fits nicely in the 83.

Mark,

Thanks for saying hello.  I guess it has been a while.  I just found this forum a few weeks ago.  I read about your injury on the other forums, man that is a bummer.

I gave up on H4227, as I had a lot of powder residue in my chambers, with intermediate loads.  I actually had to blow into each chamber after ejection, to keep them clear.  I still have a couple of pounds of it, but my understanding was that Hodgdon was only gonna keep one flavour of 4227.  I think the I4227.  I have not tried any of recent mfg.

I have been going through lots of HS6 for my lighter loads.  It is a fantastic powder, reasonable velocity and amazingly clean.  I have played with the Nosler 250, and a boatload of other jacketed in similar weights, and everything shoots very well.  I have been stopping more at 15 grains.  Right now, I can put just about any 250ish class bullet, lead or jacketed over about 15 grains of HS6, and pretty much drop them in some really nice groups at 25 yards. All grouping pretty much the same.  Right now my bullet of choice is the Hornady 250 non-mag XTP.  I have lots of other XTP weights that I am going to work with, and the FA JFP in 260.  My plan is to work up the loads that are comfortable to shoot, then media test the dickens out of all of them.

My "problem" is that Titegroup is giving me even better accuracy.  As I posted, startling at times.  I am definately running out of intermediate room with Titghtgroup, but right now I will be using it for plinker loads, and light intermediate.  The only problem that TG is giving me is that it is significantly dirtier than HS6.  After about 250-300 rounds, the gun starts to get sluggish.  Not an issue with HS6.

My quest for lighter loads has not been due to an injury like you are enduring, I just need to relearn my approach to the heavy hitting single actions.  After spending 30 minutes 15 yards from a nice 6x6 elk this last deer season, I decided that the 460 Rowland on my hip would note be quite enough handgun for any future elk trips. I was deer hunting with my AR in 458 Socom, by the way, no elk tag.  Funny how a lot of internet theory meets up with real world experiences. I guess I am not the first to not need to take a shot to question a choice in application.

I shoot my 1911's very well, especially my 460 Rowland, stoked up very warm, but my FA gun has always given me fits.  So, I am trying to reteach myself, from the beginning.  I have mounted a JPoint on a FA base, and the dot is really helping me understand my issues with trigger control and SA revolvers.  The FA base only needed slight modding to ride nicely in my Myres holster.  And it carries and even conceals nicely.  The FA base has a nice fixed rear back-up sight that is also working well for my mid loads.  I have fitted a nice pair of bastogne walnut grips to the gun, and have them whittled down nicely to fit my hand.  Now to spend some quality time with less than mega thumper loads this year, and I should be good to go.  Besides, these intermediate loads in my FA gun end up being pretty warm loads in my Puma.

I do hope that you and yours are well this Christmas season.  I do know that your hunting season went well.  Even if you are having a love affair with rifles.........

Craig

[Lloyd Smale]

mark has good advice and has probably loaded and shot more 454s then me but ill add this. the 454 has allways seemed to me to be more primer sensitive that other calibers so it will probably pay for you to try a couple different primers. I usually try ww first. they have tended to work best. But not allways.

Yes ... the Cast Performance 335 and the Montana Bullet 335 will fit in the cylinder in 454 brass.

Craig - have you tried IMR4227?  It is my favorite powder for intermediate loads in the 454.  I use H110 for heavy loads, but mostly shoot IMR4227 with 300's and 325 gr cast WFNGC or LFNGC.  The accuracy seems to be just shy of what I can do with H110 and a jacketed bullet, but certainly good enough for 100-150 yard shooting.

I also have a new load I've been shooting since I crapped out my right wrist - 17.5 gr HS6 and a 250 gr Nosler Sporting Hollowpoint in 454 brass.  Kind of surprised me as my previous experience with HS6 was not that good, but it looks like it will be a keeper powder for sure.  Not sure I can take the recoil of even that load right now, but it very accurate out to 100 yards.

Otherwise, hope life is going good in NM.

[Bearbait in NM]

Lloyd,

Thank you, that is a good point.  Years ago I did fiddle with different primers some.  I then bought a very large supply of WW primers, and have been whittling away at the stash.  I do have quite a lot of "odds and ends" collected over the years, might be a good time to try some different combinations.  With my luck, I would find a really nice load with Benchrest primers

I do have a question for you, as you seem to have more cast bullet knowledge than most.  For these heavy lead bullets, should I concentrate more on the correct pressure for the alloy or speed in the FA twist?  I know it all plays a role, just curious if there is one component that is more critical, in your opinion?  And I know speed and pressure are very much related, it is just that I am experimenting with quite a few different powder types, and I have a bit of flexibility here.

Craig

[MarkH]

Craig - IMR4227 and H4227 are bad about leaving unburned/partially combusted powder grains, but that problem tends to go away when you bump the powder charge up to a minimal level.  I'm sure you know that, though.  It is a sooty powder ... but safe and accurate for moderate loads.  I just don't like using fast powders for anything but light loads in the 454.

I haven't tried HS6 with the 300's+ though.  I couldn't find any reliable data at the time, had a bad experience with what "should" have been some reliable data, and set it aside.  My data for the 250 gr load comes from the source.

In any event, would you mind emailing me your load data for HS6 and the 300-335 gr?  Any chrono results?

FWIW, the only primer I've ever used in the 454 is the WSR.  So much for experimentation 

mark@hargrovelaw.com

[Lloyd Smale]

if there cast performance bullets there plenty hard for any velocity and in my opinion hard is better at level. I would try to kick them in the but a little to match your twist rate. I also wouldnt strap myself to one powder. Try some aa9 or 4227 or even 2400. Ive had good luck with all of them in 454s. As a matter of fact all three of them are actually easier to work loads up for then 110/296. I use it too but its very pressure sensitive and really only works good with top end loads in most cases. I actually dont know what a cp bullet even is. But keep in mind that for a general rule the wider the meplat the shorter the bullet and the shorter the bullet the more speed it will need to stablize in the same twist barrel and the slower the twist the more speed you will need too. Another thing to experiement with in a fa guns is bullets size. Ive seen 454 fa guns that actually did better with 451 bullets then they have with 452s. Cast bullets can be a funny deal. To me there much better on game then a jacketed bullet but come with some idiosyncrasys. They bring many variables into the picture that are as imprortant with jacketed such as size, alloy and the type of lube used and any one of those can effect accuracy as much as switching primer and powder will in a jacketed bullet.  So unless your luckier then me it gets pretty tough to tell a guy that isnt making his own how to vastly improve the accuracy in his gun. The great thing is with the added variables it brings into the picture a guy can take the most finiky gun made and usually find something that shoots well in it with enough experimenting.

Lloyd,

Thank you, that is a good point.  Years ago I did fiddle with different primers some.  I then bought a very large supply of WW primers, and have been whittling away at the stash.  I do have quite a lot of "odds and ends" collected over the years, might be a good time to try some different combinations.  With my luck, I would find a really nice load with Benchrest primers

I do have a question for you, as you seem to have more cast bullet knowledge than most.  For these heavy lead bullets, should I concentrate more on the correct pressure for the alloy or speed in the FA twist?  I know it all plays a role, just curious if there is one component that is more critical, in your opinion?  And I know speed and pressure are very much related, it is just that I am experimenting with quite a few different powder types, and I have a bit of flexibility here.

Craig

[Bearbait in NM]

Mark,

I will compile a list for you, and e-mail to you.  I can say that I have a couple of loads with HS6 and 335 and 360's in the low intermediate range that are in the single digit ES range, and appear to be very consistent.  Same with Bullseye and Tightgroup.  I have dropped Bullseye, as Tightgroup seems like the best choice for light intermediate loads.  Just not great accuracy out of my 4 3/4 inch barrel.  Could be lack of velocity to stablize, or my lack of skill with the gun.  I don't do anything with reloading without my chrony at my side. Sometimes two.  I too have had some misadventures, out in no mans land.  If you remember back when LilGun came out, it was thought to be the majic powder for super heavy bullets.  Back when neither Hodgdon nor Cast Performance had any pressure data.  Back when my gun was new.  back when I thought the gun needed to recoil past my head to be fun.  I had a stout load worked up.  When Hodgdon came out with pressure data a few years ago for this combination, I almost had a heart attack.  I pulled a lot of bullets, and you know the phrase about He who watches out for small children and fools.......I can add to that, he at FA who builds guns strong enough for fools........

Lloyd,

Thank you again very much for taking the time to respond.  Your answer was pretty much what I expected.  Way too many variables, especially for a non-caster.  I know I should, but realistically probably will not start.  Still, for me, a rabid reloader, the journey is as much fun as the destination. I am pretty certain that the ultra heavies are gonna give me fits at less than warm loads.  My goal with these is to stop just short of the sonic level, or go well past.  I know that I am good to go with H110/296 at the high end.  I have found my sweet spots there.  It is just a little frustrating with the heavies at 1100 fps or so, posting a perfectly round group at 25 yards with 15 or 20 rounds.  The chrony results are perfect.  It is just that the group is 2-3 inches round.  I think the load is willing, but the spirit (barrel twist/hardness etc.) is weak.

I have experimented a bit with varing the diameter of the bullets.  I have a large stash of Cast Performance (CP) 360's in .451 diameter that I picked up from Kelly Brost before he and Rene sold the business.  I guess I need to break them out.  But buying consistent lead bullets is sometimes hard enough, without trying to throw a custom size into the mix.  I do have another powder that I am going to try.  Hodgdon's Longshot.  They do have pressure data in their 2008 magazine, and I have a lot of it for another application.  It's burning rate is pretty close to 2400, and it might surprise me.  I know I am funny this way, but I tend to like to stay with Hodgdon powders.  They are a little easier to find for me (I live in a fairly remote location, with the closest shops a couple of hours away), and more importantly I feel Hodgdon has been the best resource for us handloaders.  Especially big bore pistol shooters.  Pressure data, new applications, new powders.  Loyal like a dog, perhaps with the wrong master?

I guess the upside is that I can run any jacketed bullets pretty much into the same hole with my FA gun.  And I have two recipes with 250 and 300 grain lead bullets that are right on the money.  Some would call it good there.  But, I am funny that way.

Craig