Author Topic: 45-70 Goverment recoil ???? (Read 8572 times)

deernhog · « **Reply #30 on:** December 07, 2008, 07:39:33 AM »

I amen the less than lethal (to the shooter) loads. Even the lite CAS loads will do the job on a deer at open sighted hunting range. I shot a doe at 160 yards with mine "the longest shot I have ever took at a deer" using the remington factory rounds. I sight my lever guns in at 100 yards and I aimed mid way up rib cage for a perfect boiler room shot. Recoil is acceptable enough to still follow thru with the shot. Sorry for my mis information on the original bp loads I sure thought the 500 grn load was first but I knew they loaded them down for the carbine at some point. One of those infantry rifles weighs a ton should have not been bad on the recoil.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #31 on:** December 08, 2008, 03:19:20 AM »

The good thing about the 45-70 is, it can be loaded from mild to wild. The factory loads are mild in my opinion also. With the new trail boss powder, the 45-70 can be loaded very mild and still be a good deer hunting round.

Nothing like a 45-70...

deernhog · « **Reply #32 on:** December 08, 2008, 04:16:51 PM »

The 1475 fps loads are as hot as I have loaded. While accurate for the first 5 rounds they are leading quik after that. I either need to resize the cast bullets, change lubes, back off the velocity or all of the above. It's a H3198 load out of the book under 405 grn rnhb wheel weight cast. I was impressed with the load till they leaded up and opened way up after the 5th round. Never paid much attention to the recoil concentrating on the group.

Blackhawker · « **Reply #33 on:** December 08, 2008, 07:23:05 PM »

Quote from: deernhog on December 08, 2008, 04:16:51 PM

The 1475 fps loads are as hot as I have loaded. While accurate for the first 5 rounds they are leading quik after that. I either need to resize the cast bullets, change lubes, back off the velocity or all of the above. It's a H3198 load out of the book under 405 grn rnhb wheel weight cast. I was impressed with the load till they leaded up and opened way up after the 5th round. Never paid much attention to the recoil concentrating on the group.

Try shooting gas checked cast bullets. You can load them up to whatever velocity you like and still not get leading. I just went through a box of 410 grain gas checked cast reloads that according to the Lymann catalog should have been moving downrange between 1,600 and 1,700 fps and none showed a bit of leading.

deernhog · « **Reply #34 on:** December 09, 2008, 02:00:24 AM »

I lean to beleive mine is more of a sizing problem and lube. The bulletts came out of the mold slightly oversized .461 but load and chamber ok. The hollow base bullett I mold won't take a gas check.

Cottonwood · « **Reply #35 on:** December 09, 2008, 04:49:04 AM »

Quote from: deernhog on December 09, 2008, 02:00:24 AM

I lean to beleive mine is more of a sizing problem and lube. The bulletts came out of the mold slightly oversized .461 but load and chamber ok. The hollow base bullett I mold won't take a gas check.

Ah you casting the Lee 459-405-HB mold are ya? You can get a sizer die if you have a lubesizer that will trim that for you to proper dia for your barrel. Good bullet as I used to cast them for my BPCR mid range shooting, but I don't cast any longer due to space and location. From mild to wild on those loads, and when you find one that is accurate stay right there.

Badnews Bob · « **Reply #36 on:** December 09, 2008, 11:20:03 AM »

Deerhog the original load was for a 500gr bullet but they found the 405 to be more inline with the armys requirement, They did change to a lighter load for the carbines but same bullet, Also issued was a garrison load with three round balls.

nebrguy · « **Reply #37 on:** December 12, 2008, 07:50:37 AM »

Please provide a link or source where it states the 500 gr. bullet was the original (1873 ) weight.

Blackhawker · « **Reply #38 on:** December 12, 2008, 10:14:30 AM »

Quote from: nebrguy on December 12, 2008, 07:50:37 AM

Please provide a link or source where it states the 500 gr. bullet was the original (1873 ) weight.

According to the Wikipedia link, 405 was the original weight in 1873 and it wasn't until 1879 that the military switched to the 500 grain bullet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.45-70_Government

nebrguy · « **Reply #39 on:** December 12, 2008, 11:21:10 AM »

Blackwater, hello to you and my best regards. You are pretty close. Every source I have ever read on the subject pretty much agree that while the army did test the 500 gr. projectile in 1879 ( Sandy Hook tests ), it was not actually adopted for widespread field use until August of 1882 .

nebrguy · « **Reply #40 on:** December 12, 2008, 11:22:02 AM »

..Make that " Blackhawker "......my apology

Blackhawker · « **Reply #41 on:** December 15, 2008, 08:43:41 AM »

Quote from: nebrguy on December 12, 2008, 11:22:02 AM

..Make that " Blackhawker "......my apology

Oh black water, keep on rolling..... no problem there nebrguy!

When you think about it, 405 or 500 grainers even at trap-door velocities.....that's one heck of a bullet to be struck by for a late 1800's weapon. It still stands up to a lot of modern firearms!
I like the part about volley firing them at 3500 yards. Can you imagine it raining 500 grain bullets?

petemi · « **Reply #42 on:** December 15, 2008, 09:50:16 AM »

First off, the .45-70 is not just "a 100 yard yard rifle". Two weeks ago I dumped a buck at 220 yards. Bang Flop. I shoot Hornady LEs, 325 gr., 2050 fps, in a Handi Rifle, out to 300 yards. I'm working to push that to 500. I weigh 150 lbs at 68 years old, with arthritis, and have no recoil problems at all. My 386T .30-30 kicks as hard. In fact I think it kicks a little harder with the straight grip.

As was previously stated, you won't fall apart at 60. Get the .45-70, shoot it and enjoy it, and thoughts of recoil will become a distant memory. I think if you wear good ear protection on the range, your felt recoil will be a lot less. I think what we register as recoil, is in a large part muzzle blast. Hold it in tight, squeeze slowly, let the shot surprise you. It is so simple they even allow wives and daughters to do it.

Good shooting,

Pete

deernhog · « **Reply #43 on:** December 15, 2008, 12:29:11 PM »

I like my marlin cowboy with the mid loads or lower. Accurate to 160 yrds. I have no need for a .45-70 to do more. I have the 7mm Rem mag or .243 to shoot any flatter. The 7mm actually kicks harder than the Marlin cowboy even with a straight stock.

daddywpb · « **Reply #44 on:** December 25, 2008, 07:40:55 AM »

I have a 45/70 Guide Gun, and recoil is, well......substantial. Very EASY solution. Limbsaver recoil pad. They come ready-fit for Marlin models and turn range time from a short painful trip to shooting all afternoon. They are amazing. Turned my .350 Rem Mag into a cuddly fuzzball.

Coyote Hunter · « **Reply #45 on:** January 06, 2009, 03:24:43 AM »

Quote from: czvz on November 28, 2008, 04:20:22 PM

O.K. my esteemed friends, I'm convinced... I will get one by next November... Which one? What type of accuracy can I expect from the 1895 Guide gun vs the 1895 rifle? Can the Carbine shoot minute of white tail out to 200 yards? What is the going rate on the carbine and rifle?
Thanx CZVZ

Mine is a 22" 1895 and Ive hunted one year with it in 2004 or thereabouts. Took a mule deer at a lasered 197 yards and the next day took a 6x6 bull elk at a lasered 213 yards. Both animals were on the ground with the first shot. Have never seen a deer lose so much blood so fast - looked like someone had sloshed blood out of a bucket. The bull just stood there and, as I was getting ready to trip the hammer a second time, just fell over. Both shots were behind the shoulder and meat loss was minimal.

By the way, I'll be 59 in March. Recoil of top loads can be ferocious but there is no need to go there. My handloads run from 7 foot-pounds recoil (300-350g hardcast over a few grains of pistol powder for ~1100fps) to 48 foot-pounds recoil (460g hardcast at 1812fps). My hunting loads are full speed 350g North Forks for around 38 foot-pounds with scope mounted. I shoot the plinkers more than anything (as do my girls), but they are all fun.

Redtail1949 · « **Reply #46 on:** January 11, 2009, 06:17:40 PM »

As stated by others in this thread, "MILD TO WILD" just about sums it up. The factory rounds made to be safe in the trapdoors are pretty mild but they are effective killers of all game at resonable ranges..(that being a range you can make a shot and hit the kill zones) I personaly would take an Elk with the gun out to 300 yards open sighted.

I have one and have used it on bear deer and elk with the open sights and the factory loads taking every animal cleanly. Now I handload full power loads for it and when I shoot them up I will load the new Hornaday Soft Rubber Pointed bullets in it.

As has been said you could load it down lower than the trapdoor round is and have a mild recoiling yet effective killer. Probably best to take you shots within 150 yards .

Enjoy the rifle you will love it

Tackleberry · « **Reply #47 on:** January 25, 2009, 06:14:50 AM »

I have a 1895 Cowboy in .45-70 and with Blackpowder or Black powder substitute loads (777 or pyrodex), with 405 grain soft lead bullets the recoil is very very manageable. More like the before mentioned shove rather than a sharp kick.

Now, I loaded some 300 grain jacketed hollowpoints for hunting pushing velocity towards 1800 fps and the recoil I found to be distinctly unpleasant. I am a big guy (265lbs) with huge hands, and while the rearward force of the recoil was not really unmanageable, I found that the lever beat my fingers up pretty good with the hot loads. Also, It was pretty difficult to hang on to the forend (The Cowboy is not checkered).

I have not played with these loads since, however, for hunting loads I have acquired a large ring lever and Guide gun forend (with checkering), and butt stock (with pad!!)

It's an easy changeover when I want to look more traditional. IT is cheaper than another rifle like the guide gun which is set up better for heavy loads.

Dave

Hank08 · « **Reply #48 on:** January 25, 2009, 06:54:32 AM »

Hey Tackleberry, I was also a Navy AG from 1950 til 54 in Jacksonville and Pensacola then went with the USWB and the AEC.
I have 6 45/70s, my favorite is the Marlin Cowboy. I like the Hornady 350 FP for a jacketed bullet but usually shoot cast, 420 gr. at 1400, very accurate and that load can be shot even in a trapdoor. Actually the load you mentioned 300 @ 1800 is the same as the Remington factory load and is OK for the trapdoor.
Blackhawker, 3198?

Did you mean 4198?
H08

Hank08 · « **Reply #49 on:** January 25, 2009, 06:56:50 AM »

Forgot to mention, I'm 77 and have no problems with recoil with any 45/70.
H08

Tackleberry · « **Reply #50 on:** January 27, 2009, 06:39:34 AM »

Hank08 hi fellow weather guesser!!! I don't shoot smokeless in either of my trapdoor rifles, I shot Remington factory out of it and I believe cracked the receiver as a result. so now I only handload with 777 or Pyrodex or Black powder..

Dave

jeager106 · « **Reply #51 on:** January 27, 2009, 02:32:43 PM »

I'm 62.
Have three 45-70's.
If you can sit at the bench, shoulder, aim and fire a 12 gauge load of 1 1/4 oz. shot you can shoot a 45-70 with very heavy loads.
My favorite is the Mark 2 with 26 inch oct barrel, 4 X Weaver scope.
Accuracy is 1.5" or less at 100 yards.
Yoou can load still 300 grainers and blow deer into the next county, 350's for bigger black bear, and 400 or 405's for anything else or just cause you want to.
One 45-70 I asmit I simply can NOT handle.
I got a deal on a new Super 14" Contender barrel.
Not having ever owned the Contenders I put it on a frame, scoped it with a 1 X 4 Burris, used 405 Remmies loaded to the gills for the long rifle and liked to have kilt myself!!!!!!
Holy cow crap fellas THAT HURT!. Drew blood too!
Soooooooo, not being very bright I bought a pair of PAST sisy gloves, put on a left and right carpal tunnel wrist brace, used the same ammo and like to have split my head open!
Blew the sissy glove on shot #5. Ripped 'em at the seams.
I went to a Centender board with my tale of woe.
I got beat up pretty good for being stupid.
Taking good advice I bought some SR4756, 300 grain boolits, mild loaded to 1600 and lo and behold and rather stiff shooting but managable hand cannon.
I put to rig together to ambush bambi from a tree stand so I'm quite sure a 300 grainer at 1600 will flatten the critter quick like.
I now Own a 45-70 Contender carbine, 23 " load it down a tad, not because of recoil but I don't want to spring the action of my cute little carbine.

DCmauser · « **Reply #52 on:** April 08, 2009, 03:22:42 PM »

RE: Where did the extra 5 grains (45-70-405) come from....(why not an even 400)?

Since the 45-70-405 was a government development at Springfield Armory, perhaps civilians/military folks there figured that since they reduced the bore size (50 cal) of the 50-70-450 by 10%, then maybe they might have (at first swag) tried reducing the bullet/ball weight by same factor of 10% - a nice round number. [50 -10% = 45 and 450 - 10% = 405]. I would be just speculating of course.

Halwg · « **Reply #53 on:** April 09, 2009, 03:51:36 AM »

Remember Elmer Keith? He was the high priest of the big bores, and he looked to be 100 years old and was still shooting 458 winchesters, 460 Weatherby Mag, and a whole host of other nasty recoiling rifles. Didn't seem to bother him.

gstewart44 · « **Reply #54 on:** April 09, 2009, 08:37:48 AM »

I don't notice the recoil from factory 405gr loads at all. My heavier/faster handloads for hunting punch pretty well until I got a Limbsaver recoil pad. Nw its all gravy. Oh yeah I am just a few years in front of 60.

Ole Man Dan · « **Reply #55 on:** June 04, 2009, 04:58:59 PM »

Quite a number of 'US' old men, own quite a number of 45/70s. I'm 62 and feel deprived because I only own and shoot 3 45/70s. NEF, Marlin 1895, and a Uberti 1885 Reproduction Highwall.
I guess I'm lucky cause all of my 45/70s shoot well with 405s, 300s ect... I shoot 'Hard Cast' and recoil is what I make it.
I haven't shot any of my 'modern' bolt actions for a while. I'm having too much fun loading/shooting 45/70.
(Most of my hunting is inside 150 yds in tight cover and my old guns with iron sights work just fine)

dpe.ahoy · « **Reply #56 on:** June 04, 2009, 05:14:09 PM »

Several years ago I got a 45-70 Marlin with a cresent butt stock and found a good buy on PMC +P ammo with 350gr bullets. I gotta tell ya, that sucker hurt!

I shot the thing for a year or so and finally sold it and the remaining 8 boxes of ammo. Kinda put me off the 45-70, but I got a Handi in 444 Marlin and liked it. Then I gotta 444P Marlin and love it, so after reading how much other Handi owners like their 45-70's, I got one too. So far I've run 3 boxes of Rem 405's and 1 box of Win. 300's thru it and I really like it. Moral is, don't load er up to much and get a good pad, Limbsaver being the best, and you will have found a new sweetheart.

DP

Blowtorch53 · « **Reply #57 on:** June 08, 2009, 11:45:18 AM »

If you buy regular Remington, Winchester, etc. factory ammo...no problem. Pussycat!

If you buy something like Buffalo Bore (Strictly Big Bore, Strictly Business)...big problem!!!

No other cartridge that I know of is loaded in such a wide array of power levels than the .45-70.

Blowtorch

filmokentucky · « **Reply #58 on:** June 08, 2009, 02:55:33 PM »

I'm 63+ and my favorite rifle is a sporterized Trapdoor. It weighs a bit over 7 pounds and I use blackpowder re-loads in it. A full 70 grains of FFg and a 450 grain bullet make an accurate and powerful load. Recoil just is not a problem. I like to get as close as I can, but this is not just a 100 yard rifle. If I had to, it is capable of reaching out much farther.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #59 on:** July 06, 2009, 01:16:11 AM »

4570s are in the must reload to appreciate catagory. I load loads anyhwere from a 340 and 3 grains of bullseye (recoils like a .22) to 405s at 1900fps (rattle your fillings)