Author Topic: Are these ARs REALLY THAT COMPLICATED and involved to learn? (Read 3400 times)

Graybeard · « **on:** November 27, 2008, 06:59:33 PM »

I mentioned awhile back I got a book on ARs by Patrick Sweeney and have almost completed reading it. I'm not going thru from front to back but rather selecting the chapters of primary interest first and then moving to the next of most interest more or less.

Tonight I finally got around to the chapter on bolts and carriers and I gotten tell ya I'm more lost now than I ever was before. I don't even know what the heck I read it was kinda like Greek to me.

Do you really break bolts as often as he lead me to believe? Do I really need as many replacement parts as he said? How dang often do these things need to be cleaned anyway and how? Geez I'm not sure I'm smart enough to own an AR after reading the book.

Victor3 · « **Reply #1 on:** November 27, 2008, 09:33:31 PM »

Although I'm not into them, I've helped friends fix (probably why I'm not into them

) and customize a few. They're a bit complex compared to older designs, aint they? They also seem a little cheesy if you're used to M1 Garands/Carbines or other older autos.

Guys I know who swear by them don't seem to mind the fiddling and fixing they always seem to be doing. They remind me of my kid playing with his Legos; always taking this piece off and puting another piece on, looking for the ultimate creation. They sure look like a great hobby gun. Guys I know just can't seem to "set & forget" the things. Seems like a new and improved doo-dad for them comes out every week.

Having shot several different nice ones though, I can see the fascination some have with them. A good friend of mine has about the shortest/lightest configuration you can get, and it's pretty amazing what it can do with a .223 round in such a tiny package. Always brings a smile to my face when I get to shoot it.

Old Syko · « **Reply #2 on:** November 28, 2008, 04:37:32 AM »

Bill they're as simple or as tough as you want them to be just like most any other firearm I've ever owned. The only guys I know of that break parts are the ones like Victor3 mentioned that are obsessed with constantly changing and fiddling with the latest and greatest parts and pieces available. Unlike those guys, I'm not into tinkering with the things. I'm into shooting them instead. My favorite has sent more rounds downrange than most would believe if I told them the number, and has never had a part of any kind fail other than the nut behind the trigger.

Keep in mind that the guys who write the books in part make their living from the manufacturers in one way or another. The more exotic things can be made to appear the more money can be charged for simple things.

As far as cleaning goes, clean it just like you do any other firearm you own. Just keep it simple and don't let the self made authorities influence change on things you already know. It ain't rocket surgery.

Totenkopf · « **Reply #3 on:** November 28, 2008, 06:26:00 AM »

On cleaning your bolt it just depends on what you are feeding it and how much you shoot. Let's say you feed it wolf ammo, that is the dirtiest I have heard of. You may want to clean it every 100-200 rounds. When the bolt blows back a little unburnt powder kicks into the action and bolt. Usually a good bit of solvent and a toothbrush will be all you need. Sometimes you will have to get a tiny scraper and clear the channels, but nothing fancy, just remove carbon build up then follow with solvent and brush.
http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/GunTech/NewsletterArchive.aspx?x=v&p=0&t=1&i=866
http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/GunTech/NewsletterArchive.aspx?x=v&p=0&t=1&i=891
Don't get sucked into believing that you have got to have brand x part or your rifle won't function correctly. It seems a lot of folks follow the notion of believing the more you spend the more reliable it is.
In combat I had one hangup. We were all down to a mag or less unable for resupply. We infiltrated a bunker which had Russian 5.56. Through the coarse of the night 6 of us had the same problem. The primer unseated and fell in the trigger mechanism jamming the weapons. As for breakage, never had one. Did carry a kit to fix in case, but never happened. I do now follow the same principal of having a few extra parts on hand, just for convenience, never had to replace though.
When people start mixing and matching lower receiver components they are asking for trouble. This design has been perfected over it's near 50 year design. Parts are designed to wear and mesh at a standard rate. Let's say you want an aftermarket trigger. The trigger may be harder material than the sear. If you remove a tiny portion of an AR sear it is 2 or 3 shots. A semi is not designed for this. So the harder trigger wears out the softer sear then the weapon starts malfunctioning. Also Ar's have tight tolerances if you do not clean the bolt I'm sure there is a chance of interior parts failing eventually. As for a well maintained rifle. They are designed to function far beyond the life of what we can afford to feed them if properly maintained.

cjclemens · « **Reply #4 on:** November 28, 2008, 07:53:01 AM »

I have a friend that believes in a truly low-input maintenance program for his rifles, including his AR. That being said it's generally a few thousand rounds before his gets cleaned, yet it fires the first time and every time. I will never understand why, but some people would have us all believe that AR's are all unrelaible and near impossible to maintain. From what I have seen, AR's are just as dependable as any other platform available. Keep it cleaned a oiled like you do with therest of your rifles and it will never fail you.

SharonAnne · « **Reply #5 on:** November 28, 2008, 09:11:33 AM »

having known Sweeney back in the 80s I am sceptical of his writings. When I first saw his name in print my first thought was "what the h--- is journalism coming to?" He was a night DJ on a small station. He tinkered with 1911s and AR15s. Now he is an authority? OMG! Maybe he has changed. Maybe he has learned. I have. Maybe he really is a gunsmith. Much can change in 20 yr. Just because of history I have not purchased that AR15 publication. Did I miss something? My AR15s have never broken a bolt, or anything else for that matter. I am on my 4th AR15. I sold 2 because of financial hardship, the 3rd I sold because I had one set up by Accuracy Speaks and didn't need 2 ARs. Sadly I had to sell that one also. I have not reloaded 5.56, preferring to shoot Malaysian ball purchased in 820 rd cans. It was under $200 a can then. That too has changed.
My current AR15 has about 2k rd through it with no problems. Ran a brush through it once in a blue moon. A couple of drops of oil about the same frequency. It just keeps on working.

mannyrock · « **Reply #6 on:** November 28, 2008, 02:25:25 PM »

Well Geez,

This is really interesting. My entire life, I have never even considered getting an AR, because everything I have ever read in gun rags, and on boards, and in on-line articles have said that if you have an AR, they have to be kept scrupulously clean, and they are hard to take apart and re-assemble for cleaning, and that they are finicky, and that parts break. On top of that, all I ever read on the boards are postings from guys who are constantly taking them apart, replacing pieces, fiddling with them, "improving" them, complaining about them, drooling over them, discussing jams, etc. etc.

I am over 50 years old, and I doubt that I have ever put more than 500 rounds through any rifle I have ever owned. Don't shoot matches. Don't sit at benches firing box after box after box. Don't reload. When I get a new rifle, I mount the very best possible rings and scope I can afford, sight it in, and then leave it alone. Only use it to hunt, or occasionally plink at cans for fun. I clean only what needs to be cleaned, and when it needs to be cleaned.

Regards, Mannyrock

cjclemens · « **Reply #7 on:** November 28, 2008, 06:46:46 PM »

I havent been around long enough to be an expert with AR's Ive had one for about 5 years, and it's been my regular go-to gun for coyote hunting and general target shooting. I probably run about 1000 rounds through it yearly at the very most. for coyotes and plinking, I use the cheap steel cased Wolf 62 grain JHP's. Sure, they leave a little more fouling behind than quality ammo, but they work damn well. When it comes to cleaning, I just pop the rear pin open, and pull the bolt out, clean the barrel and bolt, oil the bolt to make sure it moves easily, and slap it all back together. I would think that's all there really is go a regular cleaning. AR's are NOT as complicated or finicky as some say. Wether its just plinking, hunting, or even when your life depends on it - the AR just works.

darrell8937 · « **Reply #8 on:** November 29, 2008, 03:42:43 AM »

Yes they are hard to clean. Just ask a soldier.. Not so much for the function of the rifle but for the "all seeing eyes of you drill instructor". But that is another story. we were required to dissasemble the bolt every time we fired it. you have to do this on the floor or on you bed or whereever.. no nice table or anything like that. The bigest problem was small parts getting lost.. We were tought that too muck cleaning shortned the barrell but were required to excessivly clean the barrell,, you figure it out cause I sure can't.

Totenkopf · « **Reply #9 on:** November 29, 2008, 06:59:55 AM »

The main misconception of having a squeaky clean AR 15 was bread out of Vietnam. There was a multitude of problems with the platform at that time. Cleaning was drilled into the soldiers heads to fix the problem of jamming. Whether fired or not it was advised to clean the firearms each night due to the jungle humidity. Soldiers also only ran 16 rounds in 20 rd mags to try to combat jamming. As I have read the jamming issue was never straightened out in the Vietnam war era. I do not shoot an absorbanent amount of rounds through an AR. I generally clean once or twice a year. This is just a maintenance faze I do with all my weapons to ensure they don't rust. The most I ever heard was a range AR at Fort Bragg that went 23,000 rounds before jamming. This was a full auto, not 3 shot rifle. The rifle was cleaned, and would not hit anything due to the eroded throat. A new barrel was placed on it and it was once again utilized.

S.S. · « **Reply #10 on:** November 30, 2008, 01:14:17 PM »

The jamming issue has never been straightened out!

Totenkopf · « **Reply #11 on:** November 30, 2008, 05:42:16 PM »

S.S. you are incorrect with that statement.

Explorer1 · « **Reply #12 on:** November 30, 2008, 05:51:43 PM »

IMHO they are little different than a 1911, you can buy one and shoot it or you get get involved in tricking one out with all the latest and greatest trinkets.

I have owned 8 to date, the only one I hade problems with was the 7.62x39 as it was just after they introduced them - the magazine issue had not been resolved. Hav yet to break a single part, had one that I used to keep the benchrest boys watching me and somewhat concerned that I was doing much better than any semi- auto should. The latest pistol is not a hunting or target tool but serves the purpose of upsetting my anti-gun Senators!

Today I treat the 3 I have like any of my other guns, meaing they don't get cleaned as often as they should and as long as I feed them the correct ammo they go bang as desired.

rex6666 · « **Reply #13 on:** December 01, 2008, 07:08:28 AM »

Not trying to hijack the topic BUT, how do the Ar's compair to the Springfield
SOCOM i looked at a SOCOM and it just fit me a lot better, i know it is
not the modern rifle so to say but it felt more like a rifle than any AR i have every picked up. I know next to nothing about either, but just felt more comfortable with the SOCOM. Does the SOCOM come 223 or just 308?

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #14 on:** December 02, 2008, 02:13:10 AM »

just 308

fastbike · « **Reply #15 on:** December 02, 2008, 07:41:21 AM »

I have a Rock River and an Olympic. Both have several thousand rounds. I clean every 500 - 1000 rounds or when I feel like it. 30 minutes to clean if I'm taking my time 15 minutes for a quick job. The bolt can be disassembled for cleaning in a couple of minutes. This is the fiddliest part. These guns have not jammed on factory ammo (Win, Rem, S&B, Fed) or handloads. I haven't fired Wolf steel case so I don't know if thats a difference, but both rifles have been reliable. No jamming or misfires. Less trouble to take this bolt apart than a Mauser.

Quote from: Graybeard on November 27, 2008, 06:59:33 PM

I mentioned awhile back I got a book on ARs by Patrick Sweeney and have almost completed reading it. I'm not going thru from front to back but rather selecting the chapters of primary interest first and then moving to the next of most interest more or less.

Tonight I finally got around to the chapter on bolts and carriers and I gotten tell ya I'm more lost now than I ever was before. I don't even know what the heck I read it was kinda like Greek to me.

Do you really break bolts as often as he lead me to believe? Do I really need as many replacement parts as he said? How dang often do these things need to be cleaned anyway and how? Geez I'm not sure I'm smart enough to own an AR after reading the book.

jmayton · « **Reply #16 on:** December 09, 2008, 05:02:02 AM »

Crap, after reading this, I guess my dust, mud, and pig blood covered Colt that hasn't been cleaned in several months should be sitting in the safe with several broken parts, an eroded throat, and numerous other maladies. I guess I should go buy some expensive parts, clean the rifle meticulously and install the new parts...just so I can break them or grow tired of them or just want more and then go buy those.

Nahh, I'll just keep shooting it.

radio2 · « **Reply #17 on:** December 10, 2008, 08:18:42 PM »

Well all I can say is my Bushmaster M4 a3 AR-15 that I got this year has had no problems, 30 round magazines and 100 round magazine .
I have about 600 rounds thru it and no problems. Cleaned once and that took awhile as I was not fermilure with it. But after that first cleaning, No big deal, I love this rifle!

SharonAnne · « **Reply #18 on:** December 10, 2008, 08:53:43 PM »

magazines,magazines, magazines. repeat they are MAGAZINES!

Omaha-BeenGlockin · « **Reply #19 on:** December 11, 2008, 02:03:25 AM »

Not all that hard at all----I've built 4 or 5? complete AR's(both uppers and lowers) just using the instructions on AR15.com---the Bushmaster video---and the GI Service Manual. This was using stripped uppers and lowers and bags of parts.

Run it wet with Break Free--and I mean dripping wet----and you'll be fine.

jmayton · « **Reply #20 on:** December 11, 2008, 04:27:15 AM »

If anyone needs a lesson in cleaning an AR, I'll let my buddy, a former Marine, give you a lesson. He can strip, clean, and reassemble my AR faster than I can clean my Handi Rifle. There's really not that much to clean when you get down to it.

And SharonAnne, you're right, clips are what my daughter puts in my hair. Magazines are what lay next to my toilet...and go in my guns.

darrell8937 · « **Reply #21 on:** January 02, 2009, 11:12:53 AM »

Fastbike..
AS far as the mauser bolt cleaning.. you must be refering to recocking that darn spring so it can be inserted into the rifle. That is a pain(literly). I don't shoot corossive ammo so cleaning is less frequent! Been thinking of making some sort of tool to make it eaiser. Maybe I can make a million!...... NOT!!

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #22 on:** January 03, 2009, 03:04:03 AM »

id bet that 90 pecent of all the jams associated with an ar15 can be traced back to cheap magazines or cheap or poorly loaded ammo. Feed them good ammo and use a good mag and there as reliable as any other battle rifle made. Id bet a dime to a dollar that if we would have had good mags back in the vietnam days the whole opinion on these guns today would be differnt.

darrell8937 · « **Reply #23 on:** July 16, 2009, 01:35:07 PM »

first build, flawless, 200 rounds..Happy camper!

wreckhog · « **Reply #24 on:** July 24, 2009, 04:50:39 AM »

I feel that you need to breakdown the bolt, clean, soak it in CLP, and reassemble it every day you come back from shooting. Takes 2-5 minutes depending on how much scrubbing you do. The rest of the gun does not need cleaning though it is nice to scrub the barrel and chamber once every thousand or so rounds. That eliminates FTF and FTE issues. Soak the bolt in CLP. Dry is BAD. If you shoot a thousand rounds every time you go to the range, soak the bolt every 500 and at the end of the day, clean it completely. The gun is supposed to run several thousand rounds with no hiccups. Does anyone ever fire a thousand rounds in another centerfire? Rarely.

wreckhog · « **Reply #25 on:** July 24, 2009, 04:57:20 AM »

To break down an AR search youtube. You will find vids of very young children doing it in about 1 minute.

buckweet · « **Reply #26 on:** September 25, 2009, 06:53:15 AM »

howdy bill !

i know this is an older thread.. but boy did you tickle my funy bone !!
i thoughts the same thing as you did . before i traded into my AR,
its been many many years, since i've even picked one of those up.
and ya'ed think i'ed remember what they taught us in boot ? it was like trying to remember what ya had for breakfast 6 years ago on the 6th of june...
i was a total blank .
till i went to iraq..... and watched the army boys in our group, clean their weapons, wow !! speed of light, !!
they even let me play with their weapons, and showed me how simple they are to field strip. then the light bulb came back on...
sooo... i had to gets one. mine is a bushmaster m4, and over the years have shot it, a zillion times, never ever failed,[note'; i use good ammo]
super eazy to clean , and i run mine ''wet'' with clp. not gobbs dripping, but wet,
only thing i DONT like about it is, the sights. mine is the carbine, and im getting a few years on, and caint see the durn things so good anymore. fantastic sights for a battel weapon, but what good are they when ya caint see em ? so..... after much thought and expiramenting [sp] lol,
and after shooting my buddy daves rifle, [longer sight radius] i could see them again. eureka !! so. being broke and no money, and destiute,,,

and search the earths 4 corners, i ''find the perfect AR rifle/carbine'' the colt model 605 , what bushmaster calls the dissipator. rifle length hand guards and rifle length sights, handy, accurate, and lots of real estate to hang on to.
did you gets one ?
i've ordered the mid-length gas barrel, 16'' incher, and the full length hanguards, cannot wait to try ''jenny'' out !
p.s.
and even then, i know someday i'll haves to gets a scope, but no problem, mines flattop.

buckweet

Graybeard · « **Reply #27 on:** September 25, 2009, 11:31:20 AM »

Hi Buckweet, I actually ended up with three and a half of them. I got a pair of the Bushmaster made Remington R15s a Charles Daly M4 and an Armalite complete lower which I've yet to add an upper to.

I think it's highly likely I'll be moving out one of the Remington R15s either for cash or on a trade. I kinda want to get back into skeet shooting again but unless I get surgery on both shoulders first I probably shouldn't. If I do go back to it I'll likely get a Browning Citori White Lightning .410 to shoot so could use the R15 as trade material or just sell it for cash to set aside for use on the purchase price.

I guess all told I've not yet shot 100 rounds thru the three combined.

buckweet · « **Reply #28 on:** September 25, 2009, 12:18:36 PM »

hi bill. ya i wouldnt mind getting another lower, and build from scratch......
but ? life gets in the way. oh well...someday.
[wanting lightweight rifle] better gets those shoulders fixed first... trust me, i tore my right shoulder up, and waited too long, now it hurts everyday.all day long.
read my post about trying for a clone ''look'' of the colt model 605, im having a blast planning it out, and researching, the history, and learning about mid-length gas systems...
as it usaully happens in my world.my ar will probly be the only one i'll ever be able to afford !!! haha !!
but still thinkin ? she should be the perfect ar rifle, for me.

weet

Graybeard · « **Reply #29 on:** September 25, 2009, 12:52:46 PM »

I did read that post but have no clue what a Colt 605 is.