Author Topic: 12 ga slug gun?  (Read 843 times)

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Offline ncpreacherboy1

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12 ga slug gun?
« on: November 29, 2008, 02:59:15 PM »
the website has the barrel listed with the 12ga/44 mag combo as 28" long. is this correct?  because the barrel on the ush is only 24". any info will be appreciated.

http://www.hr1871.com/Firearms/Combos/handislug.asp

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: 12 ga slug gun?
« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2008, 03:07:35 PM »
Just another typo on the website, the 2008 catalog lists it as 24".  ;)

Tim
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Offline Markus

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Re: 12 ga slug gun?
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2008, 02:43:46 AM »
I'd like to see a 28" sug barrel offered though.
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Offline ncpreacherboy1

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Re: 12 ga slug gun?
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2008, 04:52:18 PM »
me too. :) :)

Offline petemi

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Re: 12 ga slug gun?
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2008, 08:58:50 AM »
Can I ask "Why 28 inches??"  I would think you'd want it short and fast swinging for woods work.
Keep both eyes open and make the first shot good.
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Offline jjas

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Re: 12 ga slug gun?
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2008, 09:34:59 AM »
Can I ask "Why 28 inches??"  I would think you'd want it short and fast swinging for woods work.

I would ask the same question.  Modern powders offer little (if any) advantage with a longer slug barrel and slugs are so slow coming out of the barrel that a longer barrel can be attributed (according to some experts) to lesser accuracy due to the recoil of slugs pulling the shot off target before it leaves the barrel.


Offline petemi

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Re: 12 ga slug gun?
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2008, 09:40:54 AM »
That's kinda what I was thinking.
Keep both eyes open and make the first shot good.
The growing Handi/Sportster/Pardner/Topper Family:  .22 WMR, .22-250. 223, Two Superlight 7mm-08s and one .243, .30-30,  .308, 32-20, 18 inch .356/.358 Win., Two 16.5 inch .357 Max., 18 inch 38-55 BC Carbine, 16.5 inch .445 Super Mag., .45LC, 16.5 and 22 inch .45-70s, .50 Huntsman SS, .410, 20 ga., 12 ga., 20 ga. Pardner Pump, Versa-Pack .410 - .22
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Offline striker525

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Re: 12 ga slug gun?
« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2008, 10:31:42 AM »
Can I ask "Why 28 inches??"  I would think you'd want it short and fast swinging for woods work.

I would ask the same question.  Modern powders offer little (if any) advantage with a longer slug barrel and slugs are so slow coming out of the barrel that a longer barrel can be attributed (according to some experts) to lesser accuracy due to the recoil of slugs pulling the shot off target before it leaves the barrel.




wouldn't this be the case with every gun out there???? I'd like to see ballistics for both barrels before I could say whether it would be a good idea or not. Even so 28" would be a little long, 26" I think would be about the max length I would ever want (only if it helped in the ballistics dept). But then again I'm happy with the 24". ;)

Offline petemi

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Re: 12 ga slug gun?
« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2008, 11:30:33 AM »
I've got a 22 inch .410 Pardner that shoots slugs like my .357 Handi.  I don't see a need for a longer barrel.
Keep both eyes open and make the first shot good.
The growing Handi/Sportster/Pardner/Topper Family:  .22 WMR, .22-250. 223, Two Superlight 7mm-08s and one .243, .30-30,  .308, 32-20, 18 inch .356/.358 Win., Two 16.5 inch .357 Max., 18 inch 38-55 BC Carbine, 16.5 inch .445 Super Mag., .45LC, 16.5 and 22 inch .45-70s, .50 Huntsman SS, .410, 20 ga., 12 ga., 20 ga. Pardner Pump, Versa-Pack .410 - .22
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Offline jjas

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Re: 12 ga slug gun?
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2008, 11:41:43 AM »
Can I ask "Why 28 inches??"  I would think you'd want it short and fast swinging for woods work.

I would ask the same question.  Modern powders offer little (if any) advantage with a longer slug barrel and slugs are so slow coming out of the barrel that a longer barrel can be attributed (according to some experts) to lesser accuracy due to the recoil of slugs pulling the shot off target before it leaves the barrel.




wouldn't this be the case with every gun out there???? I'd like to see ballistics for both barrels before I could say whether it would be a good idea or not. Even so 28" would be a little long, 26" I think would be about the max length I would ever want (only if it helped in the ballistics dept). But then again I'm happy with the 24". ;)


If by every gun out there, you mean slug guns, a longer barrel is nothing more than a hindrance from both a usage standpoint and accuracy standpoint.  The small (if any) gains you might make in fps would more than be offset by the pull of the slug's recoil pulling you off target.  This is the reason for the "hard hold" shooting technique for slug guns that Randy Fritz of tarhunt slug guns recommends when shooting off the bench for accuracy.  It's a great read on their website @ tarhunt.com

Jim

Offline Badnews Bob

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Re: 12 ga slug gun?
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2008, 01:35:01 PM »
striker, Not all claibers act the same when you shoot them, Heavy slow moving rounds take longer to leave the barrel than a faster lighter round, With a large slow bullet or slug a longer barrel will let the muzzle climb higher before the bullet clears the barrel so a shorter barrel allows you to stay on target better. (allows improved follow thru) with lighter recoiling rounds its not as much of a problem.
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Offline striker525

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Re: 12 ga slug gun?
« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2008, 08:47:19 AM »
striker, Not all calibers act the same when you shoot them, Heavy slow moving rounds take longer to leave the barrel than a faster lighter round, With a large slow bullet or slug a longer barrel will let the muzzle climb higher before the bullet clears the barrel so a shorter barrel allows you to stay on target better. (allows improved follow Thru) with lighter recoiling rounds its not as much of a problem.

BUT recoil doesn't happen UNTIL the slug leaves the Barrel. I know difference between the calibers and how it effects shooting. I'm just saying that a 28 inch barrel , while it would be a maneuverability handicap would probably add to the overall accuracy of a slug gun. Depending on where the complete powder burn distance is. It would also add to the ability of the shooter to hold on target better. IE the 45/70 Buffalo Classic 32 inches compared to 22 inches.

I'm not saying that anyone is wrong or that I am right. I am just stating that there are optimal barrel lengths for every caliber. Now whether 22,24,26,28 is optimal for a 12ga slug gun I don't know without something to compare them by. I guess it would also depend on Rifling too. 

Offline dpe.ahoy

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Re: 12 ga slug gun?
« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2008, 08:52:38 AM »
Recoil starts the instant the powder ignites and the bullet starts to move, the old "opposite and equal reaction" thing. ;)  DP
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Offline striker525

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Re: 12 ga slug gun?
« Reply #13 on: December 04, 2008, 09:05:33 AM »
Recoil starts the instant the powder ignites and the bullet starts to move, the old "opposite and equal reaction" thing. ;)  DP

but felt recoil or the recoil that makes the muzzle jump does'nt happen until the bullet or slug exits from the barrel, otherwise you would see all the guns in these Cop shows recoiling everytime they pulled the trigger. They don't because there is nothing leaving or exiting the barrel.

Offline skifastchad

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Re: 12 ga slug gun?
« Reply #14 on: December 04, 2008, 09:40:59 AM »
Have you ever actually handled a 12ga USH handi?  Not just in the gun shop, but carry one around?  If it were 28" you'd need wheels on it or maybe a pack mule to walk alongside you.   ;D

Offline Markus

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Re: 12 ga slug gun?
« Reply #15 on: December 04, 2008, 09:53:29 AM »
The barrel inthe combo doesn't appear to be an ulta barrel.. The only reason I would like it is for the feel. My TDC barrel is 28" My 20ga topper is 28", 16GA as well. The barrel length just feels right to me. I have a 22"12 ga that I carry when woods walking and such but for hunting I just like the feel of 28" barrel. I'm 44 Now and have hunted with a 28" barreled 20ga topper since I was 8. That's a lot af familiarity.
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Offline striker525

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Re: 12 ga slug gun?
« Reply #16 on: December 04, 2008, 05:43:28 PM »
Have you ever actually handled a 12ga USH handi?  Not just in the gun shop, but carry one around?  If it were 28" you'd need wheels on it or maybe a pack mule to walk alongside you.   ;D

I have a 12ga Ultra light TH. That is what I am using as a comparison to my Mossberg 12ga with a 28" field barrel shooting both 2 3/4" and 3" magnum slugs. I think that 2-4 inches on that barrel would actually improve the gun in both accuracy and balance. But thats just my opinion! As far as the longer barrel adding to the recoil it actually lessens it.

Offline NFG

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Re: 12 ga slug gun?
« Reply #17 on: December 05, 2008, 08:15:46 AM »
Not to get a major Hookah going, but physics is physics and recoil is recoil...no matter what you call it.   ???

Recoil begins the instant the bullet/slug begins to move and builds over time as the propellent burns, producers gas and increases the velocity of the projectile.  The amount of propellent is also considered in the equation...no matter what the bullet weighs, if the powder charge in one load is lighter than the powder charge in another load, the lighter charged load will have less recoil.  One may have a quicker recoil velocity and is perceived to hit harder, but that has to do with a persons subjectivity not physical actuality...the "perceived" recoil is more in one than in the other...that has to do with the "recoil velocity in f/s" as against the "ft/lbs of recoil".  Any good recoil calculating program will give you both numbers.

Whether you call it "felt recoil" or something else doesn't really matter...it is still recoil and acts differently depending on many factors such as barrel length(added weight to the gun), weight and velocity of the projectile, burning rate of the powder, fire arm weight, shape and drop of the stock (straight, pistol grip, thumbhole etc) how the rifle is fired (sitting on a bench, offhand, sitting etc), the recoil sensitivity and perception of the person, and previous conditioning, just to name a few.  You can't just generalize "this against that"...you get into comparing apples and eggplant.

The problem is in the understanding of all the parameters and the verb-ology used to describe the actual phenomenon.  Most people understand recoil is getting slapped around...the bigger the cartridge, the bigger the bullet, the "hotter" the load means more recoil.  Not understanding the minutiae is where all the arguments get started...that and having to be "right" and defend your "position" at all costs or being unwilling to take another look under different circumstances.

I shoot lots of different light and heavy calibers including pistol, shotguns and rifles of all shapes and sizes including an NEF BC I re chambered to 45-100, and I have a USH arriving in the next few days.  I've shot most of the several brands of factory slugs plus 12GA slugs from 1 oz to almost 3 oz (437 gr to 1400 gr)...my own 12 GAFH loads, in several shotguns of different barrel length, rifled and smoothbore.  I guarantee each one shoots identical loads to different points of impact, different velocities and different levels of recoil.

If you go about testing the different loads under controlled conditions with some semblance of order, you can see first hand what happens by how the slugs impact the targets...there is no "by guess and by golly".

Otherwise discussions get all screwed up with extraneous BS and turns into nothing more than a school yard tussle...doesn't answer any questions and more likely confuses the H*** out of everyone.   >:( :( ??? ;D

One other thing to consider...my BC at 32" is only 1" longer than my 24" 416 Taylor with MB and my 26" 338-06 without a MB...the BC weights 11# and the other two weigh 10# each...I don't have any problem hauling them around...of course my 5.5# 7mm-06 is much easier to haul around and has much less recoil...the 416 at 2400 fs with 350 gr bullet is around 41 ft/lbs, 16 f/s velocity and the 7mm with a 140 gr has half the ft/lbs of recoil but has 15 f/s recoil velocity.  If I considered the recoil velocity only there wouldn't be much difference in the two and I could argue like **** to make a good case that there wasn't much difference in the two, but I think we both agree that argument is total BS...apples and eggplants, don't you agree.

Offline wanderer

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Re: 12 ga slug gun?
« Reply #18 on: December 05, 2008, 09:48:09 AM »
Recoil starts the instant the powder ignites and the bullet starts to move, the old "opposite and equal reaction" thing. ;)  DP

but felt recoil or the recoil that makes the muzzle jump does'nt happen until the bullet or slug exits from the barrel, otherwise you would see all the guns in these Cop shows recoiling everytime they pulled the trigger. They don't because there is nothing leaving or exiting the barrel.

The guns on the cop shows don't recoil (much) because there is no projectile. The only mass moving forward is the powder gases. The gases have very little mass, so there is so little recoil that it is not noticeable.

The physics behind recoil is quite simple. If the gun is locked when fired (like a bolt action or a Handi) the gun has the same momentum as the bullet and powder charge combined until the bullet leaves the barrel. Momentum is equal to velocity x mass.

In terms of a math formula:

(mass of rifle) x (velocity of recoiling rifle) = (mass of bullet) x (bullet velocity) + (powder gas velocity) x (mass of powder gas)

So, even without doing any detailed calculations, we can see that if the bullet is moving in the barrel, the rifle must also be moving.

Regarding the muzzle jump, the thing that causes the muzzle to rise is also quite simple to understand. When you shoot, the bore line of the barrel is above the point where the butt stock rests against your shoulder. Now think of a wrench on a bolt. If you put the wrench on the bolt so that the wrench is vertical and pull straight back on then end of the wrench, the wrench turns. Now, let's say you welded a rod perpendicular to the wrench handle. As that wrench turns, the rod begins to tilt upward. The same thing happens when you shoot a rifle, because the breech is perpendicular to the barrel. And it happens as soon as the bullet starts moving, just like dpe said.

Now, while physics is great, it doesn't take into account all of the things that influence felt recoil, as NFG said.


Offline Troyboy

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Re: 12 ga slug gun?
« Reply #19 on: December 05, 2008, 01:07:40 PM »
Wow! I think my head is about to explode ??? ??? ??? ???
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