Author Topic: Why Magnum? (Read 5610 times)

Bart Solo · « **on:** November 29, 2008, 10:39:56 PM »

I was just reading an article by Chuck Hawks (http://www.chuckhawks.com/muzzle_brakes.htm) about the effectiveness of muzzle brakes. There is no doubt that they work, but as anyone who has fired a rifle equipped with one will tell you, magnum muzzle blast might be more of a problem than magnum recoil. A number of African countries forbid their use while hunting citing hearing loss among guides. For the same reason a lot of American guides are refusing to guide people who use muzzle brakes. Hawks says there is an easy solution:

The best answer to the muzzle brake question is simply to avoid calibers that generate more recoil than you can comfortably tolerate. Then you will never need a muzzle brake. Try this. Instead of a .264 Win. Mag., buy a rifle in .260 Rem. or 6.5x55. Instead of a .270 WSM or a .270 Wby. Mag., buy a .270 Winchester. Instead of a 7mm short magnum, buy a 7mm-08. Instead of a standard length 7mm Magnum, buy a .280 Remington. Instead of a .300 short magnum, buy a .308 Winchester. Instead of a standard length .300 Magnum, buy a .30-06. And so on. See, it's easy. You can hunt the same animals and avoid having to make a choice between being kicked out from under your hat or being deafened.

Here is a question for you. If magnum recoil is punishing, muzzle brakes are deafening and standard calibers can do the job, why do we buy magnums in the first place?

john keyes · « **Reply #1 on:** November 30, 2008, 12:08:34 AM »

Nilgai?

targshooter · « **Reply #2 on:** November 30, 2008, 02:30:16 AM »

I have purchased two magnum chamberings; the .338 Win Mag and the .375H&H. I purchased the rifles because I perceived the need of their performance levels for planned hunts. Both represent my ceiling for recoil in the rifles for which they are chambered. I chose the rifles with their scoped weight balanced to the amount of recoil, and it works. The .338WM system weighs 1 lb less than the .375 H&H system. I have never purchased a rifle with a muzzle break except for a Marlin 1895 GG that was only available with its ports. Recoil is not reduced by the muzzle break, it is controlled as the the recoil is redirected. I have never felt the need for this, but it seems to work for some shooters, so they purchase the option. Many seem to do this to reduce the weight of the shooting system to one they are comfortable carrying. I have noticed at the rifle range that such rifles are unpleasant to the people next to them when fired. If some guides have found them to be objectionable, this option will need to be considered by the rifle purchaser/user. I have seen many non magnum rifles sporting muzzle breaks, and they do make the sideline noise worse in calibers such as .270 and .30-06 to name two non-magnum calibers I've seen in ported rifles. For me, a test of the effectiveness of a muzzle break would be to shoot the .416 Rem Magnum, a caliber that possesses recoil far above my tolerance level. I'll pass.

Badnews Bob · « **Reply #3 on:** November 30, 2008, 03:24:47 AM »

Magazines.

Dave in WV · « **Reply #4 on:** November 30, 2008, 03:38:06 AM »

IMHO over 50% of magnum chambered rifles are sold to folks that don't need them. The big rage now seems to be long range shooting at game. While the large bears can be taken with a 30-06 a .338 or more powerful would seem prudent.

lilabner · « **Reply #5 on:** November 30, 2008, 09:42:42 AM »

You will make few friends shooting with a muzzle brake at the range. Some hunting guides will not take hunters using brakes because they fear permanent hearing loss. Magnum rifles are useful tools for hunting large, angry animals that want to tear the hunter limb from limb. As mentioned, flat trajectories and high energy retention are advantages, provided that the shooter does not fear the rifle and can shoot well and place his shots accurately with it. Second hand magnums are usually good buys, because they haven't been shot very much by the former owners. If hunting the big bears or the African cats or buffs is planned, a magnum is the answer.

charles p · « **Reply #6 on:** November 30, 2008, 10:22:22 AM »

People get obsessed with SPEED. We read how speed creates a flatter shot and a higher energy shot. Hunters and shooters vision killing game way out there beyond the effectiveness of normal cartridges.

I've been shooting about 40 years and discoverred a lot of obsessions. First there was the rapid fire obsession for fast follow up shots at running game. I was cured by a few nice bolt rifles, then the magnum speed and energy obsession bit me. Then is was the smaller caliber obsession, then the custom made rifle obsession, The TC pistol obsession, and finally the lightweight rifle obsession. There was ultra quality scope obsession about the time of the custom rifle obsession. I think I forgot the stainless and fluted barrel obsessions. I haven't yet caught the laminated stock obsession or the 460 S&W revolver obsession, but I recognize the symptoms.

There is no immunity to these compulsions. You can have them more than once in a lifetime.

mannyrock · « **Reply #7 on:** November 30, 2008, 10:38:15 AM »

We are curious and selfish little chimps, with an extremely high ability to spot and differentiate between the most minute items (based on color, size, weight, apperance, taste, feel, etc.), and we become almost instantly obsessed with any new minutia. These were extremely helpul traits when we lived in trees in the jungle, but extremely hurtful traits in the modern marketplace. Thus, the Magnum craze.

mannyrock · « **Reply #8 on:** November 30, 2008, 10:50:50 AM »

P.S.- I read a very interesting Article many years ago, by John Wooters, who observed that the ONLY thing that a magnum really does is to give you approximately 100 yards of extra killing range over the standard caliber. For instance, the 7 Mag gives you an extra 100 yards over the .280 Remington, the 300 mag gives you an extra hundred yards over the 30-06, the .270 WSM gives you an extra hundred yards over the .270

Since 98% of all hunters cannot even hit a medium size game animal at the maximum range of their regular caliber rifles, the addition of the "extra 100 yards" of range offered by a magnum is sheer stupidity. And the trade off is a much heavier gun, much greater noise and recoil, and much more expensive ammo.

The sole exception is if you have to break down a charge by a big grizzly or similar animal, which not one in 10,000 hunters will ever have to do.

The gun rags are in the business of pandering new guns to us, based on male hunting fantasies, which they promote and foster.

Dand · « **Reply #9 on:** November 30, 2008, 10:58:45 AM »

Excellent post and one to seriously ponder. Charlesp you had me laughing and seeing myself a little bit. But in MY case I have a 300 Win Mag because I live in moose and brown bear country, I used to hunt on the Alaska Peninsula and Kodiak where there are REALLY BIG brown bears. While a 30-06 is plenty much of the time, I found my range estimating ability was poor on the tundra. With the 300 win mag, if it looks close enough I just hold on. I might have made 1 shot at 300 yds but most around 100. And right after I got the gun it seemed all the animals showed up at 40-60 yds! But it is a comfort to have some full tilt Nosler 220 partitions with me when I bump into bears. And there have been a couple times where I was wishing I really had the .338 Win or even a 375. I know a few folks who hunted moose for years with a 30-06 then went to the 338. They feel the 338 saves them some tracking and packing - seems to drop the moose quicker. And like me- they feel better armed with a magnum if a bear decides to visit. I spent 6 months pondering 30-06, 300 Win, 308 Norma, 338 Win, 35 Whelen before I had my gun built. For me the 300 Win strikes the best balance among them - but sometimes at the range or at the end of a long hike, a light weight 30-06 sounds appealing. With current powders and bullets the older mediums have come up several notches in performance. A 338-06 still teases me to get back on obsession track but ammo availability holds me in check. Oh and I don't really hunt the brown bears and haven't ever shot one - might one day if the opportunity presents itself.

Tom W. · « **Reply #10 on:** November 30, 2008, 01:48:22 PM »

I have a 7mm Rem Mag, altho there aren't any creatures in Alabama that I "need" it for, but I like the rifle, it's accurate, and shoots well. The same for my 30/06 A.I. The parent cartridge is plenty, but I wanted an A.I. chambered rifle. As for recoil, I haven't noticed it being at all bad, but I did install LimbSaver Recoil pads on both of the rifles. The noise isn't an issue, as I wear amplified muffs when I shoot that deaden the noise at the shot. People that say a shot or two with a ported rifle ( or any firearm ) without hearing protection are just fooling themselves.

nomosendero · « **Reply #11 on:** November 30, 2008, 02:06:35 PM »

To me, if someone needs to ask this question, then they do not have a need for a Magnum. I have a use for one on a few occassions & then I use 'um. Most people don't, but many serious hunters do.

SDS-GEN · « **Reply #12 on:** November 30, 2008, 02:08:11 PM »

If someone feels the need for a magnum (I have a 300win that I love), instead of getting a muzzle break or porting the barrell, get a rifle that is a couple of pounds heavier and a well made stock with a good recoil pad. Then practice with it to get used to heavier recoil.

One Eye · « **Reply #13 on:** November 30, 2008, 02:30:02 PM »

Because I can.

I currently have a Winchester M70 Classic in 300 Win Mag. This is my second 300 Win Mag, as I previously owned a Ruger M77 in the same caliber. I bought the M70 because it had the BOSS system and I wanted to get a CRF M70 to see what that was all about. The BOSS is also a muzzle brake, or acts similar but I did not buy it for those qualities. I wanted to taste the barrel tuning abilities of the BOSS.

The gun is very loud if you are off to the side of it, but I don't stand off to the side when I shoot. Recoil is significantly less than my Ruger M77 was, but this is not an issue as I have been shooting this caliber for over 25 years now and the recoil has never bothered me. I have shot deer and bear with it from 10 yards to 400 yards and it works great for all of these applications.

I am now getting interested in different calibers (i.e., 7MM-08, 6.5x55, .260 Rem, 7x57, etc.) I simply love all guns and buy those that interest me. I could care less what others shoot or what a magazine writer thinks I should shoot.

Shoot whatever you like for whatever reason you like it.
Dan

michaelt454 · « **Reply #14 on:** November 30, 2008, 03:24:55 PM »

I like to have all the power, range, velocity, energy, projectile weight etc. available to me that I can possibly stand to shoot, muzzle breaks raise the level at which these cartridges become uncomfortable to shoot therefore I love em'. Some subscribe to the school of small and fast, some to big and slow, me, big and fast. All of these "magnum" cartridges were invented out of neccesity not to see how many shots it takes to deafen your guide. Why would you take a 300 win mag hunting and leave a 300 weatherby at home? because it might be too deadly? For hunting? Shooting is an inherently loud event take ear plugs or a game ear or cotton balls. Don't leave a more effective caliber at home on the count of muzzle blast.

Bart Solo · « **Reply #15 on:** November 30, 2008, 04:52:33 PM »

I think mannyrock's 100 yard observation is about right. A magnum gives you about 100 extra yards over its non-magnum counterpart. Since most hunters can't shoot well enough to take maximum advantage of the range available to the standard calibers what is gained by the extra 100 yards?

Here are a few questions for the magnum shooters. How often do you practice with your magnum? I will grant you that your rifle is good enough to shoot a very far piece, but do you believe you are really able to safely use all that extra range? What about your hearing? I have read that people who shoot or are around magnums with muzzle brakes are told to wear earplugs in addition to their regular earmuffs.

Tom W. · « **Reply #16 on:** November 30, 2008, 05:29:46 PM »

I practice with mine regularly, and can shoot it as far as I need to, but where I hunt 250 yards is about the maximum shot that I'll ever have...

At the range I don't use the electronic muffs, just a set of Peltor Ultimate 10 muffs. When I had my .480 revolver and my 30/06 Encore pistol I used plugs and muffs at the range, and the electronic muffs in the field. Muzzleblast and noise has a lot to do with flinching, bad shooting, and perceived recoil...

Explorer1 · « **Reply #17 on:** November 30, 2008, 05:57:42 PM »

Why not? Americans exceeded need a LONG time back, we are always looking for something better.

Now having said that, I have sold off most of my magnums and am relearning that shot placement is more important. While there is only one version of dead, a magnum will do the job at a longer distance. However, maybe 2% of the folks carrying them can take advantage of the extra capablity.

Bottom line, we are all victums of our lifestyle, better is better and we don't have enough time to do what we want as often as we need to in order to be better than average at it.

But hey, it keeps people employeed!

Don Fischer · « **Reply #18 on:** November 30, 2008, 06:00:42 PM »

I've had three magnums, 7mm Rem and 2 338 Win. I had them because I precieved a need for something that would handle the biggest bullets in a given cal. They do that wel but a chrushing blow came when I discovereed that not only would standard cartridges handle the same bullets more than well enough for most hunting conditions but the heaviest bullets aren't usually needed anyway. I never owned a 300 Win but considered it the king of long range shooting when using the 200gr bullets. Well I've discovered that longe range shooting is much more about really shooting and not so much about a couple inches difference in trajectory.

I think the biggest reason for the magnums is the american attitude that bigger is better, reguardless of how misstaken the belief might be. Look at the new cartridges that seem to be going to make the cut, all are called magnums, the 260 Rem seems to be dieing on the vine. If the 30-06 were announced today for the first time, I doubt it would survive.

Spanky · « **Reply #19 on:** November 30, 2008, 07:00:44 PM »

Quote from: Don Fischer on November 30, 2008, 06:00:42 PM

If the 30-06 were announced today for the first time, I doubt it would survive.

Alot of people would disagree with that.
The '06 is likely one of the best cartridges ever developed.

Spanky

IOWA DON · « **Reply #20 on:** December 01, 2008, 01:10:49 AM »

Noise and recoil are not just magnum problems. I worked all summer out of the 8th grade lifting hay bales and got enough cash to buy a model 99 Savage in .243. I had some magazine articles by one on how shorter barrels ere the way to go and how the .243 was about as good as a .270. However the author was comparing the advertised ballistics of a .243 with a full length barrel to the ballistics of a .270 with a 150-grain round nose bullet. I fell for the unfair comparison and got the Model 99 with a 20-inch barrel. My dad did not hunt or shoot and I did not know anything about using ear protection when shooting. The blast from the 20-inch barrel was terrible. I occaisionaly flinched when shooting it. A friend a few years older had a .30-06 and I told him how much flatter shooting the .243 was than his rifle. We did some 400 yard shooting across my dad's field and found out that in actuality his .30-06 with a longer barrel shot flatter than my .243. The next summer all my savings from hay work went into replacing the dissapointing short barrel .243 with a 7MM Weatherby Magnum with the heavier 26-inch barrel. I immediately tested it to see if the trajectory was a flat as advertised, and it was. Also, with its longer barrel the muzzle blast was not as bad as the .243. I was then 15 years old but recoil was not a problem and the longer, heavier barrel made it easier to hold steady in an offhand position. I got a .338-.378 Weatherby Magnum for an Alaskan moose hunt eight years ago. It had a muzzle brake and was very loud, but recoil was not bad. It was their Accumark model, but was not accurate. I had the barrel replaced with a heavier 28-inch Shilen barrel and now it is accurate and has a lot less muzzle blast. I use it for long distance deer shooting and it works great, but kicks a lot! I do my practice shooting with other rifles. I think I would develope a flinch if I did a lot of practice with that rifle. I don't flinch with the little bit of checking sights I do with this gun and I don't flinch when shooting game, and I hit what I am shooting at. Anyway, I think one is more apt to develop a flinch doing a lot of shooting with a high recoil rifle rather than lots of prctice with a high recoil rifle enabling him to get good with it. I think flat-shooting magnums are an advantage in the field for longer shots, but if one wants a caliber for lots of shooting at the local rifle range get a 7X57 or a .308 and get one with a longer heavier barrel.

Swampman · « **Reply #21 on:** December 01, 2008, 02:41:05 AM »

IMO the need for a magnum starts with the .375 H&H. If you hunt game big enough to need a .375 H&H, then you need a magnum. In North America you probably don't.

If I were a guide for the larger bears, I'd have one.

Coyote Hunter · « **Reply #22 on:** December 02, 2008, 03:59:03 AM »

Quote from: Ron Byers on November 29, 2008, 10:39:56 PM

…
Here is a question for you. If magnum recoil is punishing, muzzle brakes are deafening and standard calibers can do the job, why do we buy magnums in the first place?

Here’s some reasons I have magnums in the stable :

In this case we spotted the elk over a mile away, coming off the hills in the distance. The closest point of approach would have been about 500 yards and I had one of my .30-06s in my hands. Some yahoo on the next hill over (not in the picture) started banging away and turned the herd (I lost count at 8 shots). As a result I had a shot at 25 feet but passed and took one at 25 yards.

Here’s my buddy glassing for deer. Any shots would have been long ones. Plenty of antelope there, too, out of season and 500-600 yards away and unapproachable without trespassing on private land.

We’ve taken a number of elk from this area. Have passed on many shot opportunities of 500 yards and greater.

Here’s another reason I have magnums in the stable: Because I can. Same reason I have a muzzleloaders and leverguns in .30-30, .375 Win, .44 Mag and .45-70. Then of course, there’s the .257 Roberts, .308 Win and three .30-06s.

At the moment I have a new Interarms Mark X action that I will be building a rifle on. The most likely chambering will be a wildcat - .375 Ruger necked down to .338. Case capacity will be right at 105 grains and performance should exceed that of the .340 Weatherby. This will be my 700-yard elk rifle, but if I choose I can always load it down to .338-06 or even .338 Federal velocities.

Again, the reason is “Because I can”. No other reason is needed.

Coyote Hunter · « **Reply #23 on:** December 02, 2008, 04:23:09 AM »

Quote from: mannyrock on November 30, 2008, 10:50:50 AM

…
Since 98% of all hunters cannot even hit a medium size game animal at the maximum range of their regular caliber rifles, the addition of the "extra 100 yards" of range offered by a magnum is sheer stupidity.
…

While I agree that the marksmanship of the majority of hunters is in a sorry state, magnums do more than add extra range – they also hit harder at closer ranges (which sometimes creates additional problems if impact velocity is inappropriate for the bullets that are used).

By the way, comparing a .30-06 and .300 Win Mag with 180g Partitions, the additional range is typically 20-40 yards if the metric used is bullet drop but can easily exceed 125 yards if the metric is retained energy.

Quote

And the trade off is a much heavier gun, much greater noise and recoil, and much more expensive ammo.

As a reloader, there is very little difference in ammunition costs between my .308 Win, .30-06s and .300 Win Mag – the difference primarily resulting from the different amounts of powder used. My Remington .308 win, Ruger/Savage/Remington .30-06s and my Ruger 7mm Rem Mag weigh almost exactly the same. My Ruger .300 win Mag, with its synthetic stock, weighs the least of the bunch. The “much heavier gun” you are talking about is mostly a myth unless you are talking the really long magnums with calibers greater than .308”.

Also a myth is the “much greater noise and recoil” of magnums. I would challenge you to identify my Ruger .30-06 or .300 Win Mag by sound alone, and some of my 7mm Rem Mag loads have LESS recoil than my .30-06 loads.

Bart Solo · « **Reply #24 on:** December 02, 2008, 05:52:53 AM »

Coyote Hunter, Of course you buy the magnum because you can. The question is why would you?

I disagree with your claims concerning both noise and recoil. I don't see many muzzle brakes on 30-06 rifles but they are common on big magnums. If they didn't have punishing recoil people wouldn't spend the extra money to buy the muzzle brake. The muzzle brake is what causes the noise problem for folks standing behind the rifle. I don't know about you, but in my experience I find it easy to identify the big magnum with the muzzle brake. Maybe your hearing is already gone.

Do you practice with your magnums as often as you should? As is mentioned above magnums are often great bargains on the used rifle market because they are rarely used.

dukkillr · « **Reply #25 on:** December 02, 2008, 07:59:42 AM »

I can't speak for everyone, but... I HATE EVERYTHING NEW!

I hate magnums. They kick. I hate smokeless powder, it kicks. I hate black powder, it kicks. I hate cars, trucks, and gasoline engines, they make too much noise. I hate modern medicine, it makes me too comfortable (real men get small pox and polio and they like it).

I hate computers, pens, phones, TV, and expecially the internet.

But you know what I really hate the most? When people use something I don't like...

Casull · « **Reply #26 on:** December 02, 2008, 08:31:36 AM »

Quote

Again, the reason is “Because I can”. No other reason is needed.

And no other reason usually exists. I think that is the whole point of the thread and the article referenced.

Coyote Hunter · « **Reply #27 on:** December 02, 2008, 08:57:34 AM »

Quote from: Ron Byers on December 02, 2008, 05:52:53 AM

Coyote Hunter, Of course you buy the magnum because you can. The question is why would you?

Why not? The recoil of my “magnums” is less than some loads in my 12 gauge shotgun or my muzzleloaders and even my Marlins in .45-70 or .375 Winchester, neither of which are considered a “magnum”.

The recoil doesn’t bother me, I sometimes want the extra range, and since I can always load them down to non-magnum performance if desired, they are more flexible. My first .300WM handloads, in fact, were .308 Win equivalents. But the .308 Win or .30-06 cannot match my 180g loads for the .300 Win.

Quote

I disagree with your claims concerning both noise and recoil. I don't see many muzzle brakes on 30-06 rifles but they are common on big magnums. If they didn't have punishing recoil people wouldn't spend the extra money to buy the muzzle brake. The muzzle brake is what causes the noise problem for folks standing behind the rifle. I don't know about you, but in my experience I find it easy to identify the big magnum with the muzzle brake. Maybe your hearing is already gone.

Some people buy muzzle brakes because they don’t care for the recoil. Others refuse to get the brakes because they see them as unnecessary and don’t want to deal with the increased noise. I’ve seen brakes on non-magnums as well as on magnums.

I don’t really care what other folks do, but I won’t own a rifle with a muzzlebrake. Calculate the recoil for a 7mm 140g bullet and then for a .30-06 with a 168-180g bullet and you’ll see what I mean about recoil.

My hearing is fine but then I double up on hearing protection at the range – plugs and muffs.

Quote

Do you practice with your magnums as often as you should? As is mentioned above magnums are often great bargains on the used rifle market because they are rarely used.

Just how often “should” I practice with my magnums? Or the non-magnums that generate even more recoil like the muzzleloaders and the Marlins ion .375 win and .45-70?

I practice often enough, with my favorite targets being the steel gongs at 500 and 600 yards and clay pigeons at 400 yards. Of course I do that with my non-magnums, too. Usually I take a mix when I go to the range.

In aggregate I shoot the non-magnums more, but I also have more of them.

John R. · « **Reply #28 on:** December 02, 2008, 09:01:08 AM »

700 yd. elk rifle!!!. Will any responsible guide even let you shoot at an elk that far off? Why not get a Barret 50 BMG and you could shoot at them @ 1500 yds.

Swampman · « **Reply #29 on:** December 02, 2008, 09:29:20 AM »

"Personally, I see no need to upgrade the power of the 30-06 by increasing its speed. I have long held that if you want more power than is available in the 30-06, you do not want more velocity, you want more bullet. Three cartridges that might really use additional velocity are the 308, the 350 RM, and the 458, since each of these is hampered by a case capacity too small for optimum ballistics. (John Gannaway can indeed achieve full velocity in the 350 RM, but only by loading up to the point where the cases are not re-usable.)"

Jeff Cooper