Why Magnum?

[Coyote Hunter]

I don't use guides and wouldn't consider such a shot unless conditions were perfect and I had proven myself ready with a lot of practice.  I'm already comfortable out to 600 yards in good conditions with my .300 Win Mag.

  CH just before you became a Moderator here then quit you posted some picture taken on a guided cow elk hunt from one of the sponors here if I'm not mistaken.

Roper –

You have a very good memory.  Yes, since 1982 when I started big game hunting I have used guides on exactly three occasions  -- all recent -- but in each instance was hunting with Colorado Ranching for Wildlife licenses on ranches where:
a) the guides were REQUIRED by the ranch, and
b) the guides were provided FREE of CHARGE even though I only paid normal resident license fees (under $50 for elk, less for antelope).

The three hunts were on Three Forks Ranch (2006, cow elk), Snake River Ranch (2007, cow elk) and Kiowa Ranch (2008, antelope).  At Three Forks the guide was with us the entire time but at Snake River the guide basically took us to a general area, pointed out the property boundaries and left us, especially on the first day where we hunted the north side of the ranch.  The second, third and forth days we hunted the south side of Snake River in the mornings and the story was basically the same – on days two and three we followed the guide to a drop-off point in our truck and the guide left.  The last day the guide came back to our truck several times and was around when my hunting buddy spotted some elk, one of which I was later able to take.  In other words, not much guiding was being done on that ranch although they were keeping track of where the hunters were.  In 2006 we planned to hunt deer, unguided, but an emergency at home ended the hunt at dawn on the second day.  In 2007 we hunted both deer and my buddy’s elk without the aid of guides.   In 2008 I again hunted elk and deer without a guide.

You can read about the Three Forks and Snake River hunts here:
Three Forks : http://www.coyote-hunter.blogspot.com/
Snake River http://coyote-hunter-2007-elk-hunt.blogspot.com/

No guides were used in any of the other elk, deer or antelope hunts since I got started in 1982, and I have hunted all but one or two years.

So, yes, technically you are correct, I have used guides.  I much prefer not to, however, and have yet to contract for or pay for guide services. (I did tip for help packing out on Three Forks.)

I also followed your post here and on 24hr camfire about how you and fellow members of your gun club could ban a shooter from shooting by a simple vote of member present if that member had a muzzle brake and you all didn't like the noise.  Since your gun club requried  all member to be NRA members I did question how that ban and a NRA members rights under the  Second Amendment worked.

If you followed that argument a little more closely what you would have seen is that my argument was this – in accordance with the then posted rules, any member could call a cease fire at any time – for any reason.

The club also requires (or at least did)  that members using brakes notify other members on the line (this requirement may have been published in the newsletter but not posted at the range, I don’t recall).  There have been several instances of which I am aware where hot ejecta (unburnt powder and/or bullet shavings) from the brakes was hitting other shooters on the line.  In at least two of these occasions a cease fire was called until the problem could be solved.  In one case the shooter simply put the offending rifle away, in the other the shooter moved to the end of the line.  In both cases the problem was not noise but rather the safety of others present.  In one case I was the victim and called the cease fire after being hit several times.  Another instance of a problem with a brake involved a .50BMG shooter where the blast from the brake was blowing ammo boxes off the adjacent tables.  I don’t know that a cease fire was called but a discussion was had with the shooter and the Barrett ended up at the end of the line.  In each case the problem was not noise but rather the safety of other shooters.

I don’t deny people the right to use brakes, don’t really care one way or another.  But if they do use brakes their rights end when their actions impinge on the rights of others to a safe shooting environment.

[Bart Solo]

Coyote Hunter,

Well written response.  Good job. 

[nomosendero]

"A few years back a woman I worked with excoriated me for buying a Ford F250 Diesel, the primary usage for which would be to commute 60 miles one way to work.  She thought I should buy an econocar.  (She was from Boulder, go figure.)  Like an econocar would tow my boat on weekends or my camper during hunting season..."

How did you handle $4.00 per gallon gas? 

You are right.  You are free to do whatever the heck you want.  If you can afford something buy it. 

I started this thread because I wanted somebody to give me a real reason to buy a magnum.  I have come to the conclusion that a magnum might be useful if I lived in the open prairie, but in my part of the country a shot over 100--150 yards yards is rare.  All the same I see guys going into the woods with their magnums loaded for 120 pound deer. 

The comment that the average guy doesn't shoot a box a year so what does it matter is interesting. Frankly as a guy who walks around in the woods during deer season, I want every person carrying a rifle or shotgun to be as good a shot and as calm a hunter as possible. That takes practice. Maybe the average guy would shoot more than a box a year if he enjoyed shooting at the range.  Maybe he would enjoy his trigger time if he didn't suffer from shoulder pain much of the following week.  I could be wrong but I think we should be encouraging every hunter to practice.   Maybe fewer guides would end up with rust on their hoods.

"I started this thread because I wanted somebody to give me a REAL reason to buy a magnum."  WHY?
Nobody can give you a reason if you don't have a reason. Trying to manufacture a reason (from an application standpoint) from others is neither doable or logical for others to attempt.

I am not trying to be cantankerous in any way here, just trying to understand. "But in my part of the country a shot over 100--150 yards is rare." No reason for a mag there, I would feel fine with my 45-70, a 358, Whelen or a good shooting 30-30 in those ranges. "But in my part of the country', well if that's MO, then we are talking about Whitetails,
there are Hogs in parts of MO, maybe where you hunt, maybe not & you don't have a Bear season, so the size of the animals don't call for it & frankly at under 150 yards I would hunt anything in NA with a Whelen, 9.3X62, 45/70 & others
with the right loads & bullets. In other words, neither the range (150 yards) or the animals (Whitetails) call for a Magnum by any conceivable stretch of the imagination. And with that undeniable fact, for anyone to even want to
try to "convince" you a mag should be used would be a real head scratcher & I speak as an occassional user of Magnums, but for practical reasons.

Now if a guy just wants to, or just wants to own one, that's another story. There's nothing wrong with buying a Corvette & just looking at it in a garage & the same is true of fine rifles.

[Bart Solo]

nomosendero

Why are you all so defensive? This has been a good discussion up tell the last few posts, but you all have gone totally defensive. I haven't tried to insult you. Why make this personal? There is no reason to be cantankerous.

[nomosendero]

nomosendero

Why are you all so defensive? This has been a good discussion up tell the last few posts, but you all have gone totally defensive. I haven't tried to insult you. Why make this personal? There is no reason to be cantankerous.

Why are you? I said I don't mean to be cantankerous & I am not. Nothing to be defensive about on my end. It is an OK discussion I guess, but my questions are basic, straight forward with no malice.

If what I said doesn't make sense, please explain why so that I and others can understand.

I will ask you directly. If you have no application, why should anyone try to convince you of something you have no need for? I believe I would be doing a disservice. I don't know how to ask the question in any way that is more practical. Whether anyone likes Magnums or not has no real importance to me at all. I would like to see a practical & kind response, an answer to the question instead of a personal attack.
Thank you

[Bart Solo]

If I have a need for a magnum I will buy one. So far I don't see the need.

I have to tell you that if all buyers approached rifle selection they way they approach buying most tools 1/2 of the major manufacturers and nearly all of the custom shops would go out of business.  There is a whole lot of marketing hype driving the magnum market. That is why people get magnum fever.

[nomosendero]

I agree 100%, you clearly have no application for a Magnum.

And correct, there is some emotion involved in buying guns, similar to cars sometimes. And some go for the hype, as in cars, boats etc. However, I view guns as a tool for a purpose or application & buy the chambering with that in mind. i guess that's why I have never had this "magnum fever" I have read about, even though I use a magnum on some occassions & maybe a little nicer gun than necessary.

Good shooting!!

[Coyote Hunter]

If I have a need for a magnum I will buy one. So far I don't see the need.

I have to tell you that if all buyers approached rifle selection they way they approach buying most tools 1/2 of the major manufacturers and nearly all of the custom shops would go out of business.  There is a whole lot of marketing hype driving the magnum market. That is why people get magnum fever.

Ron –

OF COURSE there’s a lot of marketing hype – that’s what the marketing people get paid to do!  It’s the same for many products, not just firearms.  And yes, the hype sways many people.

Not sure I’ve ever known anyone with “magnum fever”, though.  Many of my friends shoot magnums, but I can’t think of anyone that has a magnum that doesn’t also have non-magnums as well.

Also, the hype doesn’t discount the fact that various cartridges really do have advantages, depending on what you are looking for.  Never went for the short mags myself, preferring full-length magnums and non-magnums in the shorties, but I have no problem with folks buying the short mags if that’s what suits them.

I get by just fine with my .257 Roberts, .30-30, .308 Win, .30-06’s, .375 Win and .45-70, but when I want to add some range or add a little extra thump I’ll reach for my 7mm RM or .300WM.  Love them ALL.

[jro45]

I have found that recoil happens when sitting at the bench and shooting and thats when I use my brake. When not at the bench I remove my brake. I have two rifles that have brakes all the others don't.
Standing and shooting the recoil is very little.

[Bart Solo]

I have found that recoil happens when sitting at the bench and shooting and thats when I use my brake. When not at the bench I remove my brake. I have two rifles that have brakes all the others don't.
Standing and shooting the recoil is very little.

What you report is what most shooters experience. This side of an elephant gun felt recoil isn't a problem when in the field.  I have shot my little Remington Special Field 870 12 gauge all day while bird hunting without a care or a pain. Of course, my shotgun has a good recoil pad and I use a padded hunting jacket.

Sitting at a bench is a different story.   

Anybody know why felt recoil experienced at a bench is often more than that experienced in the field. Is there something about sitting that enhances recoil or is the impression related to the hunter's outward focus. 

[grvj]

...someone once said that the point of advertising is created to make you/us feel what we already own is not as good as what is new & improved!

After considering all the posts, I feel Magnums have their place in long range hunts and in big caliber/big game situations. At least that is where I would consider them.

I just have not been bit by Magnum-itus need though would not be put out if someone gave me a 300 H&H at a good price!

[Todd1700]

IMHO over 50% of magnum chambered rifles are sold to folks that don't need them

Here in Alabama I'd say the percentage is even higher than that.

I think the biggest reason for the magnums is the American attitude that bigger is better, regardless of how misstaken the belief might be.

You got that right. Bigger is very often not better. If hunting rifles were hammers there would be an awful lot of people out there driving ten penny nails with a 12lb sledge hammer. You can make that work I guess but I'll stick with a standard claw hammer myself.

If the 30-06 were announced today for the first time, I doubt it would survive.

Sad but probably true. Even though the 30-06 is more than enough cartridge for the game being hunted by and the shooting abilities of the vast majority of people in the lower 48 states.

Alot of people would disagree with that.
The '06 is likely one of the best cartridges ever developed.

I don't think he was attempting to insult the old tried and true 30-06. And you are right it is a great round. It's just that with the magnum marketing craze in this country right now the 30-06 might not be sexy or exciting enough to make it as a newly introduced round.

Not sure I’ve ever known anyone with “magnum fever”, though.

Then you're lucky. It is an epidemic here in Alabama. One example; I switched jobs and started to work at a new hospital about 5 years ago. A guy who worked in the ER at the new hospital ,although a real nice guy, lived with his head constantly in a gun rag on slow nights at the hospital and ate every word of it up like it was manna from heaven. He had already been seduced by the short mag craze and had a 300 WSM. But He wasn't fully pleased with it and was in the process of looking for the best price he could find on a 338 magnum. I asked him, "What are you hunting for... Elk, Brown Bear?" Nope, just Alabama deer but he wanted something that would put them down right there every time and apparently the 300 WSM wasn't getting the job done for him. Then he launched into a regurgitation of some gun rag article espousing the mega foot pounds of energy the 338 magnum delivers at every feasible range. Well it took weeks but I convinced him not to get the 338 mag and a good thing too. The first time that I took this guy to our family gravel pit prior to one season to check the zero on his 300 WSM he was flinching so bad from the recoil of it that he could barely shoot minute of loose leaf note book paper at 100 yards. I can only imagine how much more the 338 would have opened up his groups. Minute of barn door maybe? It took me several years to get him over this Magnum Fever but now he is using a 7mm-08 and his marksmanship is vastly improved. Sadly the first part of his story is far from rare in these parts however even though the typical mature buck probably weighs no more than 170 lbs and the average shot distance is less than 100 yards.

If you can accurately shoot a large magnum and it's what you want, then hey it's a semi free country. Knock yourself out as it's certainly none of my business what you shoot. But as to the question "Who needs a Magnum?" I would answer as follows.

1. Anyone hunting large dangerous game animals

2. Anyone hunting in a place where they could round a curve in the trail or a bend in the creek and find themselves at close range and in danger from a large dangerous animal like a grizzly.

3. People who hunt wide open ranges where long range shots are common (400 yards and up) "AND" who have practiced enough to be consistently proficient at those ranges.


But the number of people who fall into one or more of those categories pales in comparison to the number of people carring a big stomper magnum rifle.

[Coyote Hunter]

...
If you can accurately shoot a large magnum and it's what you want, then hey it's a semi free country. Knock yourself out as it's certainly none of my business what you shoot. But as to the question "Who needs a Magnum?" I would answer as follows.

1. Anyone hunting large dangerous game animals

2. Anyone hunting in a place where they could round a curve in the trail or a bend in the creek and find themselves at close range and in danger from a large dangerous animal like a grizzly.

3. People who hunt wide open ranges where long range shots are common (400 yards and up) "AND" who have practiced enough to be consistently proficient at those ranges.

But the number of people who fall into one or more of those categories pales in comparison to the number of people carring a big stomper magnum rifle.

Fortunately we live in a country - at least for now - where the only reason a person needs is that they WANT one. 

While I hunt in a lot of open country where shot opportunities can be very long or gone, I've never taken a shot that my .308 Win couldn't have handled.  Nevertheless a 7mm RM was my carry weapon for 20 years and during that time I always had an itch for a .300WM - an itch I finally scratched several years back.  Neither of those magnums recoils anywhere near as much as my non-magnum .45-70 or my 12 ga with either turkey or slug loads.  For that matter, recoil from the 7mm RM with 160’s at full throttle is on a par with a .30-06 and 180’s, a very popular combination.

 By itself, the term “magnum” really doesn’t describe what the recoil levels are or even indicate what ballpark they are in.  The .257 Weatherby, pushing 100g Partitions to 3600fps, at ~ 17 foot-pounds recoil, has slightly less recoil than many  .270 Win or .308 Win loads.   A .270 WSM, pushing a 130g to 3400fps provides a useful increase in reach and thump over the .270 Win, but at ~ 21 foot pounds, recoil is still well under many .30-06 loads.  A .338-06 can push a 210g to 2600fps, generating around 28-29 foot-pounds of recoil -  a couple more than some popular .300WM loads (such as a 168g @ 3200fps for 27 foot-pounds).

 The .338-375 Ruger I’m putting together will be a true long range thumper and at ~43 foot-pounds recoil  still won’t match some of the .45-70 or 12 ga loads.  It will, however, provide .340 Weatherby ballistics such as delivering a 210g bullet to the 500-yard line with almost 2500fpe and, with a 3” max rise, only 25-26” of drop.  It will also deliver over 1500fpe past 800 yards.  Do I really NEED such a rifle?  YES.  Why?  To satisfy an itch!  Don’t need any other reasons and don’t care if other folks can’t shoot such rifles. 

By the way, while I've never taken game at ranges the .308 Win couldn't have handled, it does seem to me my 7mm RM and .300WM drop elk with noticeably more authority than my .30-06.

[nomosendero]

Well I knew this would be revived, even though the original poster has logically concluded that he doesn't need a magnum, & it was a well thought out decision on his part. Time to stir a little crap I guess. Funny, how I don't run into this idiots described that think they need a Big Five cartridge for an Al. Deer, probably never will, OH well. But I do know some who use a magnum & use it well, heck I even use one from time to time, yea mainly for that 3rd reason, at least most of the time. To each his own. I think we have already covered some valid reasons, but like Coyote hunter said, if you want one, that's reason enough. And if you don't want or need one, that"s cool too.

[Bart Solo]

There is one downside to magnum fever that should be very important for all of us. Many magnums don't show much wear while resting in the used rack at the local gun store.  The reason is that those magnums haven't been used much.  I suspect that after the first few shots out on the range many hunters don't really shoot their magnum beauty very often.  It is hard to become a good shot if you don't shoot.  When I go into the field I really want to know that everybody I am hunting with can hit what he sees. 

Oh, as to the 30-06 cartridge, if it was invented in 2006 no manufacturer would build a rifle for it.  After all why would any manufacturer want to sell a rifle using a cartridge that could be very effectively loaded with bullets ranging from 125 to 220 grains.  Hell a cartridge that flexible could knock the heck out of rifle sales.     

[dukkillr]

I sorta wonder if I created a new round, exactly the same as the 30-06 and named it the "30 Springfield Magnum" how many of you would decry it as overkill, a waste of money, an insult to general sensibilities, and completely impossible to shoot accurately.  How many would have anecdotal stories about all the people you know who now flinch and miss everything and display general incompetence that only the round your grandfather taught you to use could cure.

[PartsMan]

I sorta wonder if I created a new round, exactly the same as the 30-06 and named it the "30 Springfield Magnum" how many of you would decry it as overkill, a waste of money, an insult to general sensibilities, and completely impossible to shoot accurately.  How many would have anecdotal stories about all the people you know who now flinch and miss everything and display general incompetence that only the round your grandfather taught you to use could cure.

It was discused a while back. It's a good read.
http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,129171.0.html

[Coyote Hunter]

There is one downside to magnum fever that should be very important for all of us. Many magnums don't show much wear while resting in the used rack at the local gun store.  The reason is that those magnums haven't been used much.  I suspect that after the first few shots out on the range many hunters don't really shoot their magnum beauty very often.  It is hard to become a good shot if you don't shoot.  When I go into the field I really want to know that everybody I am hunting with can hit what he sees.  

Many people don’t shoot their rifle very often regardless of the cartridge, magnum or not.   The people I hunt with shoot magnums for the most part and shoot them very well.  On the other hand I see people at the range that can’t shoot non-magnums worth beans.

For what it is worth, my .257 Roberts and .308 Win were both purchased used and both were in like-new condition.  It isn’t just the magnums that don’t get shot much.

Oh, as to the 30-06 cartridge, if it was invented in 2006 no manufacturer would build a rifle for it.  After all why would any manufacturer want to sell a rifle using a cartridge that could be very effectively loaded with bullets ranging from 125 to 220 grains.  Hell a cartridge that flexible could knock the heck out of rifle sales.    

A cartridge cannot “knock the heck out of rifle sales” – even if it replaces sales of rifles chambered for other cartridges there is still the sale of a rifle.  What manufacturer in their right mind would miss a hot ticket cartridge and watch sales decline when all they had to do to participate in the market for the new cartridge was chamber rifles accordingly?

It there was nothing between the .308 Win and the .300 WM and the .30-06 was introduced, I suspect it would be widely accepted by both manufacturers and shooters.

[dukkillr]

I sorta wonder if I created a new round, exactly the same as the 30-06 and named it the "30 Springfield Magnum" how many of you would decry it as overkill, a waste of money, an insult to general sensibilities, and completely impossible to shoot accurately.  How many would have anecdotal stories about all the people you know who now flinch and miss everything and display general incompetence that only the round your grandfather taught you to use could cure.

It was discused a while back. It's a good read.
http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,129171.0.html

Very nice.

You know if two identical rifles are sitting on the shelf and one is a 30-06 and one is a 7.62 Slim Mag there would be whole legions of guys who could go on and on about how nobody needs that Slim mag.  All the recoil and expense and everyone they know developed a flinch.  The only hunters they'd ever seen shooting those magnums were idiots from the city anyway, they only shoot once a year. 

Then they'd recommend that everyone shoot the 30-06 instead.

[Bart Solo]

Coyote Hunter,

You take me way too seriously. 

We all know folks who don't shoot much, but most people who do shoot better than they would if they didn't shoot at all.  Of course a lot of people can't shoot worth a darn, but with proper training and practice most of them will improve. 

I subscribe to the school of thought that says a person should progress from 22 to a low recoil .223 then to 243 or such, then to a 308 or 30-06 and finally to that big bad magnum.  You develop your skills with the low recoil cartridges and move along to something heavier.

I also subscribe to the school that says you start close and stay close until you are comfortable and competent. You then move the target back to an intermediate distance until you are again comfortable and competent.  Then you move the target back again and again until you are comfortable at long range. 

At each step of the way and with each rifle you do all you can to learn to shoot from several different positions.  All of that is sort of difficult if you only shoot your rifle three shots a year from a bench.

Of course I might be wrong about the practice thing.  My son doesn't practice much but has been a successful hunter for many years.  He usually hits what he is aiming at, but then again he is usually shooting a deer from a stand at a range of less than 50 yards. I had an uncle who used the same box of cartridges for 20 years.  Got his deer nearly every year.  On the other hand I have seen guys at the range who couldn't hit a dinner plate with their 7MM magnum at 25 yards.  I don't want to be in the woods with guys who can't hit a dinner plate at 25 yards.  Do you?

As to the 30-06 discussion is there another cartridge that covers such a large range of bullet weights?

[nomosendero]

"Many magnums don't show much wear while resting in the used rack at the local gun store".  Wow, goody.
Ron, if you could I would appreciate it if you sent me a PM with the ph. # of this shop. I look for good deals, maybe he has a Rem in 300 or 338RUM, Win. Model 70's Vanguards, so forth. It may be a regional thing, I don't know, but I work most of Northern AR with my job & I usually find a few minutes to check out every gun shop in the area & that's a bunch, but I just don't get many deals on Magnum rifles of quality, but I don't run into this "magnum fever" thingy either, again I may be in the wrong area.

"As to the 30-06 discussion is there another cartridge that covers such a large range of bullet weights?"
Yes, the 300WM & for reloaders, any 30 cal. with a capacity as big or bigger than the '06, which includes several.

As to pie plate shooters, the biggest group of those I am aware of are 30-30 & Mod. 742 boys with scopes they bought in plastic bubbles with see-through mounts & grab any fact. ammo & mix it. They are found all over the country & most of them are std. caliber boys.
 

[Dixie Dude]

Based on everything I have read on this site, I think the only magnum caliber needed would be a 7mm Rem, a 375HH or a 22-250.  Reason is the 7mm can shoot longer distances accurately for pronghorn, elk, or caribou.  The 375 HH for Africa and maybe Alaska.  The 22-250 for long range western varmits.  All other game can be shot a reasonable distances with traditional calibers.  Most hunters can't hold steady for a very long range shot.  In the west you could use shooting sticks or a good bipod with the 7mm and the 22-250.  Standard calibers can shoot reasonably well out to 250-300 yards, which is a long shot for most people.  I use a .308 for deer.  I have a 30-06 and a .35 Whelen for big game.  I do not have a 22-250, but I have a .223.  Another good caliber is a .17 HMR which gives you longer range on small game than the .22 mag.  Just MHO. 

[dukkillr]

As to pie plate shooters, the biggest group of those I am aware of are 30-30 & Mod. 742 boys with scopes they bought in plastic bubbles with see-through mounts & grab any fact. ammo & mix it. They are found all over the country & most of them are std. caliber boys. 

That matches my experience as well.  I don't see it as much in Kansas but when I was hunting in the Southern Missouri Ozarks more often I would see the classic combination of:
1) Morbidly obese slob "good ol' boy"
2) 30-30
3) wal-mart quality scope

Generally these "hunters" would wander around jump shooting and driving (and road hunting) deer.  Needless to say, wounded and lost deer were regular occurances. 

Since "magnumitis" is being used now in a condescending and arrogant manner I suggest starting a new term, "30-30itis".  It should do wonders for the hunting community by starting fights amongst ourselves and insulting those we don't even know.  Who's with me?  To the pitchforks and torches!

[nomosendero]

"Who's with me? To the pitchforks & torches." This is in good humor I know, but your message is clear & I agree.

Just as the Nation has been divided into special interest groups, Minorities, political parties, unions on & on
we sportsmen are dividing ourselves as well. The "traditional archer" doesn't like the compound user, the compound user doesn't like the crossbow hunter, the flntlocks against the in-line, revolver-vs-single shot & Ar type vs bolt, scoped, std. rounds vs the magnum, on & on it goes.

Why not just decide which weapons fit OUR needs as to where, how & what we hunt & not worry about what the neighbor uses as to weapon type as long as he is proficient in that use?

[Bart Solo]

"Why not just decide which weapons fit OUR needs as to where, how & what we hunt & not worry about what the neighbor uses as to weapon type as long as he is proficient in that use?" 

We are in total agreement. 

Dukkillr, as to that crack about Missouri hunters, I have to say that you sound like a real true blue Jayhawk.   

[Coyote Hunter]

Coyote Hunter,

You take me way too seriously. 

We all know folks who don't shoot much, but most people who do shoot better than they would if they didn't shoot at all.  Of course a lot of people can't shoot worth a darn, but with proper training and practice most of them will improve. 

 A couple years ago I took Daughter #1’s then boyfriend, Zach, out to the range.  At the time he had not shot anything in 4 years and had never shot past 100 yards or so and had never fired a dreaded magnum.  We started out shooting clay pigeons at 200 yards with the .22-250.  He felt that was “too easy” so we backed up to 300 yards.  It was still “too easy” in his words.  There were no benches at the 400-yard line so we backed up to 500 yards and shot clay pigeons with my .257 Roberts.  I hit two with a total of 4 shots, he hit two with a total of three shots.  We then shot the steel gong at 500 yards with my .300 Win Mag and both of us got 1st round hits, after which we backed up to 600 yards.  Again we both got first round hits and the fresh paint showed the two hits were about 1-1/2” apart and centered 1-1/2 “ to 2” out from dead center in the 10:30 position.  I practice a fair amount and was giving Zach instructions on where to aim, but he was doing the shooting and was doing every bit as well as I was (and did better at 500 yards).

I subscribe to the school of thought that says a person should progress from 22 to a low recoil .223 then to 243 or such, then to a 308 or 30-06 and finally to that big bad magnum.  You develop your skills with the low recoil cartridges and move along to something heavier.

Guess I did it all wrong – I went from a .22LR to a 7mm Remington Magnum.  At 31 I was too young and stupid to know I should fear it and didn’t have a prayer of shooting it well...

I also subscribe to the school that says you start close and stay close until you are comfortable and competent. You then move the target back to an intermediate distance until you are again comfortable and competent.  Then you move the target back again and again until you are comfortable at long range. 

Well, we more or less agree here.

At each step of the way and with each rifle you do all you can to learn to shoot from several different positions.  All of that is sort of difficult if you only shoot your rifle three shots a year from a bench.

Of course I might be wrong about the practice thing.  My son doesn't practice much but has been a successful hunter for many years.  He usually hits what he is aiming at, but then again he is usually shooting a deer from a stand at a range of less than 50 yards. I had an uncle who used the same box of cartridges for 20 years.  Got his deer nearly every year.  On the other hand I have seen guys at the range who couldn't hit a dinner plate with their 7MM magnum at 25 yards.  I don't want to be in the woods with guys who can't hit a dinner plate at 25 yards.  Do you?

Don’t know how you miss at 50 yards with any firearm that is sighted in reasonably well, but I had a friend that missed an antelope at 85 yards, so I know it happens.  (He used a .30-06, by the way.) 

No, I wouldn’t want to be in the woods with someone that couldn’t hit at 25 yards with a 7mm Rem Mag, but would bet good money that such a person couldn’t hit with a .30-06, either.

As to the 30-06 discussion is there another cartridge that covers such a large range of bullet weights?

Yes, there are several such cartridges, including all the .308” magnums, which can duplicate or easily exceed .30-06 velocities, as desired.

The range of bullet weights available for the .308 calibers, as with other calibers, is pretty much irrelevant to me, as long as the weights I need are available.  I haven’t found that to be a problem with any cartridge.

[Cement Man]

I hunted whitetails for many years in 4 rifle states east of the Mississippi before I went out west on an elk hunt.  I thought I had it all figured out - that my '06 was all the cartridge that I would ever need or want, - anywhere.

When I first went to Colorado on an elk hunt and started walking towards a mountain that looked pretty close, and an hour later it still seemed to be the same distance (or even farther) away, I started to figure out that something that increased the effective shooting distance could definitely be a good thing - AS LONG AS I COULD DO MY PART. It was a whole new world to me.

Well, I don't have a "magnum" yet after another 20 years, the primary reason being that I haven't had the time or the dedication to develop myself to make use of more power and range.  (I retired recently - and I intend to change that.)  Nonetheless, the increased potential of the magnums had become abundantly clear.  I have never felt the need to criticize magnums or those who choose and use them. Many of them could teach me a lot.

I don't understand the criticism about rifle and ammo makers coming out with new products either - calling it all "hype", etc.  I like the variety and I believe in capitalism.  I don't look at it as a plot, rather another opportunity, if you like what you see.  The market will sort it out.  If having lots of choices is a problem, to me its a good problem.

In the many years that I have been hunting in the deer woods, I actually only met one fellow that carried a magnum.  I called him ".338 Lenny".  He hunted whitetails in the Minnesota woods with a .338 BAR.  So what?  He killed some deer with it.  Maybe it was his only rifle and it did double-duty for other big game.  Pretty much the same trajectory as an '06, and he liked it.  Nothing to comment on in my book. Lenny sure liked that gun and that cartridge, and I believe he could shoot it. 

My final assignment in my working career was being a project manager.  That generally requires that you put together a concept or system to improve something or to meet some objective, and if you want to be successful, you had better know your business.  After a very short while of trying to create new things and solutions, I concluded that the critic is often the most unqualified role of all.  Some people feign knowledge or expertise through criticism, when in fact all one needs is a mouth, nothing more.

[Bart Solo]

"As to the 30-06 discussion is there another cartridge that covers such a large range of bullet weights?"

"Yes, there are several such cartridges, including all the .308” magnums, which can duplicate or easily exceed .30-06 velocities, as desired."


I keep hearing that, but the cartridges suggested all have useful bullet weights ranging around 70 grains from bottom to top, usually starting at 150 and moving up to around 220 grains.  The range of useful and available 30-06 bullet weights is about 95 grains. In our small world of plenty the 30-06's flexibility isn't really important, but if I was limited to just one firearm I would pick a 30-06 because I could easily use it on a very broad range of game from jack rabbit to moose.  The 30-06 also handles an impressive range of powders and powder loads. It does well with cast bullets. If there was truly a place on the planet where a man could lose himself the 30-06 would be my cartridge of choice.  You might pick a different cartridge for completely valid reasons. That doesn't mean either of us is wrong, but it might make a good discussion.

[Coyote Hunter]

"As to the 30-06 discussion is there another cartridge that covers such a large range of bullet weights?"

"Yes, there are several such cartridges, including all the .308” magnums, which can duplicate or easily exceed .30-06 velocities, as desired."


I keep hearing that, but the cartridges suggested all have useful bullet weights ranging around 70 grains from bottom to top, usually starting at 150 and moving up to around 220 grains.  The range of useful and available 30-06 bullet weights is about 95 grains. In our small world of plenty the 30-06's flexibility isn't really important, but if I was limited to just one firearm I would pick a 30-06 because I could easily use it on a very broad range of game from jack rabbit to moose.  The 30-06 also handles an impressive range of powders and powder loads. It does well with cast bullets. If there was truly a place on the planet where a man could lose himself the 30-06 would be my cartridge of choice.  You might pick a different cartridge for completely valid reasons. That doesn't mean either of us is wrong, but it might make a good discussion.

Ron –
IMHO it is absolutely ridiculous to suggest a 55g sabot is useful in a .30-06 and then suggest it is not useful in .308” magnums.  The first .300 Win Mag loads I developed were .308 Winchester equivalents and I worked up through .30-06 power levels on my way to full-power .300 Win Mag loads.  ANY bullet a .30-06 can shoot a .300 Win Mag can shoot just as well but the .300WM can drive them faster if desired.  In other words, the full range of useful bullet weights for the .30-06 are also useful in the .308” magnums. 

As a practical matter, I shoot a wider range of bullets in my .300 Win Mag (165g to 180g) than I do in my .30-06’s (165g to 168g).   Bullet weights outside those ranges don’t interest me.

The .300 Win Mag also works well with a wide variety of powders, but, as with bullet weights, I am only concerned about a very few.

You don’t need to sell me on the merits of the .30-06, as I have three of them.  For the last couple years the .30-06s were my choice for elk and deer but they were chosen with full knowledge that I was giving up useful range with the selection.

By the way, since I like my .300 Win Mag so much, why do I have .30-06’s?  There are several answers to that question.

1.  My first .30-06 was purchased while I was in Texas for a four month stretch.  That rifle was purchased for the specific purpose of hunting pigs.  It was 2006, the 100 year anniversary of the .30-06, and I found a used but like-new Ruger at a great price at a gun show.  Being a Ruger fan, I couldn’t pass it up.  Never did hunt pigs with it but that’s another story.

2. The second reason is that when I purchased the first .30-06 I was an annual member of the NRA Whittington Center shooting range in Raton, NM.  (These days I am a life member.)  Whittington Center has a steel silhouette range and tipping over the steel rams at 500 meters is a blast .  Unfortunately, centerfire 22’s and magnums are not allowed on that range.  Thus my .308 Winchester and first two .30-06’s, all of which were purchased with those steel silhouettes in mind.  (No, I don’t need more than one rifle for that range but then again, why not?).

3.  As a practical matter, the .30-06 will work for most of my needs, but it is definitely not the best for long range work on game.

4.  For plinking, the .30-06 uses cheap brass and less powder than my magnums.  168g A-MAX bullets work great for clay pigeons at 400 yards and the steel gong at 500 yards, but for steel at 600 yards I prefer my magnums.

5. My 168g A-MAX loads for my .30-06’s and .308 Win are virtually identical in terms of velocity, around 2650fps.  My daughters enjoy shooting those loads.  (Yes, I could load my .300 Win Mag to that velocity but I have a lot more .30-06 brass available and these days I save the .300 Win Mag brass for full-power loads.)

6. The third .30-06 was purchased as a wedding gift for my future son-in-law.  I’ve done the load development and he’s already used it for hunting.  The choice of .30-06 was due to the cost of factory ammo as he doesn’t reload and I won’t always be available to reload when he needs ammo.  That rifle will go away on the wedding day but I expect I’ll be reloading premium hunting ammo for it off and on for years to come.

[Bart Solo]

I don't doubt that you have a real need for that 300 Win Mag.  You live in Colorado.  I spent last weekend visiting family in Lamar.  Enough said about wide open spaces.  That you limit your use of your rifles to very few bullets is pretty understandable.  Why not?  You can afford several rifles.

My point about the merits of the 30-06 is that 102 years ago the army hit a home run. They produced an accurate cartridge with enormous room to grow.  I still think people would be hard pressed to find a cartridge with a broader range of applications.  That is why it has stood the test of time.

Is the 30-06 best at anything? No, there are any number of cartridges (including lots of magnums) that are better for just about any particular task, but the 30-06's flexibility makes it a very valuable back up. That you can find ammunition for it in just about any backwoods store enhances its value.  For a lot of folks the fact that 30-06 ammunition is relatively cheap is very important.   

I guess my point was that if I was going off grid for a year and could take only one firearm I would take my 30-06.  My 870 Remington 12 gauge, a 30-30 lever gun, or a Ruger 10/22 might also be good choices, but on balance I think I would take my 30-06.