Author Topic: Early mystery weapon  (Read 1812 times)

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Offline cannonmn

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Early mystery weapon
« on: December 01, 2008, 03:37:13 AM »
I can't recall if I ever posted anything about this item on this board or not, but now seems a good time, reason being that I've noticed more "very old" weapon enthusiasts here than say a year ago.  Lion is one of 'em.  Anyway, this is what some would call a "hand-cannon" but more properly, a hackbut.  I'm sure it once had a stock on it as the remains of iron attachment loops are cast into the bottom of it.  It is made of bronze.  I'll have to get the exact length and post it, think 36 in. or so, and bore is over 3/4 in., weighs maybe 30 lbs., but I'll go and check that too.

What do I want?  I've been trying off and on for years to determine exactly what the "IVR" initials on it mean.  The picture thing on it is a old-timey shield I've been told by the "experts."  There appears to be some kind of proof or maker's mark on the vent pan or near it, and there are a bunch of photos of that.  Note that the "IVR" may be in fact "JVR" since there was no "J" as a separate letter back in 16th C. when this is supposed to have been made.

No I don't shoot this one, but maybe with a blank load, one time, someday, it sure seems solid enough.

Video, kinda dull and not great photograpy:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhtapHl2iZs

Slideshow, much better pix:  http://s17.photobucket.com/albums/b62/cannonmn/hackbut/?action=view&current=b9e42f9b.pbw

Offline thelionspaw

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Re: Early mystery weapon
« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2008, 05:13:13 AM »
First: Your so-called "purse" is an armorial shield. Stippled field indicates a gold tincture.  Diagonal cross hatching escapes me. Vertical & parallel hatching is for black.

Secondly: Just as a by-the-by, flames like that have been used at times in France for one but undoubtedly elsewhere.

Third: Your "flowers" are likely to be trefoil (what you might call shamrock) as used in Irish decoration.

Fourth: "J V R" may indicate "James (the fifth) Rex" who was in Scotland 1513-1542. He married the daughter of the King of France.

All of this may be meaningless and the hound won't hunt. I don't have time right now to develop anything.  I'll look at it more closely this evening but the above might spur someone on.

The only John V that I know of was from Portugal.

One thing to keep in mind if you are going to try to tie the heraldry to anyone great, is that they used at least 2 achievements for shields (especially Scotland). One for a "War" shield and another for a "peace" shield.

Right now, I haven't had breakfast; my back is killing me; the car's battery is dead and the oil burner zone will not shut off.  My plate is full.  I have my back brace on and it's time for a cup of tea. So if you will excuse me for a bit.................catch you later.

Golden years? What alot of crappola!

rc
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Offline cannonmn

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Re: Early mystery weapon
« Reply #2 on: December 01, 2008, 05:26:17 AM »
Thanks Lionman, excellent info, I thought you'd be able to shed some light on this thing. 

Stay well.  I had some back surgery years ago and the doc gave me some simple twisting and toe-touch etc. exercises to do, so whenever I start feeling the pain I do them and it goes away pretty quick.  He told me the shape you stomach muscles are in can influence your back since they are what helps keep it in line, so he recommended situps also.  I ruined my back lifting cannons before I had the proper equipment, y'know, young and stupid.  Now I'm old and hopefully slightly less stupid.

Offline thelionspaw

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Re: Early mystery weapon
« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2008, 10:18:22 AM »
You'll get this a bit at a time, as I find time. Diagonal cross hatching is for "sanguine" a purple/blood red colour. So the shield if it is meaningful and not just (I doubt it) fanciful, will be a gold shield with sanguine cross bars.

I've included a page to illustrate the shoulder length stock that would utilize a peep sight (maybe). At least you can see some points of attachment. I've never seen a peep sight but then I am not an expert. There is someone who may be on this board who might know more. I understand he is somehow involved with a witches coven in New England. He's probably an expert.  Maybe someone knows him?

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Offline thelionspaw

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Re: Early mystery weapon
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2008, 02:29:09 PM »
cannonmn,
This may answer your question. James V King of Scots demanded that his landed gentry possess themselves of guns of different types according to their holdings. The book "The History of Perth" by Thomas Hay Marshall (printed 1849) pages 328 & 329 spells it out in detail. Perhaps the shield is that of the estate/land holder and the JVR is for the king he is to serve with it. A very interesting 2 pages BUT I am a computer klutz and have been trying to copy them for 1 & 1/2 hours. NADA!

I seem to have copied the entire book in MY PICTURES as an album but cannon upload it into MY HOSTED PICTURES to include it in this reply. DUH!

 Both hand guns, harquebus, cannons of differing class fitting the rank of the land holder.

By a stroke of luck, this may be it. The extra fruit salad cut into your piece may be the desire of the owner, since he was paying for it and wanted it to be personal.

A very interesting 2 pages for cannon people.

How to get it to you, remains a mystery to me.

Richard
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Offline thelionspaw

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Re: Early mystery weapon
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2008, 04:03:00 PM »
JVR
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Offline thelionspaw

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Re: Early mystery weapon
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2008, 04:05:09 PM »
1st page?
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Offline cannonmn

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Re: Early mystery weapon
« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2008, 06:09:42 PM »
Thanks Richard, fascinating stuff.   So we can assume there were a whole lot of hackbuts in Scotland beginning about 1540, and this could be one of 'em.  I'll have to look up some of the archaic terms, like "a crocque."  I'm taking this thing to a gun club meeting and I will have to explain it, so the fact that it may have been a part of the original "armed militia" program will be of interest I'm sure.

I did a little fooling around with Richard's scans to blow 'em up (how appropriate here, right?)





Offline cannonmn

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Re: Early mystery weapon
« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2008, 06:46:11 PM »
As soon as I began searching for one of the words on the web, this popped up, looks like the same act of 1540, with somewhat different forms of the words:

[1540/12/65]*
Hagbutis and uther small artelyerie to be furnist within the realme

Item, becaus the schott of gunnis, hagbuttis, handbowis and uther small artelyerie now comounlie usit in all (censored word), baith be sey and land, in thare weris is sa felloune and uneschewable to the pith of hie curage of noble and vailyeant men, quhais actis and dedis cannocht be schewin without contrare provisioune be had of instrumentis of were and batell, it is herefore statute and ordanit be the kingis hienes, with avise and consent of the thre estatis of his realme, that every landit man within the samin sall have ane hagbute of found, callit hagbut of crochert, with thare calmis, bullettis and pellokis of leid or irne, with powder convenient thareto, for every hundreth pund of land that he hes of new extent, and he that hes bot ane hundreth merk land sall haif tua culveringis, and ilkman havand fourti pund land sall have ane culvering, with calmyis, leid and pulder ganand tharto, with trestis, to be at all tymes reddy for schoting of the saidis hagbuttis; and that every man of leving forsaid sall have ane man or ma as he may furness for schoting of the saidis hagbutis and culveringis and to leire utheris to schoit the samin; and that every man have the said artelyerie efferand to his leving, substanciouslie furnist as said is, reddy within xviij monethis next efter the publicacioune of this acte, under the pane of dowbling of the price that will by ilk pece of the said artelyerie, to be applyit to the kingis grace use for bying of the samin to himself; and the saidis xviij monethis being past, that every man mak his musteris with the said artelyerie, weill furnist as said is, at the next wapinschawing therefter to the takaris and ressavaris of the saidis wapinschawingis, the quhilk being done thai sall nocht be bundin to bring thare said artelyerie to ony wapinschawingis therefter, bot geiff thai be specialie requirit thareto be the kingis graces writtingis or be the schireff or uther jugis ordinare under the kingis grace; and that this acte be extendit als weill to the lordis of regalite and thair tenentis as to thame of the rialtie, and that every kirkman furness siclike artelyerie in maner aboune written to be schawin at wapinschawingis as said is efter the avale and quantite of thair temperale landis, and that thare artelyerie remane at the castell, abbay or mansioune of the bischope, prelate or kirkman, to be kepit thare and left to his successoure quha salbe haldin to wphald the samin for the defense of the realme. And becaus it can nocht be now cleirlie understandin of the avale and quantite of every burgh quhat artelyerie and howmekle thai may furness, therefore, it is ordanit that lettres be writtin to the provestis, ballies, aldermen of every burgh of this realme signifyand unto thame this statute and ordinance of the maner of furnesing of artelyerie to be maid be the baronis and kirkmen, chargeing thame, tharefore, to convene thare counsale, avise and conclude quhat artelyerie and in quhat manere ilk burgh may perfurness, and refere agane to the kingis grace within xv dais nixt eftir thai be chargit tharto, that his hienes may be avisit tharwith; with certificatioune geiff thai failye tharintill, his grace sall cause thame to be taxt efter the avale and quantite of thare commoune gudis and substance for furnesing of the said artelyerie; and ordanis that ladyis of conjunct fee and lifrent sall furness efferand to the quantite of thare leving for support of the baronis and utheris landit men in the prefurnessing of the said artelyerie.

[1540/12/66]*
For hamebringing of hagbutis, culveringis, pulder and harnesse

Item, becaus nathir artelyerie nor harnesse can be furnist nor maid reddy conforme to the actis maid tharupoune without the samyn be brocht hame be merchandis, tharefore, it is statute and ordanit that every merchand saland forth of this realm, or sendand his gudis extending to ane last of gudis, sall bring hame als oft as he salis or sendis his gudis at every tyme twa hagbutis of crochert or ma as his pak may furness, with poulder and calmys for furnessing of the samin, or ellis als mekle mettal as will mak the saidis hagbutis, with poulder efferand tharto, and siclike harness for furnessing of oure soverane lordis liegis in manere forsaid.

___________
The above text came from this page, which has a bunch of other interesting laws on it.  You can see the first many of them deal with religion and heresy, as back then, there was no such thing as separation of Church and State, the two were very much connected.

http://www.rps.ac.uk/search.php?action=fc&fn=jamesv_ms&id=id4002&query=&type=ms&variants=

And here's "Jamison's Dictionary of the Scottish Language" to look up unfamiliar words.  I looked up "crohert" and it is apparently just another word for Hackbut.

http://www.archive.org/stream/jamiesonsdiction00jamirich/jamiesonsdiction00jamirich_djvu.txt

Offline thelionspaw

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Re: Early mystery weapon
« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2008, 06:37:56 AM »
cannonmn: The censored word is, "countries". Also, "crichart" means, a hackbut with an iron hook cast on the barrel. "cams" are bullet moulds in this case but a "cam" is any mould used for casting metal.

Anything else?

Richard "The Investigator"
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Offline cannonmn

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Re: Early mystery weapon
« Reply #10 on: December 03, 2008, 12:18:35 PM »
Thanks R. 

How 'bout "hagbut of crochert?"

Offline thelionspaw

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Re: Early mystery weapon
« Reply #11 on: December 03, 2008, 02:41:43 PM »
cannonmn: I have found a reasonable translation of what we have been reading. I can't figure out how to exactly steer you to the site which I now have in my FAVORITES but I sent it to myself as an Email which I can foward to you if I have your address. I also printed it, so I can do the mickey-mouse way and scan it into MY PICTURES and then upload it into Graybeard's hosting and then down load it into a reply on this post, which may be a little difficult to read. Any 4th grader in my wife's school would know an easier way but I don't.  How do you want me to do it and get it to you?

A hagbut is a hackbut is a harquebus. Hagbut of crochert is a hackbut of crichart. It is the harquebus with the forged protrusion to deaden the recoil by hanging it over a rail or some handy rest, etc.. You know the piece.

If you are going to do a presentation, what I have may dress it up a bit if they like history and not just making things go BOOM. It flows better than what we now have in this post.

Sup to youse!

Richard
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Offline cannonmn

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Re: Early mystery weapon
« Reply #12 on: December 03, 2008, 03:25:58 PM »
Thanks Richard, yes that translation would be interesting. 

All you need to do is, when you are on that site, copy the line at the very top of the browser page, the thing starting with "http://..." then paste it into a reply here.  That's the URL or address of the site you are looking at, and all anyone needs to get to it. 

To copy the url from top of page, just left click on it so it gets highlighted, then while it is highlighted, right click and select "copy."  Then open up  a "reply" here, right-click, and select "paste" and it will show up in your post.

You probably know most of that so forgive me for going to that detail, but it is hard to know exactly what the other party knows and doesn't so I put all the steps in.

I will send you my email addy also in case sending it direct works any better for you.

Offline thelionspaw

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Re: Early mystery weapon
« Reply #13 on: December 03, 2008, 03:54:26 PM »
http://www.rps.ac.uk/search.php?action=fc&fn=jamesv_trans&id=id3996&query=&type=trans&variants=

If this works, you will have to scroll down quite a bit but having just copied the required text, I sent that to you.

O.K.. I just had another idea.

More Emails coming.

rc
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Offline thelionspaw

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Re: Early mystery weapon
« Reply #14 on: December 03, 2008, 04:10:55 PM »
cannonmn: No problemo with explaining things to me. To borrow a line from Sgt. Schultz, "I know nuh-thinnnggg" ;D 

rc
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Offline cannonmn

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Re: Early mystery weapon
« Reply #15 on: December 03, 2008, 05:12:42 PM »
Thanks Richard, got it.  Very interesting stuff.

Offline Bob Smith

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Re: Early mystery weapon
« Reply #16 on: December 06, 2008, 10:11:23 AM »
Cannonmn

That's a very fine piece indeed and I am very envious of you!

However I would not go too far down the Scottish route; Firearms like this are notoriously difficult to date and provenance with any precision. It is unlikely that it is of Scottish provenance. There are several examples around Europe which tend to indicate that they were more central European. A fine example in the collection of Veste Coburg in south Germany is suggested to be from about 1500 and I would date them to early 16th century (see Geibig 1996: 128). This example is still in a wooden stock with a matchlock mechanism and is 150cm long overall with a bore of 22mm. There are also examples in Grandson in Switzerland (though I am unsure where it is today), another in the Historische Museum in Zurich, and yet another in the Historische Museum in Bern (Wegeli 1948: cat no 2209). A fine example was also sold at Sothebys, London, in 2002 where it is catalogued as ‘early 16th century’ and was 95cm long (Sothebys). All are very similar but not identical indicating either that they are all from the same workshop or that it was a particular fashion for a short period of time.

There is a very interesting article by David Caldwell about the Royal Scottish gunfoundry in which he states that James V used the form IR5 (Iacobus Rex 5) on his guns and coinage.

Sorry for taking so long to reply to this, a combination of travelling and an intermittant computer server. And I start travelling again in a day or so.



Geibig, A, 1996 Gerahrlich und Schon. Kunstsammlung der Veste Coburg.
Sothebys, London, Wednesday 10 July 2002 Fine arms, armour and militaria, page 126
Caldwell, David H, 1983 'The Royal Scottish Gun Foundry in the sixteenth century' in  From the Stone Age to the 'Forty-five, studies presented to R B K Stevenson, Edinburgh pages 427-49.


Offline thelionspaw

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Re: Early mystery weapon
« Reply #17 on: December 06, 2008, 12:48:08 PM »
Interesting factoids and supositions but the pieces that the gentry were ordered to have made, came from foundries other than "Royal Scottish" foundries. They came, in a hurry, from any source, even local.

This style weapon was made throughout Europe And moreover, in Scotland itself. The individual ordering the piece, would be able to provide his desires for ornamentation. The founder wouldn't necessarily be attuned to the niceties of Royal cypher.

Why is it, "unlikely that it is of Scottish provenance"? Were they backward in the ways of artillery? I do not think so and not because my father was a MacDuff (he was).

n.b.: Merchants were commanded to return from foreign quarters with, "hagbutis of crochert".

These pieces were founded everywhere. Even Scotland.

Spaghetti came from China so it wasn't made in Italy?

If King James V is calling for (and he was) "hagbutis of crochert", then by jingo, he would get what he asked for, i.e. "crochert", the hang-me-down little part on the barrel.

It would be interesting in 500 years, to have my breechblock misidentified as having come from Jicin in Moravia ca. 1450s and not Arkville on New York ca. 1980s because extant examples weren't founded in "Arkville".

Fact: The published manuscript, penned in 1541, implies that these hand held artillery were produced in Scotland.

I'd be more interested in the presence of the peep sight.  The Scots were famously inventive people. Find one on a central European gun and the case can be argued that it was copied from Scotland. TV was invented in Scotland by a Scot, who walked away from it because it had no practical application. I know it has been written that TV was invented in Russia by a Russian, along with everything else of consequence. Today, you won't find a TV set that says, Made In Scotland. Too bad hagbuts werent stamped with their origin.

rc



 





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Offline cannonmn

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Re: Early mystery weapon
« Reply #18 on: December 06, 2008, 12:51:33 PM »
Thanks Bob.  One key here might be the coat of arms or shield on it, don't you think?  When one does the translation between hatching/stippling and metal or tincture which one finds in the heraldry books, one comes up with a shield with gold/yellow background ("or") and two blood-red ("sanguine") horizontal stripes.  The edge line may be white or silver.  There are (or were) some good heraldry folks at our Library of Congress who have helped be in the past, and I think I will ask them about this soon.  Perhaps even if they can't pin down the individual who was assigned those arms, perhaps the coat of arms or shield will reflect a particular country or region.  I still have hope for a match to an individual, since even very early armorial records seem to be well-preserved in most countries and many were published in very thick books called armorials.

Offline Bob Smith

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Re: Early mystery weapon
« Reply #19 on: December 07, 2008, 08:58:05 AM »
Cannonmn,

You are right, I think the heraldry is the way forward, although I think we have had a conversation before about how disappointing and very difficult this can be! Good luck with the search- I hope you can track them down.

Bob Smith