45-120

[AtlLaw]

As some of you may know, at least anyone who visits the Handi Rifle forum, I'm going to ream out my 45-70 BC barrel to 45-120.     Just ordered the brass from Cabella's; they got it on sale!   

I've read horror stories about this cartridge's recoil, and I feel that while they may have merit in a smokeless load pushing a 500 gr bullet @ 2150 fps, that shouldn't be the case with a BP load and a 400 - 480 gr bullet.

I understand in-line shooters (never shot one myself...  ) routinely use 150 gr. of BP substitute, pellets,  with bullets well over 300 gr. without complaint.   

Does anyone have any experience, even second hand, with BP loads in the 45-120?

[longcaribiner]

Never shot a 45-120.  However, I have shot an 1884 trapdoor with 65 grains of ffg and 500 grain Lyman 457-125 bullets seated only to 45-90 over all length.  (all the further they would go in with that much powder)    After a 40 shot match, I was black and blue from the collar bone to the elbow.  Certainly the 1884 Trapdoor doesn't have much drop and slaps the shooter around pretty good. 

So, let me say, that (1) I don't think the 45-120 is a good candidate for real heavy bullets.  (2) the barrel length is such that I don't think the 120 grains of powder is all consumed before the bullet leaves the muzzle.  So the efficiency of that extra powder capacity may be lost.    In a 50 cal in-line, the bore is larger so that more of the powder takes up less bore space.  120 grains of powder in a 45 makes for a charge column that is several inches long.  leaving less barrel length to burn the powder before bullet exit.  I have read that some folks have had good results taking their NEF's out to 45-90.  I don't know if it is worth taking it that extra length.     

[John Boy]

Does anyone have any experience, even second hand, with BP loads in the 45-120?

AtlLaw ... I don't, but this recipe is from an authoritative source

.45 x 3.25" (AKA45/120) Clive Taylor  “ The Brit”
Bullet: NEI 349J cast from new flashing lead (99.6% pure). Casts at 585 grn nominal and .461 dia. and are not sized. Bullets are weighed and batched in groups 583.6/584.5, 584.6/585.5, 585.6/586.5 anything above or below discarded (very few). I generally cast 500 - 1000 at a time which makes this technique viable. Comps. shot from one batch. Not indexed. Finger seated. Not crimped.
Lube: Home brew. Pan lubed. All grooves filled.
Wad: Wax card from milk carton. Punched with die cutter made by Charlie Higginbottom

Grease Cookie: 11mm thick of home brew. Cookie cut from pan.
Beeswax Wad: Cookie cut from Hive Starter sheets.
Case:  HDS trimmed to 3.245. Not resized at all. Not sorted or indexed. Scrubbed internally after shoot and vibrated in crushed corn and brasso for 2 hours before reloading.

Powder: Kicker load of 45 grains of Swiss #4 (1.5fg to you) poured into case. 70 grains of Wano fg (socked) poured into case. Both charges are weighed using Dillon D-Terminator. Compressed .5" using Buffalo Arms compression die. 

Primer: Remington 9 1/2 Large Rifle seated with Lee Auto Prime

Note:  Wano in the US is Schuetzen Powder
http://www.ssbpcrc.co.uk/Resources/Introduction%20to%20BPCR%20Loading.pdf

[AtlLaw]

I have read that some folks have had good results taking their NEF's out to 45-90.  I don't know if it is worth taking it that extra length.

I kicked this around for quite a while before deciding on the 45-120.  It's just going to be something unusual to play with and the deciding factor was the "shock and awe" of that 3.25 inch case!     The BC barrel is 32 inches long And I'd actually thought of bringing it down a tad... until I thought of playing with BP loads.  Believe me, if practicality was a consideration I wouldn't have selected the 45-120!   

But, to late now... I have a hundred cases on the way from Cabellas.  They're on sale!   

[AtlLaw]

this recipe is from an authoritative source

Thanks JB!  Great read!   

[Vinny]

I had an Italian made Sharps replica in 45-120 for some years, back in the 90's.
Bought it with 50pcs of BELL brass and an RCBS die set, from a guy that couldent get it to shoot.
IIRC, it was 34" bbl and weighed over 13lbs, so recoil wasent bad at all with BP, about like a 12ga.
In fact my Omega probably kicks harder with 300gr sabots and 100gr of 777.
Tried all the different stuff available at the time, including jacketed bullets and smokeless loadings, but it never did shoot up to my expectations either.
Wish I had some good words of wisdom for ya, but it left me nothing but fustrated.
About the best it ever did was 6" groups with 450gr lead bullets and a case full of BP.
Ended up trading it to my boss, to be used as nothing more than a kool wall hanger for his hunting cabin.
Still have the brass and dies collecting dust in my loading room.

Cheers, V

[AtlLaw]

I've heard that the 45-120 is very tempermental.

BTW Vinny, I PM'd you... 

[Smokin Joe]

Richard, If you haven't already, check with the BPCR site for good info if you want to shoot black:

http://www.bpcr.net/forum/

Also Shiloh:

http://www.shilohrifle.com/forums/

P.S. There's good smokeless info in Lyman's #48

[AtlLaw]

Thanks Joe, I figgered you'd be around here somewheres!   

I got the Lyman 48, and will get down to some serious handload research when I am about finished with the rifle.  I actually started this thread as a question about recoil.  It seems like a lot of people wince and cry and turn into quivering little girls at the thought of shooting anything much bigger then their favorite 243, let alone a 45/120!     

I just couldn't see the 45/120 as being that bad even with a case full of BP and a 300 - 400 gr. bullet.     Especially when in-line shooters routinely use 150 grs with heavy projectiles and no one ever complains about that recoil.      Just curious...  I thought some of the big bore BP cartridge rifle shooters might have an opinion.

I was shooting the BC barrel off the bench to sight it in with the load I worked up for my 22 inch 45/70 barrel.  A 300 gr. Speer over a compressed charge of Varget that gave 1800 fps out of the 22 incher.  I didn't take the time to put one over my Chrony but I would think the 10 inch longer barrel would increase that velocity some.  My 45/70 Handi does NOT have a pad, just a plastic/hard rubber butt plate and I thought the recoil was mild with that load.   

Oh well, recoil is pretty subjective anyway.  I guess there's only one sure way to find out how much any round kicks!   

[Smokin Joe]

I have a .45-90 (B/C barrel), and I throw a handful of shot down the buttstock hole when I play at the bench with it.

Want a few 535 Paul Jones Creedmore bullets to play with?

[Lead pot]

Atilaw.
I had ,well still have in a way a 120. The best thing that ever happen to it was me ringing the chamber from a hang fire.
Yes the 120 can be a bear to find a load for but it does shoot quite well.
The recoil is stiff with a 540 grain cast bullet and 122 grains of 1F black but it is not as bad as my .50-90ss with a 720 grain bullet with 118 grains of Goex 1F express powder.
The 120 is not a good choice if you have any notion in your head using anything else but black.
With a compressed load of 1F you can expect around 1500 fps with a 540 grain bullet.
That handy rifle will bite with a 120 so I would think about using that caliber.
I was at the range one morning shooting the 120 in a 12# Sharps and the State Police Special Ops team train there and I was prone on the berm shooting and fragmenting hanging bowling pins at 200 yards, they just splinter when they get hit with the 120 or the .50
Well there were 6 standing behind me watching.
I asked you wana try it? and the young feller said, would love too.
I walked him through loading the rifle and setting the trigger. I said you better take off your shooting glove cause you wont feel the trigger, he said my sniper rifle has a fine trigger and I get along just fine with them on.
Well I handed him a round and stepped back.
Well his hat flew off and his aviation glasses were hanging only on one ear dangling his eyes were big as golf balls but never said a word.
I pulled another round out of the box but he refused it.
He asked how old are you? well back then I was 63 he just shook his head and said I dont know how you shot up all of those empty cases, I'm 27 and I think I broke my collar bone. The others turned it down.
A 120 does draw a crowd when it goes off with that big cloud of smoke.

LP