New project

[ButlerFord45]

I've decided that this winters project is going to be a 6" S&W M19 and cast bullets.  I don't need to feel the earth shake when I let the hammer fall but at least some authority.
I'm looking seriously at the Lyman 358429, it's a 170g Keith semi wadcutter. 
This project is at the research and procurement phase.  I already have a few hundred pounds of wheelweights and 4-5 hundred pounds of plumbing lead on hand. The Mod 19 has been found and the deal is done, just waiting for the funds/pistol swap.
I have located a 4 holer mould but can't find handles. Which brings the first question: Do RCBS handles fit Lyman moulds and if so, is there a particular model I need to look for?
I've learned something else as well!  I don't know if it is our new President-Elect or some other reason but new brass is hard to find!  I have some 357 and 38+P brass but would like to start with 500 to 1000 pieces of new.  I've never tried Starline so I thought I'd give it a try if I can find a source that's not sold out.
I have been a ladle caster for a few years but I think it's time to move on at least into the 20th century, of the Lee, Lyman, RCBS bottom pours, is their any real significant difference worth choosing one over the other?
Though I will slug cylinder throats and barrel, I'm betting sizing to .358 is going to be about right but if not I'll use that size die for other pistols and get the appropriate size die.
I'd like for anyone that would care to, to join in on this project as much as a forum would allow and I always like to show off if it goes well or have somewhere to seek help if it doesn't.  I never fail to listen to good advice or suggestions wether I heed them or not. I'm sure I'm going to need a bit of guidance from those of you that have already traveled this particular path.
Second question:  What kind of performance can I expect with this bullet?  I'm thinking of at or about 1100fps?
From what I can tell so far Lil Gun does this with the lowest chamber pressures. What can you tell me about the actual performance and characteristics of this powder?  Would 231 be better, worse or just another powder? Any other suggestions?
From what I can find out this bullet is a bit long but the cylinders in the 19 are long enough to accommodate it?
If 1100fps is doable (in respect to longevity of the gun) it is on the upper end of wheel weight velocity without a little help ie. adding linotype or heat treating?
Number three:  I have mostly used homemade lubes and I will admit with some success but I'm tired of that particular mess!  I did try some Lyman molylube with some 45 acp's and it worked well as a lube but was soft and messy.  Lube recommendations?
Any suggestions before I get any further?
I'm posting this in 3 forums because it is specific to all three-S&W, Casting and Reloading, so Bill, I hope you don't kick me out!
Thanks in advance
BF

[Graybeard]

Hi Bill it's good to see you poking your head back in from time to time here lately. Have things settled back down now from you taking a real job rather than just being a gentleman farmer? Faye said she saw you on line earlier today.

My first handgun was I believe a 6" Model 19 and I owned several of them over the years. I won my first ever trophy in a shooting match with that first M19 many many long years ago. These days I've switched to stainless so my guns are Model 66s rather than 19s same gun just SS rather than blue.

Can you get 1100 fps with the 358429? Sure but maybe not at the pressures it is being held to by SAAMI specs now. In the old days when I began the standard was a 158 grain at 1550 fps or at least so the data on the boxes of ammo and in manuals said. These days I think it's more like a 125 at 1250. That's a huge difference.

I have a four cavity mould for that bullet and it is a good design but might be a bit long for the M19 in a .357 Magnum case. I've not cast or loaded any of them in so long I don't remember if they fit or not. The have a very long nose. I have some cast up many years ago out in the loading area I think and if I can remember I'll check it out for you tomorrow. I'd recommend 2400 for it. Look up Elmer's old loads and you'll get that 1100 for sure.

In my opinion a better choice tho it is a gas check design is the 358156 I've threatened many times to get me a four cavity mould for that one but for now have a single and I think a double cavity mould in it. This is about the most accurate bullet I've ever shot in .38 and .357 revolvers. If you do your part it is easily able to keep a cylinder full inside an inch at 25 yards tho my days of shooting that well are past.

I don't think there is any substitute for Lyman's four cavity handles. To the best of my knowledge nothing will substitute at least nothing I've seen they are much different. Midsouth Shooter's Supply still lists them and that's where I have bought all those I have which is likely at least two or three maybe four sets of them.

Starline brass is as good as it gets and you can buy it directly from them as cheaply as anywhere I think and they are far more likely than anyone else to have it in stock.

I've used a Lee pot and never will again. I currently have the RCBS but if I were gonna do it again I'd get a Lyman as it fits and holds those four cavity moulds better than the RCBS. I doubt there is much difference otherwise.

For me the 358429 has never shot as well as the 358156 but is a bit heavier and is perhaps a better hunting bullet tho for me both are fine for that job. I do favor the absolute accuracy of the '156 tho. The cost of gas checks being what they are today you might want to skip them. I have several thousand stashed so for me that's not a show stopper.

Forget Lil' Gun and W231 and all those newer more modern powders. Just get you some 2400 and load it up and learn what a shooting gun is about. Bullseye is another favorite of mine for this bullet but my load is over book max these days so I don't give it out over the internet forums. I've shot thousands of them and I'd hazard a guess they are about at the pressure level the .357 was loaded to when it was invented back in the '30s. Today I think the charge I use with the 158-170 grains is about what books now call for with 125s. It's definitely not for .38 specials even tho I load it in that case as well as in the .357 mag case. I load a bit more in the .357 case tho to get about equal velocity. These are old loads of Elmer's I use.

Lubes. I've used more RCBS green than all others combined but am switching to Veral's blue soft when I next lube up some bullets. In fact I think that's what's in the luber-sizer now. Those are the only lubes I've used in the last few years. I know Veral says his is the best and maybe it is. I know it's darn good but then I've always liked the RCBS green as well. I think Veral's soft blue might be a bit less messy. RCBS green can be a bit messy but isn't bad and they make two I think one for low and one for higher velocity. The harder one for higher velocity is what I use.

Feel free to give me a call or drop me an e-mail or PM if you have any specific questions to me.

[Dale53]

ButlerFord45;
Your choice of handgun is a good one. I had a Model 19 - 6" some years ago and shot it a good bit. I had excellent results with it. The Lyman 358429 Keith bullet is a dandy. I have used 2400, H110, and 296 with excellent results. I have also shot light target loads in .38 Special cases that would consistently group well under 1" at 25 yards (using dbl ended 148 gr WC's). I have not used Lil Gun but Hodgdon's loading data shows that this should be a very good choice. The Model 19 cylinder is long enough to use the Keith bullet crimped in the crimping groove with .357 magnum cases (the Model 27 has a shorter cylinder and will not permit this).

Get your cases directly from Starline - their prices are better direct and they pay shipping on the larger orders (check with them on this). Starline is excellent brass.

I am now using Lars "Carnauba Red" bullet lube. It is really good stuff and is MUCH more reasonably priced than others products:

http://www.lsstuff.com/lube/index.html

Good luck with your new endeavor and "Shoot Center"!!

Dale53

[OLDHandgunner]

I agree with Graybeard on the Lyman 358156 gas check as a better shooter. I've had it in 4 cavity for many years. I have it in a single cavity HP also. I also have the 358429 in a 2 cavity and use it in some of my guns for hunting. The only thing against the 358429 is that it has to be seated deeper to fit in some guns.
And I also cut my teeth on a 4" Model 19 for PPC shoots. I won my first PPC Vt. State Championship for a service revolver in 1981. The 4" barrel was holding me back at the 50 yrds targets from getting to the next level. Didn't have the money for a custom comp gun so I put into service my old S&W K-38. This got me to the Master level but still had a rough time competing with the big guy's with there custom guns. Held my own with an 2nd & 3rd place and an occasional first, but still not good enough. So I bit the bullet and had my old trusty 4" Model 19 made into a PPC gun by Walt C. Cabell. He put on a Bill Davis Custom slab side barrel with Arist-Crat front adj. sight. This did the trick. In 1984 it won me 1st Master Civilan Vt. State PPC Championship. These were all won with my own cast 358495 BB wadcutter with 2.7grs of Bullseye.
If I had the time to practice more I wanted to make High Master, but time wasn't on my side.
So now my Model 19 PPC gun sets in my gun safe not fired in many, many years. I pick it up once in awhile and remember the good old day's we had together. Have thought about having it put back to my old 4" again because I saved the old barrel but right now just can't do it.
So good luck with your winter project with the Model 19. I hope you get it doing all you want it to do.

[ButlerFord45]

 I've done a bit of net searching for information on the Lyman 358156 and based on what has been recomended and the lauditory comments that I've read, I believe that this may be the second mould on the list.  I also found a gentleman today that will make a hollowpoint modification.  This in the hollowpoint  configuration in a two cavity mould, one hollowpoint and one flat nosed might make an ideal "end-of-the-world-as-we-know-it mould. 
I had completley forgotten about Aliant 2400, it was the first powder I used for the 44 mags and came to be the only powder that I used for that cal. but I haven't loaded a 44 in 15-20 years.
I still have some win 296 from another project and I always try to have Win 231 on hand but it's starting to look like that may not be one of the better choices.
I did order brass from Starline today and I think it is the first time that I can remember that the manufacturer was cheaper than their distributers. Thanks for the tip, Dale
Still looking for handles, MidSouth, Midway and the other biggie (brain fart) are all showing them on backorder.  I guess that I am going to have to get them from Lyman at an additional 10+$. I didn't even find any on eBay!
Bill, I'll check with Veral about the lube.  I have no complaints about the performance of the moly, just the mess but I still haven't made up my mind about moly yet maybe another decade or to. 
OLDHand, nice shooting!  I'm learning that life is too short to do all the things I would really like to do. A special thanks for the words of encouragement.
But anyway there she is so far and I'm looking forward to this.

[ButlerFord45]

Just went to check on what powders that might be appropriate were still on the bench, WW231, WW296, 2400, Bullseye and Titegroup there's still Bluedot and Greendot as well.  Looks like my loading and casting benches took it rough during my sybatical!
Clean up and a new light seem to be in order as well!

[ButlerFord45]

Well, I'm ready to go except for handles, none of the mail order folks had them in stock, so I ordered them from Lyman, I'm not pleased with those folks, I believe that if they didn't have them, they should have let me know, anyway after waiting two weeks I called to ask the status of my order.  The gentleman that answered the phone sounded like someone had just pissed in his Cheereos, so I turned on my friendliest Good Morning, Sir, my name is..., Is it possible to check on the status of my order?  I have the order number in front of me if that would be any easier for you."  Well, it worked, nice guy afterall.  Seems that they don't have any and won't get anymore until some time in January.  Back to eBay, someone had a "buyitnow" set for about the same price as Lyman, I hope he's quicker with his delivery than Lyman!

Have another question, upon recomendations received here, I have a 358156 on the way.  I've never used a gascheck.  I know my choices are Lyman and Hornady, slip on or crimp on.  Which do I want, and why?

Anyway just letting you know that I'm not procrastinating but waiting on necessary parts.

BF

[Graybeard]

I can loan you a set of handles until you get some if you keep being held up on that Bill. I won't sell them but will loan them to you.

[ButlerFord45]

GB, thanks for the offer but I think I have a set on the way.

[John Traveler]

For your gas-checked 35816 by all means, use the HORNADY gas checks!  That crimp on feature is very usefull, and I have never seen a recovered bullet with the Hornady gas check missing.  On the other hand, the Lyman brand routinely comes off, sometimes in the barrel, and that can be disastrous.

[Graybeard]

Strange. I've NEVER loaded anything but a Lyman GC on my 358156 bullets and so far never saw one without it when I found the bullet. Now granted I have found only a tiny percentage of what I've shot but they held on just fine. Never ever had one stick in bore.

[Autorim]

I have fired thousands of the 358156 with gas checks - still do. How would one come off in the bore when the pressure behind the gas check is pushing the bullet out of the barrel? If it ever happened to me, I did not discover it.

[Mikey]

Hey Butlerford - while you are waiting for those handles, buy yourself 1 or 200 200 gn swc slugs from either Mt. Baldy Bullets or Colorado Cast Bullets and load them over 12.4 gns of WW296.  You will have to crimp them over the front leading band as they are even longer for the bore than the 170s.  I expect your pressures with that load will be around 35K CUP, which is down from the 42.5K CUP of the 158 gn cast swc WW puts out.  I think that gets you around 1335'/sec. 

If you want something slower, you can use 5.5 of 231 dfor 1080'/sec but that is higher pressure than the 296 load.  Also, 5.5 of Unique gets you about 950'/sec and that is a accurate load.  12.2 gns of IMR 4227 gets that slug moving to 1000'/sec.  HTH.  Mikey.

[ButlerFord45]

I promise I will do better when it is warmer and the sun is shining.
But anyway here is my starting point.  Is it "as new in box" no, but it isn't bad.