New project

[ButlerFord45]

I've decided that this winters project is going to be a 6" S&W M19 and cast bullets.  I don't need to feel the earth shake when I let the hammer fall but at least some authority.
I'm looking seriously at the Lyman 358429, it's a 170g Keith semi wadcutter. 
This project is at the research and procurement phase.  I already have a few hundred pounds of wheelweights and 4-5 hundred pounds of plumbing lead on hand. The Mod 19 has been found and the deal is done, just waiting for the funds/pistol swap.
I have located a 4 holer mould but can't find handles. Which brings the first question: Do RCBS handles fit Lyman moulds and if so, is there a particular model I need to look for?
I've learned something else as well!  I don't know if it is our new President-Elect or some other reason but new brass is hard to find!  I have some 357 and 38+P brass but would like to start with 500 to 1000 pieces of new.  I've never tried Starline so I thought I'd give it a try if I can find a source that's not sold out.
I have been a ladle caster for a few years but I think it's time to move on at least into the 20th century, of the Lee, Lyman, RCBS bottom pours, is their any real significant difference worth choosing one over the other?
Though I will slug cylinder throats and barrel, I'm betting sizing to .358 is going to be about right but if not I'll use that size die for other pistols and get the appropriate size die.
I'd like for anyone that would care to, to join in on this project as much as a forum would allow and I always like to show off if it goes well or have somewhere to seek help if it doesn't.  I never fail to listen to good advice or suggestions wether I heed them or not. I'm sure I'm going to need a bit of guidance from those of you that have already traveled this particular path.
Second question:  What kind of performance can I expect with this bullet?  I'm thinking of at or about 1100fps?
From what I can tell so far Lil Gun does this with the lowest chamber pressures. What can you tell me about the actual performance and characteristics of this powder?  Would 231 be better, worse or just another powder? Any other suggestions?
From what I can find out this bullet is a bit long but the cylinders in the 19 are long enough to accommodate it?
If 1100fps is doable (in respect to longevity of the gun) it is on the upper end of wheel weight velocity without a little help ie. adding linotype or heat treating?
Number three:  I have mostly used homemade lubes and I will admit with some success but I'm tired of that particular mess!  I did try some Lyman molylube with some 45 acp's and it worked well as a lube but was soft and messy.  Lube recommendations?
Any suggestions before I get any further?
I'm posting this in 3 forums because it is specific to all three-S&W, Casting and Reloading, so Bill, I hope you don't kick me out!
Thanks in advance
BF

[stimpylu32]

BF

Very good choice for both gun and bullets , have always been a fan of the Keith style slugs , as they have always shot great in anything I shot them in .

As for powders you may want to look at SR 4756 and PB , both from IMR , even with Max loads they run around the speed your looking for ( 1000 to 1100 fps ) and at about 70% of the pressure of Lil-gun .

Your lead mix should be just fine for these speeds , I push a 30 to 1 mix in my 41GNR to over 1200 fps with out a leading problem and no gas check .

Lastly , for bottom dump pots , I like my Lee's and at around a price that's well below the others , you could burn out 3 lee's in 20 years and still have less invested than one of the others .

stimpy

[bilmac]

Stimpys ideas are right on as far as the pots, there isn't anything wrong with Lee's. I think you will need to get the tall model to run your 4 hole mold, and that way you won't have any trouble using it for your fishing sinker molds. 2400 is a hard powder to beat for the 357 unless it might be W296, but it isn't quite as versatile.

I have the first edition of the Lyman cast bullet handbook. It says of 358429 "Designed by Elmer Kieth for 38 sp and 357 Mag." It doesn't say what the old man used in 357, but it shows a 2400 load for the 38 that I have used for years, that I sure wouldn't repeat here, someone would stick it in a J frame and have dynamite in his hand.

[Skip_B]

Stimpy does have a good idea on the pots. I have two Lee's, one 10# and one 20# both bottom pour models. The work fine and are inexpensive.

The lead you have will easily handle the 1000-1100fps range. Straight wheel weights will do that with a plain base, no problem. I load some 357mags for my wife's M586, which in my opinion is better suited for the caliber than a M29, with my H&G #290BB, 160gr SWC with a large grease groove, that get right at 1300fps. They are wheel weights with about 10% Linotype added to make them just a touch harder. The powder I use is like Stimpy suggest too, SR4756. I use a load that is from the Speer #8 for it. It gets right at 1600fps out of her Marlin Cowboy Special too.

I know the load is over what Hodgdon/IMR suggest today BUT, I used there data that said I would get that velocity and barely got over 900fps out of the M586, which has a 6" barrel too.

Here is a picture of the bullets just after casting:



Here are some that are loaded and ready to go!




And here is what she shoots them out of!


Keep us posted!

[Skip_B]

p.s. On the Lil' Gun. I have used it but not enough to comment about. High velocities with less pressure would be a good thing. I would just wonder about consistency at that lower pressure.

FWIW

[Skip_B]

I was going through my stuff on the web and found this video of me shooting that load out of her handgun!

It's kind of funny!

[ButlerFord45]

 I've done a bit of net searching for information on the Lyman 358156 and based on what has been recomended and the lauditory comments that I've read, I believe that this may be the second mould on the list.  I also found a gentleman today that will make a hollowpoint modification.  This in the hollowpoint  configuration in a two cavity mould, one hollowpoint and one flat nosed might make an ideal "end-of-the-world-as-we-know-it mould.  
I had completley forgotten about Aliant 2400, it was the first powder I used for the 44 mags and came to be the only powder that I used for that cal. but I haven't loaded a 44 in 15-20 years.
I still have some win 296 from another project and I always try to have Win 231 on hand but it's starting to look like that may not be one of the better choices.
I did order brass from Starline today and I think it is the first time that I can remember that the manufacturer was cheaper than their distributers. Thanks for the tip, Dale
Still looking for handles, MidSouth, Midway and the other biggie (brain fart) are all showing them on backorder.  I guess that I am going to have to get them from Lyman at an additional 10+$. I didn't even find any on eBay!
Bill, I'll check with Veral about the lube.  I have no complaints about the performance of the moly, just the mess but I still haven't made up my mind about moly yet maybe another decade or to.  
OLDHand, nice shooting!  I'm learning that life is too short to do all the things I would really like to do. A special thanks for the words of encouragement.
I had to go check what I have in inventory that might be appropriate and found 231, 296, 2400, Bullseye, Titegroup and Bluedot.  With more than two recomendations for the 4756, I may have to give it a try, I think that the 231 and Titegroup are going to be out of the running but may give them a try anyway.  I'm not sure that the 296 is not going to be too limiting in its effective pressure range to be a viable option.  I haven't researched enough yet.
Skip, the YL's pistol looks REALLY nice!
But anyway there she is so far and I'm looking forward to this.

[ButlerFord45]

Skip, thanks for posting the video, enjoyed it.
Stimp, pots and moly are the two things in shooting that I've just never come to grips with yet, I've spent enough time pondering which of the common three that I could have worn out one of each.

[Sweetwater]

Great project!! I went back into my IHMSA notes and found my loads for my Model 19 6" S&W.
Your two choices of molds were what I used. Loved them both!!
The model 19, at least mine, had a long-enough cylinder to accomodate the 358429. They would not fit in my model 27, so I used 38spl brass and heavy 38spl loads. Do not use 357 loads in 38spl brass! I used lube made by a guy in Shoshone, Wy back then. It worked. I did not have a chronograph at that time so can't comment on the velocity. It was enough for antelope in season and the 200m rams on the Silohouette range. Lyman's Cast Bullet Handbook is a great resource! I used 10gr of 2400 a lot and ran a bunch at 12gr of 2400.
I used some 4756, but was never comfortable with it as it was too close to 4759 and typos exist, so I shied away from using it. The old loads published by Elmer Keith using 2400 will really rattle a model 19. They are just too light for all that crash and bang! LOL

Lyman's CBH lists 11.8gr of H110 as a potential accuracy load. Velocity is given as 1037fps from a 4" vented barrel. My book is Copyright 1980, printed in 1989. There is most likely newer data available.

Remember, typos exist, so use all data with caution, cross-checking, and cross-referencing.

Regards,
Sweetwater

[ButlerFord45]

Sweetwater, thanks for the thoughts, that's going to be the 3rd edition of the Lyman manual, fifth printing.  Mine is same edition 10 print and that was in '99 and the data appears to be the same, as best as I can tell the third edition is still the current one.  Makes me feel better that someone I can converse with has tried this pistol/bullet combination before. I always wanted a 27, they were just out of my league but I made do with a 28 quite well.  Rugers had nothing on the N frame Smiths.  Personal opinion.

[Graybeard]

I keep trying to recall what the heck it was I could not make the 358429 work in using .357 cases. I don't remember ever having a 27 or 28 so am pretty sure it had to be a K or L frame S&W. I did not remember to try loading one up today to see if it fit. CRS don't ya know.

[ButlerFord45]

Not a problem GB, I suffer the same malady.  If it wont fit in the 19 I bet it would be a dandy in a .38.  Everything that I've been able to find indicates that the chambers of the 19 are long enough but not so on the N frames. We'll see.
So far I think I have a handle on most of the equipment except lube and pot, I'll check with Veral about the lube.
Thanks for checking on me.

Bill

[Graybeard]

Reading this thread again reminded me I was supposed to do this and had not so I stopped and went out to check. I tried just opening the mouth of a case to let a bullet (unsized or lubed) be seated than crimped it. That one did not go in the cylinder perhaps due to me not sizing the case.

I then noticed that in my die box I had a case with a bullet already seated. In fact I had one with a 358429 and a 358156 both in there to aid in setting up the seater for those two bullets along with a couple more I have in there.

I took that one and it did easily fit into my S&W 66 6" cylinder. For some strange reason the one with the 358156 did not. I think likely again because that case might not have been sized enough prior to seating the bullet.

I compared the over all cartridge length to cylinder and it fit but man it was a close fit. I'd guess that if a bullet jumped more than say 0.005" it likely would lock up the gun so for sure ya best use a good crimp to hold them in place. The 358156 makes up into a good deal shorter cartridge and leaves a good deal of room for a bullet that jumped crimp to not lock up the gun but the 358429 just does not leave any margin for a bullet jumping crimp to not lock up the gun. It fits but I seriously doubt there was even 0.010" to end of cylinder.

It is a good bullet and has the advantage of not requiring a gas check like my old favorite the 358156 and as I recall they shot fine in all my guns I've used them in. But nothing repeat NOTHING has ever outshot the 358156 in the many S&W revolvers I've owned and that includes jacketed bullets.

Hollow point bullets are a pain in the rear to cast due to the extra piece and extra step needed with them. Unless you cast them kinda soft they won't expand properly anyway and will just blow off the tip rather than expanding. To me they are more trouble than they are worth and aren't what cast bullets are about which is penetration with a decent size meplat to give the killing effectiveness. I'll personally pass on cast HPs.

Four cavity moulds sure make bullets a lot faster than do single or double cavity moulds and when available are what I generally always go for in Lyman moulds. I wish RCBS made four cavity as I actually like RCBS moulds a bit better than Lyman but still prefer those four cavity moulds for volume production.

Lee makes a pretty good looking bullet in a six cavity mould and it has no shoulder as do SWCs like the two Lyman bullets we're discussing. Not an important matter for your S&W 19 but if you ever wanted to use them in a lever rifle it might be as I've found that SWC bullets often hang up rather than feed smoothly in lever guns. Dunno if you are planning on using a lever rifle or not but being as you are a CAS sorta guy thought that might be a future plan. I have a Rossi .357 I really need to break out and do some shooting with.

[ButlerFord45]

Thanks for this Bill, it's heartining to know that it does fit!  The mould, top punch and 358 size die arrived this morning.  I was checking the inventory last night and found some 2400, however, to the best of my recollection I bought it in 1980 so I guess I'll just fertilize Deb's flowers with it.  Stopped by the local pawn/gun shop yesterday to make sure he had faxed the FFL for the pistol, he hadn't.  Great guy, do anything he can for you but his memory is a little on the short side. LOL  I contacted the guy with the gun this am. and he has the FFL in hand so we are just waiting on the mail.  It is described as "as new in the box" yeah, well, we'll see.  As long as it is in decent shape, I'll be happy.  Not really a bargin but conciderably lower price than I've seen around here lately in worse condition.
I underestimated the budget for this project, things have gone up even more than I had anticipated but it shouldn't have been such a supprise considering that a bag of chilled magnum shot hit 50$ here this spring.
So it was the pot that got it's corners cut, got the LEE.  If it doesn't work right, I'll just plug the bottom and use it as a feeder pot for a Lyman at a later date.
The only thing not taken care of so far is the lube but will work on that today.  I still have some Felix if I get caught with my pants down. Going to try some of Verals and there is another, LarsLube that looks promising.
Yeah, I found out a long time ago that semi-wadcutters don't cycle the best through my old Rossi Puma that I got to go along with the pair of Rugers.
Once again, thanks for your time and sharing of your experience, I know you are a busy man.

BF

[bilmac]

I wouldn't throw away powder that is only 20 years old.

[ButlerFord45]

I wouldn't throw away powder that is only 20 years old.

Thanks for the thought but it's nearer 30.  It's my understanding that there is a significant difference in older 2400 and the current production and I'd really hate to find the "Dream Load" only to run out of a powder that is no longer available and to keep from an accidental mix of the two, I'd prefer to just get rid of the old.  When I start a new "project" I will start with a pound of different powders till I find the one that I like best then obtain the largest container I can afford of that powder because every time I change lots of the same powder I back down the load and start again hoping that there is minimal difference in the lots. Unfortunately many times there will be just enough difference that performance has changed in some way or the other.  The 2400 I have is a result of this process but I traded off most of my DA wheel guns to get SA's and Auto's. and havent used it anymore since.

[Steve P]

I have a S&W 19 with 2" barrel.  I use the 170 lyman bullet, Lyman orange magic lube, and 5 grains of Unique.  Very mild load out of my snubby and clean to shoot.  When I go for the gusto, I use either the RCBS 180 grain silhouette bullet or the RCBS 158 SWC.  Both are gas check, use the same Orange magic lube, but have 2400 pushing them along.   

If you find the brass getting a little hard to exctract from the cylinder, you are either getting too hot, or a little too dirty.  A little change in powder volume should get you right on a perfect load (if you have the accuracy you desire.)

Have fun with your project.

Steve

[Sweetwater]

Just a thought or two -
I agree with GB on the 358429 filling the cylinder, but I don't believe you'll have a problem crimping them sufficiently to hold at your stated velocity.

That 358156 even shot well in my model 19 unchecked, though not as good as checked - and it is indeed super accurate. Ray Thompson knew what he was doing when he designed that one!

I've popped a lot of tin cans with 20-30yearold powder. Loaded them and set them aside for fun shooting, not for accuracy shooting. I had plenty of brass and bullets and everything was cheaper then.

I've used my Lee pot to melt wheelweights and it is a mess cleaning it so debris doesn't hold the bottom pour plug from seating properly. Next thing you know, lead is pouring all over and all you can do is catch it in a pan. The answer is melting your salvage in any cast iron pot and clean(flux) the lead properly before pouring your ingots (I use a muffin pan). Your Lee pot stays clean and the bottom pour plug seats very nicely (doesn't leak). I've had my Lee pot about 15years and it was way used when I got it. It's ok.

My Mom found an old cast iron soup kettle in a flea market for next to nothing and it holds about 20lbs of wheelweights. Cleaning it is a quick scrap with a choreboy and some hot water. Simple.

This has been a fun memory. Thanks for allowing me to share my escapades.

Regards,
Sweetwater

[bilmac]

Sweetpea

I keep a screwdriver close at hand when pouring from a bottom draw pot. If it starts leaking, I engage the plug rod and twist it back and forth a few times and the leak always stops.

[ButlerFord45]

Well, I'm ready to go except for handles, none of the mail order folks had them in stock, so I ordered them from Lyman, I'm not pleased with those folks, I believe that if they didn't have them, they should have let me know, anyway after waiting two weeks I called to ask the status of my order.  The gentleman that answered the phone sounded like someone had just pissed in his Cheereos, so I turned on my friendliest Good Morning, Sir, my name is..., Is it possible to check on the status of my order?  I have the order number in front of me if that would be any easier for you."  Well, it worked, nice guy afterall.  Seems that they don't have any and won't get anymore until some time in January.  Back to eBay, someone had a "buyitnow" set for about the same price as Lyman, I hope he's quicker with his delivery than Lyman!

Have another question, upon recomendations received here, I have a 358156 on the way.  I've never used a gascheck.  I know my choices are Lyman and Hornady, slip on or crimp on.  Which do I want, and why?

Anyway just letting you know that I'm not procrastinating but waiting on necessary parts.

BF

[Graybeard]

I've always used Lyman and am happy with them.

Bill if you need it I can loan you a set of handles until you pick up some. I don't wanna sell them but don't mind loaning them to ya to get you started if you can't locate any.

[bilmac]

I have some 30 cal hornaday gas checks the are a very tight fit on my 31141 bullet. This is the first time I've noticed such a hard to seat check, but all my previous GCs may have been lyman.

[ButlerFord45]

I've always used Lyman and am happy with them.

Bill if you need it I can loan you a set of handles until you pick up some. I don't wanna sell them but don't mind loaning them to ya to get you started if you can't locate any.

Bill, thanks for the offer, with just a little luck, I should have a set here by the time yours would arrive.  Should something occur that this is not the case, I may be back hat-in-hand.

BF

[Graybeard]

No problem Bill if something falls thru on it let me know and I'll be happy to send it along your way until you can get one of your own. I think I have three of them if memory serves me correctly (which it often doesn't these days)  and for sure won't be casting anything before warm weather returns and who knows maybe not even then. I've not cast a bullet in perhaps five years tho I am way over due to get some cast as I am gonna run out of bullets one of these days otherwise.

[rickt300]

The most rounds fired thru all my different 357's including several M19 Smiths has been the 358429 on top of 6.5 grains of Unique. Gets pretty close to your velocity range and always shot good for me. Lately though I have been using Universal Clays as it burns cleaner. My real snivel using 2400, either 4227's and 296 is the noise level. It's fine on the range when you can wear ear plugs but out in the field one shot can ring your ears for days. They are better rifle powders.

[ButlerFord45]

Well it looks like I've several powders to try and three different bullets not to mention playing with the alloy.  The final goods should be here tomorrow or Saturday. That's the way things normally go because I work 12 hr. shifts Sunday, Monday and Tuesdays and there isn't much time in those days to get much of anything done.  Just checked Wednesday's forcast: Partly Cloudy with high of 52°.  Looks like it may be a good day to try a cylinder full or 3 down range!
Thanks for all the help and suggestions.  I'll be back with results and more questions.

Wasn't a good picture to start with but went south when I resized it!  Anyway here's my starting point:

[Sweetwater]

They sure are pretty! Mine was nickel plated. Gave it to my 2nd ex-wife in the divorce. That loss was easier to live with than what she wanted!!! LOL!
It's 28 degrees and 16 inches of new snow on my pickup. Be firing up the snowblower in a bit.

Merry Christmas

Regards,
Sweetwater

[Badnews Bob]

Sure is a fine looking revolver, I should have my new project next week, A Ruger 7 1/2 inch .357 maximum, I hope to getting it shooting well with 180 & 200 grain hardcast. Its nice that you can share your projects here. More fun than doing it alone.

[ButlerFord45]

Sure is a fine looking revolver, I should have my new project next week, A Ruger 7 1/2 inch .357 maximum, I hope to getting it shooting well with 180 & 200 grain hardcast. Its nice that you can share your projects here. More fun than doing it alone.

Thanks Badnews.  You're absolutely correct, it is a lot more fun when you can share the projects!  Will be waiting news about yours!