Author Topic: What motor for windmill (Read 12851 times)

Badnews Bob · « **Reply #30 on:** December 08, 2008, 03:05:48 PM »

Those are called slip rings and brush block assy. We use them on helicopter rotor heads, (I wonder if I could find some of them surplus.), Dose anyone know how to figure out what size fan you need for various wind speeds? If that squirrel cage got to whizzing around in a storm it might blow apart without a way to furl it or brake it.

My buddies back up just went down for bad batteries I can get that one for free I am sure, That should run a small radio or maybe charge your cell phone wouldn't it.

This is fun Matt I see junk piles dancing in my head.

What if you put a drill motor on a pole you could raise and lower easy, Half hour in the wind and you caps are charged.

burntmuch · « **Reply #31 on:** December 08, 2008, 04:39:53 PM »

would a squirrel cage fan catch enough wind to turn it

billy_56081 · « **Reply #32 on:** December 08, 2008, 04:42:14 PM »

Quote from: burntmuch on December 08, 2008, 04:39:53 PM

would a squirrel cage fan catch enough wind to turn it

I dunno, we'll have to try it.

Matt · « **Reply #33 on:** December 08, 2008, 05:34:29 PM »

Quote from: burntmuch on December 08, 2008, 04:39:53 PM

would a squirrel cage fan catch enough wind to turn it

Yes they will and quite well even... The one I am looking to use has a diameter of 36" and is about 42" tall when stood on its end. It is out of a big commercial ventilation system. The way I have decided to build mine is with a cage in the form of a triangle it will have 3 uprights one at each point of the triangle connected to a top and bottom plate with a bearing on each end to keep it true and prevent it from going crazy in high winds. Also one of the nice things about these dc motors is using a rheostat and several ceramic resistors you can build a brake to prevent damage in high winds.

Matt

phalanx · « **Reply #34 on:** December 08, 2008, 05:49:52 PM »

The Alternator is a good idea , but like Matt is saying the PMG ( Permanent Magnet Generator) is the simplest way to go.
It all depends on what your wanting to power ,your wind mill, or wind generator isnt going to run much on its own.
It is primarily to charge battery's that can produce sufficient Amperage to do any real work.
Wind speeds will also cause surges and brown outs so the Motor/Generator needs to be separated from the actual load.
But this is all VDC ,It would run Incandescent lights but that is about all.
To have a stable source of VAC going into something like your house you then would need to come off the battery's into an inverter.
The inverter fires a series of Triachs and mimics VAC sign wave.
Except it is really square wave ,but your house will never know the difference ,some computers may though.
A voltage regulator will monitor the Battery's and regulate how much charge is needed to go back into the battery's to replace what is depleted.
An Alternator is good as the Windmill gen. also ,but like Matt pointed out it will be producing VAC ,but it is rectified into VDC for the Battery's.
Here your regulator is in the alternator ,so it will know right at the source when to open up to a full charge.
But the DC Motor/gen. is the way to go i would think ,or at least it would be for me,it makes no sense to go from AC to dc ,back to AC. When you could go with DC to AC just one time with what Matt is saying.
Remember ,AC to DC is straight across through a Bridge rectifier. In other words if you have 50 VAC through the Rectifier you have 50 VDC on the other side.
The other way is the trick ,it has to be produced , DC is Natures kitchen ,AC is produced but AC is easy to use in transformers and can be transmitted long distances through a step down process into your home.
But it takes 2 amps of DC to produce one Amp of AC through an inverter ,that is why people who use an inverter in their car and overload it end up losing an Alternator.
Less climbing the windmill to effect repairs is always better done on the ground.
The wind then wouldn't matter as far as speed , the voltage is going to be up and down but the voltage is only going to be conducive to the amps needed to charge.
If you want a complete system you will have to have the battery's ,no way around it.

Matt · « **Reply #35 on:** December 08, 2008, 06:23:16 PM »

All great points phalanx, the dc generators may power a few dc items but should never be used without a battery as it would put way to much load on the generator and cause it to fail permaturely. The reason I posted about the UPS's or Battery Backups for computers is most often they produce a Pure Sine Wave already because of the intended use is for electronics.

As a side note I also intend to use the motor assembly used to raise and lower the treadmill to raise and lower the wind generator but will have a manual system as a back up. There are many parts in these things that can come in handy and they are often cheap so grab a couple if you get a chance.

Matt · « **Reply #36 on:** December 08, 2008, 06:36:12 PM »

Quote from: Badnews Bob on December 08, 2008, 03:05:48 PM

This is fun Matt I see junk piles dancing in my head.

Yeah I love surplus sales and junk stores... there is allways a little gold nugget waiting to be plucked up and taken home... and most often for next to nothing if your lucky

Quote from: Badnews Bob on December 08, 2008, 03:05:48 PM

What if you put a drill motor on a pole you could raise and lower easy, Half hour in the wind and you caps are charged.

I am having problems with my caps leaking so I think I am going to try some different ones... but I bet if you could overcome the drag from the gear reduction in the chuck assembly then it would spin like a top in high winds...

oh and as to the brake well you can do that pretty easy with a dc motor/generator with only a rheostat and a few resistors

Matt

Matt · « **Reply #37 on:** December 08, 2008, 09:13:44 PM »

Here is a video on squirrel cage fans being used.

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burntmuch · « **Reply #38 on:** December 09, 2008, 12:17:51 AM »

Just watched the video. Im thinking this is gonna be easy. That was spinning pretty good for 7mph winds. Im in the middle of my overtime season & hunting season, so its gonna be a month or so before I can start on this. Ive already got a couple deap cell batteries & a couple inverters. all Im gonna nee is the suirrell cage & motor. I think the words out on the treadmill motors , cause Ive called on a couple, People are snatching them up. Thanks Guys, this is awesome information. Jay

Badnews Bob · « **Reply #39 on:** December 09, 2008, 03:17:02 AM »

The small electric RC airplane may have just the system, very low drag and already have a prop system, I have some elec RC car stuff here not being used if I can find a way to spin them I may have three or four in hand.

I am an avionics tech, so electricity is my bread and butter, I can read prints, build,i install, trouble shoot, modify and repair. but I don't design. Do you have links to some prints on how to build some of they devices to control these contraptions?

phalanx · « **Reply #40 on:** December 11, 2008, 11:44:56 AM »

You have a real nice palace here Matt ,im impressed.
I thought of using the UPS route ,but the battery's for them cost more than a new unit if you have to replace them.
This is the trouble people run into with an Electric Fork Lift , I took the traction motor out of one of these and it would be an Awesome Generator for a Wind Mill.
Right now i am using an Alternator out of an Ambulance ,then the bridge.
Its worked for around three years now so that's a plus.
But it was free and we all love free stuff.

Matt · « **Reply #41 on:** December 13, 2008, 09:02:57 PM »

Quote from: phalanx on December 11, 2008, 11:44:56 AM

I thought of using the UPS route ,but the battery's for them cost more than a new unit if you have to replace them.

I will not be using the batteries that come in the UPS's. I plan to use a battery bank of deepcycle gel batteries or possibly golf cart batteries. I think about 20 batteries wired in series parallel for 10 banks of 2 @ 24 volts or 5 banks of 4 if I use the 6v golf cart batteries.
I have a good friend who owns a battery company and will sell them to me at his cost which is about 40% of retail. I plan on using a lot of battery isolators so that I can charge back at 12v which will be easy to sustain even in low winds or even lower winds if I go the 6v route. I don't like having to keep the acid level up so I really want to go the gel route.

Quote from: phalanx on December 11, 2008, 11:44:56 AM

This is the trouble people run into with an Electric Fork Lift , I took the traction motor out of one of these and it would be an Awesome Generator for a Wind Mill.

I have a forklift traction motor that I plan to use in a EV as soon as I get time and money to do so... GB says I am crazy and does not think it will work but those things have a lot of power to them.

The motors are not permanent magnet motors so I would not want to use one as a generator because you would have to energize the stator to get it to work which requires some of the power you are trying to make.

Quote from: phalanx on December 11, 2008, 11:44:56 AM

Right now i am using an Alternator out of an Ambulance ,then the bridge.
Its worked for around three years now so that's a plus.
But it was free and we all love free stuff.

Free stuff is always great...

Matt

billy_56081 · « **Reply #42 on:** December 14, 2008, 04:54:04 AM »

I'm thinking 12 volt is the way to go, you can either use products that are made to run off of 12v DC or you can get inverters everywhere to step it up to 120 vac. Deep cycle marine batteries work great for things like this. I am going to build a permanent magnet generatr and will test it out using it in out ice fishing house to power the lighting and TV.

Badnews Bob · « **Reply #43 on:** December 25, 2008, 08:42:57 AM »

I am not haveing any luck finding cheap or junk treadmills, Matt where do you useally find yours?

Matt · « **Reply #44 on:** December 27, 2008, 05:42:53 AM »

Quote from: Badnews Bob on December 25, 2008, 08:42:57 AM

I am not haveing any luck finding cheap or junk treadmills, Matt where do you useally find yours?

Salvation Army or Goodwill is a great place to look, I have access to new motors from surplus and overstocks. If you can not find one let me know as I still have 10 or 15 that I can sell.

Matt

Badnews Bob · « **Reply #45 on:** December 27, 2008, 11:15:04 AM »

Thanks Matt, I'll look around some more and if I can't find one I'll drop you a PM.

dpe.ahoy · « **Reply #46 on:** January 10, 2009, 04:22:48 PM »

This is a great site! I been looking through some old Mother Earth News to find articals for some kind of wind power. I have some land that I would have to run a half mile of cable under ground to get power to where I want to put a hunting shack. This is perfect! MORE, MORE! DP

243dave · « **Reply #47 on:** January 11, 2009, 05:21:15 PM »

I've been following this topic and picked up a couple junk tread mills today. In the weeks to come I'll probably be asking for advise for my project. Its gonna be fun. Now all I need is a squirrel cage. By the way, when I find one, how do I get that squirrel outta there

Dave

Badnews Bob · « **Reply #48 on:** January 11, 2009, 06:10:11 PM »

Ya gotta lure'em out with nuts, then whackem real good with a stick.

Graybeard · « **Reply #49 on:** January 11, 2009, 06:25:19 PM »

Wal what a dummy yew iz. Iffen ya take the dang squirrel out how ya expect to make it turn?

burntmuch · « **Reply #50 on:** January 12, 2009, 12:39:01 AM »

243 Dave.I got my squirrel cage on Ebay for 15 bucks. Ive been looking for a motor. Every time I call on a junk treadmill. They re gone. I think the words out on the motors in them.

243dave · « **Reply #51 on:** January 13, 2009, 07:12:05 AM »

Yesterday I pulled the motors from the treadmills and hauled the rest to the dump. One motor was a 95 vdc and the other a 130 vdc. My plans are something like Billy has with his fishing house and use a marine battery and a inverter for a small tv and lighting. I'm wondering which motor would be best for my application ? The wind here in this part of NC is not particually strong or reliable. My guess is the smaller 95 vdc would be easier to turn and may be better for my project even though it is less powerful than the 130 vdc. What do you fellers think ? Next I'll be looking for a squirrel cage. Dave

Matt · « **Reply #52 on:** January 14, 2009, 07:24:37 AM »

Quote from: 243dave on January 13, 2009, 07:12:05 AM

Yesterday I pulled the motors from the treadmills and hauled the rest to the dump. One motor was a 95 vdc and the other a 130 vdc. My plans are something like Billy has with his fishing house and use a marine battery and a inverter for a small tv and lighting. I'm wondering which motor would be best for my application ? The wind here in this part of NC is not particually strong or reliable. My guess is the smaller 95 vdc would be easier to turn and may be better for my project even though it is less powerful than the 130 vdc. What do you fellers think ? Next I'll be looking for a squirrel cage. Dave

I would use both... in low winds you are going to want as much power as you can get and will need as many turbines as possible. You will generate about the same from each if your results mirror mine on the 90v vs 120v. I am working on the voltage regulators for these systems so that you never have to worry about over charging. It will also handle breaking for high winds as well... just as soon as I have it done I will post the plans for it... most should be able to build it.

Matt

243dave · « **Reply #53 on:** January 15, 2009, 02:25:41 AM »

Can't wait for the plans Matt !! I'll have plenty of time starting in March since Freightliner announced they are laying-off a couple thousand workers.

When you do get around to posting those plans make sure you dumb them down to my level(real low).

Dave

Matt · « **Reply #54 on:** January 15, 2009, 08:34:28 AM »

The way I plan on it working will use a one chip regulator that will also have a diode in-line to act as an isolator. The system will be set to charge at 12v, 24v and 36v and will dead short through a 100amp relay at 40v for the break.

I am still working on a way to use a load instead of a dead short for the break but the simulation I am running with Electronics Workbench now shows that the system will be able to handle a dead short without failing. A good example of how it will work will be take any PM dc motor and short the positive and negative together and try to turn it. You should find that you can but it is hard to do. These motors do not produce more than about 15amps so 100amp relay should last for quiet some time.

The break will only engage after the motor exceeds 40v and will disengage when it voltage drops below 40v. The regulator I plan to use can handle up to 96v input so there is no worry of blowing it. The hard part is getting it to trigger at the 40v+ range but should be able to do it with a NO/NC relay. The normally closed loop will handle charging and the normally open loop will handle the break. The relay will trigger the NO loop after the voltage reaches the trigger value (40v) and that will disengage the batteries and engage a dead short.

Hope that makes sense to you but if not just give me a few more days to get the GBO server issues fixed and I will post what I have so far for people to see.

Matt

dpe.ahoy · « **Reply #55 on:** January 18, 2009, 01:44:13 PM »

I donno Matt. I'm a thinkin' you're talkin' dirty with some o them words, maybe if you 'splane it to 243dave, he can translate for me. Now I gotta learn how to use the damn dictionary. Keep it commin', I'll learn. DP

mirage1988 · « **Reply #56 on:** January 18, 2009, 03:10:19 PM »

Maybe instead of wasting that power with a dead short you could power a fan to cool your relay and generator. When tshtf it will create a lot more than 12 volts I'm thinkin!

Lower40 · « **Reply #57 on:** February 12, 2009, 09:30:27 AM »

Quote from: Matt on January 15, 2009, 08:34:28 AM

The way I plan on it working will use a one chip regulator that will also have a diode in-line to act as an isolator. The system will be set to charge at 12v, 24v and 36v and will dead short through a 100amp relay at 40v for the break.

I am still working on a way to use a load instead of a dead short for the break but the simulation I am running with Electronics Workbench now shows that the system will be able to handle a dead short without failing. A good example of how it will work will be take any PM dc motor and short the positive and negative together and try to turn it. You should find that you can but it is hard to do. These motors do not produce more than about 15amps so 100amp relay should last for quiet some time.

The break will only engage after the motor exceeds 40v and will disengage when it voltage drops below 40v. The regulator I plan to use can handle up to 96v input so there is no worry of blowing it. The hard part is getting it to trigger at the 40v+ range but should be able to do it with a NO/NC relay. The normally closed loop will handle charging and the normally open loop will handle the break. The relay will trigger the NO loop after the voltage reaches the trigger value (40v) and that will disengage the batteries and engage a dead short.

Hope that makes sense to you but if not just give me a few more days to get the GBO server issues fixed and I will post what I have so far for people to see.

Matt

Matt:

Been following this thread..thank for starting it. Picked up a treadmill motor today and already have high efficiency nylon turbine blades (60" span) with hub. Been trying to locate a used forklift battery 36 or 48v (& without luck).

Wondering if you made any progress on the "regulator"?

I spun the treadmill motor flywheel with just my fingers and I'm getting 5 volts..pretty neat! My concern is regulating the voltage which potentially will vary in the 0-90vdc range to keep a series of 12vdc deep cycle batteries charged (for now).

Plan on running LED's in my barn..but will experiment with an DC/AC inverter...just to see what AC appliances I can run.

Thanks

Ahshucks · « **Reply #58 on:** February 21, 2009, 01:17:48 PM »

A few guides .... have some more if interested

http://www.yourgreendream.com/diy_instructions.php
http://www.windstuffnow.com/main/vawt.htm
http://www.instructables.com/id/Chispito-Wind-Generator/
http://www.tlgwindpower.com/ametek.htm

I built a small tower this past summer to get the neighbors used to the contraption. Our city Fathers have laws on the books banning such devices in town. No complaints so far, so may just add a genny to the top this Spring.

It is currently a lawn ornament

kawie · « **Reply #59 on:** February 23, 2009, 06:56:13 PM »

could you use a small motor to turn the windmill blades an the motor would feed off the electricity the mill makes.this way if you live in a area that doesnt get alot of wind you would have a motor to turn it at a optimal speed to produce the most desired watts.just a thought an then you could put it anywere and not have to worry about not having wind.thanks kawie