Author Topic: New Kimber 45acp accuarcy in shooting (Read 3469 times)

Jim_Ole_Timer · « **on:** December 04, 2008, 03:15:59 PM »

Hi all

I'm new here, my first post.

I just got my first (Kimber) 45acp a couple weeks ago. I haven't shot 100 rounds yet but getting close. I had to build a barrier to stop the brass so I would't lose it all.

darn thing really kicks out the brass, almost a weapon in itself

I'm not new to shooting by any means. I have a condendor pistol I've shot for years, also quite a few rifles, but this is a whole new deal shooting an auto with very different style sights. I shot about 15 rounds tonight and all except for two fliers my spread was about 6 inches at 25 yards. I just wondered how good you guys do and how long it took you to get there?

Thanks in advance
Jim

Mikey · « **Reply #1 on:** December 05, 2008, 01:16:44 AM »

Hey Jim, welcome aboard. I'm sure sorry to hear all you could get was a 6" group at 25 m with that Kimber - sure sounds like Kimber has done it again, selling guns to guys and not telling them they need to send me the gun first, and all the ammo and extra magazines so I can make sure it shoots right. dang! Gotta talk to those boys out there..........

On a serious note - if you have experience shooting the Contender you should not need much more than a few hundred rounds to familiarize yourself with your Kimber, its functioning and sights. If I know Kimber, the rear sight is either fixed or adjustable and may have a 3 dot system (2 on the rear and one on the front), but the rear sight blade has a nice square notch and the front blade should be nice and square. Just take a 6:00 hold, line them up on a 25m target and work on closing up those groups.

You should also bench the piece to determine its accuracy. If you are not familiar with the 1911, you should bench rest the pistol first and then you will know what the accuracy capability of the pistol is. Your Kimber should give you 2-2.5" groups at 25m, and it shouldn't take you a long time to get there with a Kimber (ps - I use 2 hands now....).

Now, if you don't have lots and lots of time to shoot that thing, I'll do it fer ya........ Jes tryin' to help. Mikey..........................

Savage · « **Reply #2 on:** December 05, 2008, 04:03:48 AM »

For off hand shooting at 25m with an unfamilar pistol, sounds to me as you're doing pretty well! Like Mikey said, bench that pistol to remove as much of the human factor as possible from your groups. I have, and have had a few Kimbers. They are capable of <2" with the right ammo. Excellent choice in a 1911!!
Savage

Jim_Ole_Timer · « **Reply #3 on:** December 05, 2008, 12:55:48 PM »

Thanks for the help guys. To be truthful I've had less then ideal conditions so far for shooting accuracy and have not had the chance to do actual load developement and testing. I did get out the cronograph the other day and it had a really wide spread in velocity, which is probably some of my problem.

Its been colder than a bear here in Michigan and pretty tuff for outside shooting. I'm hoping for some calm days soon when I can shoot and really test loads etc.

I forgot to ask what type loads and bullets you all shoot. So far I have been shooting Remington 185 gr. FMJ over 10 grains of Blue Dot. I have a good idea that may not be a real accurate load. I also need to play with seating depth and a few other things. I have shot some 230 Gr's but I have arthritis in my wrists and its just too painful.

One more question, do you hguys use a pretty hard crimp? I think mine is too loose and may be part of the problem.

Thanks again guys

Savage · « **Reply #4 on:** December 05, 2008, 02:24:20 PM »

Joe,
My standard load for pratice and IDPA is a 200gr LSWC over a 2/10gr below max charge of Bullseye. OAL is 1.123 with a moderate taper crimp. I use the Lee Factory Crimp Die to crimp as a seperate operation from bullet seating. The load makes power factor, and recoil is mild. Accuracy is great-------------my shooting, not so good! Enjoy your Kimber!!!
Savage

Jim_Ole_Timer · « **Reply #5 on:** December 05, 2008, 02:44:55 PM »

Thanks Savage

Are you using a Lee mold to make those? I have a Lyman 225 Gr on order, but wished I had ordered the 185 Gr instead. I'll try the Bullsyes and may get the Lee crimp die, I have a couple for rifle bullets and they work well.

Savage · « **Reply #6 on:** December 05, 2008, 03:29:33 PM »

Jim,
Haven't cast any bullets in many years. I order my bullets usually from:

http://www.missouribullet.com/shop/results.php?pageNum_rsCWResults=4&category=5

I use the IDP #1. 200gr LCWC with a brinell hardness of 18. They also have the 185gr LSWC if you prefer that one. If you are looking for a bullet mold for the 185-200 LSWC, you might find what you want at Midsouth or Midway.
Good shooting!
Savage

Mikey · « **Reply #7 on:** December 07, 2008, 02:45:22 AM »

Jim - I do not belioeve the load combination you use, Blue Dot and a 185 gn bullet, is a good accuracy combination. I would think a powder like WW231, or even Bullseye would give you a more accurate load with those 185 gn slugs.

When you shoot heavier loads you might wish to consider a wrist band of sorts, just something to support your wrist so the heavier recoil doesn't bother you as much.

I crimp my cases but not forcefully. Rather than deal with a 'roll crimp' I use a 45 ACP sizing die, or an old 30-06 sizing die....I seat the bullet to the depth I prefer with a very slight crimp, and after seating I pull the decapping pin from either the 45 ACP die or the 30-06 die and run the loaded cartridge up into the sizing die until it 'taper crimps' the loaded cartridge for about 1/3rd of the case length. Either that or buy a Lee Factory Crimp Die. Good Luck and HTH. Mikey.

williamlayton · « **Reply #8 on:** December 07, 2008, 03:07:21 AM »

One thing for sure. Out of the box you can get the best looking pistola on the market for a production gun.
I like looking at them.
I don't buy for looks though.
The one that I did was run thru Vandenburgs experienced hands. It is a factory engraved Colt--ivory grips. Yummmy!
Blessings

Jim_Ole_Timer · « **Reply #9 on:** December 07, 2008, 08:10:53 AM »

Quote from: Mikey on December 07, 2008, 02:45:22 AM

Jim - I do not belioeve the load combination you use, Blue Dot and a 185 gn bullet, is a good accuracy combination. I would think a powder like WW231, or even Bullseye would give you a more accurate load with those 185 gn slugs.

When you shoot heavier loads you might wish to consider a wrist band of sorts, just something to support your wrist so the heavier recoil doesn't bother you as much.

I crimp my cases but not forcefully. Rather than deal with a 'roll crimp' I use a 45 ACP sizing die, or an old 30-06 sizing die....I seat the bullet to the depth I prefer with a very slight crimp, and after seating I pull the decapping pin from either the 45 ACP die or the 30-06 die and run the loaded cartridge up into the sizing die until it 'taper crimps' the loaded cartridge for about 1/3rd of the case length. Either that or buy a Lee Factory Crimp Die. Good Luck and HTH. Mikey.

Thanks Mikey

I do use a wrist brace, and it does help. The 185 gr bullets are also less painful then the 230's and I believe as accuarte given my current shooting skill.

I will try the Bullseye but it may have to wait until I get my bullet mold as I am scaling back on boughten bullets because of the cost. I'm currently using 10 Gr of B-Dot which is a mid range load and has given me my best off hand groups so far. I still need to do some serious bench work and load developement. I'll also try the 1.123 seating depth when I get my bullet mold but its no good for the 185 hollow points.

My son and I just went out and shot my contendor with .22's. I won't say how good or bad I did, its embarassing. About 30 years ago I shot in local .22 competition and won a trophy my first year, of course that was with a lighter weight gun and younger shoulders

But I'll get there, it just takes time.

Savage · « **Reply #10 on:** December 07, 2008, 10:03:33 AM »

Jim, Hold the phone! The OAL on my loaded 200gr LSWC rounds is: 1.23---------NOT 1.123 as I stated in error previously! Sorry for the error. Sometimes my fingers have a will of their own. Of course my OAL of 1.23 is not the holy grail of OAL !! With my pistols anything that will fit in the mag will cycle. I believe 1.25 is about max that will fit the mag with the bullets I'm using. Can't believe Mikey let me get away with that!!
Savage

Jim_Ole_Timer · « **Reply #11 on:** December 07, 2008, 12:43:43 PM »

Thanks for coming back with the correction. Right now I am using 1.228 with the 185's and believe is working well, the manuel says max is 1.275. I did get my Lee factory crimp die today and may get a chance to load and shoot a few tommorow if I get home from deer hunting in time, but what I really hope for is having to cut one up

Mikey · « **Reply #12 on:** December 07, 2008, 02:46:15 PM »

Aw nuts. Busted again.

Savage · « **Reply #13 on:** December 08, 2008, 01:53:37 AM »

Mikey,
Don't know where that 1.123 came from!!! Must have been a senior moment.

Savage

Jim_Ole_Timer · « **Reply #14 on:** December 20, 2008, 02:42:02 PM »

Quote from: Savage on December 05, 2008, 02:24:20 PM

Joe,
My standard load for pratice and IDPA is a 200gr LSWC over a 2/10gr below max charge of Bullseye. OAL is 1.123 with a moderate taper crimp. I use the Lee Factory Crimp Die to crimp as a seperate operation from bullet seating. The load makes power factor, and recoil is mild. Accuracy is great-------------my shooting, not so good! Enjoy your Kimber!!!
Savage

Weather and time have not allowed me much practive as of yet, but now with the hunting season over I will again have some time, but I was wondering why you recommend Bullseye in place of Blue Dot. Is it because of reduced recoil and if so does it afford the same level of accuracy as Blue Dot which gives me a full case instead of half full case if I use Bullseye. I did try just a few rounds with Bullseye, but my ground is covered with snow making it hard to find brass.

Mikey · « **Reply #15 on:** December 21, 2008, 01:13:47 AM »

Joe: Powders like Bullseye and WW231 burn more consistently than powders like Blue Dot and give more reliable accuracy. Blue Dot has its applications but I have not found one for any sort of target work or any for maximizing accuracy. I have always felt that Blue Dot should be slightly compressed but I haven't worked with that powder in years - I just don't use it much any longer. Mikey.

Savage · « **Reply #16 on:** December 21, 2008, 02:12:05 AM »

Jim, Mikey did a good job of explaining the use of BE vs BD in .45acp. BE has been the accuracy gold standard from many years. I'm sure there are powders that perform as well in the .45acp these days, but if it ain't broke, don't fix it! I'm not a bullseye competitor, so I'll probably never know just how accurate my load is in my guns. All I can say for sure, is when I do my part I hit what I'm aiming at. Another reason I've stuck with BE over the years is the economy of loading. I can load over 1500 rds per pound. That helps keep the cost down so that I can feed my habit without having to rob the nest egg!
Know what you mean about lost brass. It's muddy here, shot an IDPA match yesterday, most of the brass just disappeared into the muck. Perhaps you'll find your brass in the spring. Good luck!
Savage

Jim_Ole_Timer · « **Reply #17 on:** December 22, 2008, 09:54:56 AM »

Wow, thats amazing info guys. Thanks a bunch as I would have never guessed that in a million years. I've done tons of reloading and that simply goes against the most common fact that a full case gives you more consistant accuracy, but you can believe me I will be shooting BE. I just wished I hadn't stocked up on BD so early

Do you find one brand of primer or brass to be better then another or anything else I may not have thought off?

Also can you recommend a load of BE for a Lyman 225 gr cast bullet? As that is the mold I bought and I would like to give it an honest try before looking for another. I have already used some info I found her on making my own cast bullet lube. I'm one of those guys who loves all aspects of shooting and preperation. I do have to do smoe more research yet on which cast bullet lube to use.

Savage · « **Reply #18 on:** December 22, 2008, 12:07:30 PM »

Jim,
I don't normally give load data out on the net. However, this load in well below maximum in all my manuals. I use 4.6grs of BE under both the 200gr LSWC and the 230gr LRNFP. It should work fine with your 225gr. It's accurate enough for my use, most of my .45s will shoot 2-3 inches at 25yds rested using this load with me at the controls. The 230gr load even makes power factor.
I have had good success with Winchester primers and mixed brass. The Blue Dot you have will load up some mean 10mm or 41/44 mag loads. I bet you find a use for it somewhere. Can't help you on the lube issue, I'm sure someone will jump in here shortly.
Good Luck!
Savage

Jim_Ole_Timer · « **Reply #19 on:** December 22, 2008, 12:40:14 PM »

Thanks for the help Savage. I'm pretty careful with loads so I understand the safety concern. Yeah I've got a few other bullets I can use the BD on.

I keep coming up with more and more questions. Do you keep the brass trimmed to a certain length. My guess is that may be critical to a smooth running load.

I might even get a chance to shoot this weekend, that is if I can dig my range out from the snow

Savage · « **Reply #20 on:** December 22, 2008, 02:45:50 PM »

Jim,
I've been reloading since the mid 60s. I have never trimmed a pistol case. I have found that bullet seating and crimping as separate operations keeps um running smooth. I use the Lee Factory Crimp Die on everything I load as my final operation, that includes rifle. I have never had a round fail to chamber using that die.
Savage

Jim_Ole_Timer · « **Reply #21 on:** December 26, 2008, 09:08:16 AM »

I got to shoot a little today. Still need to work on my load.

What kind of powder measure do you all use? I have 2 RCBS, but they don't seem to throw the small charges as accurate as I would like them.

Savage · « **Reply #22 on:** December 26, 2008, 10:17:02 AM »

Jim,
I load 9mm/.40/.45acp on a Load Master progressive press. The power measure on these presses is the "Lee Pro Disk" measure, I believe. It has the micro adjustable charge disk. It is very consistent. I only weigh one charge at the start of loading and one at the end when I refill the primer feeder. So that's about twice every 100 rds. Unless you have a wad gun, and are seriously into bullseye shooting don't wart over a tenth of a grain variation. You'd probably be better off using a dipper to measure your charges. Bottom line: If you're loading for action pistol, or just range ammo it's just not that critical! Good Luck,
Savage
Savage

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #23 on:** December 27, 2008, 01:12:16 AM »

like was said. First ditch the bluedot. its about the worse choise you could make for the acp. Also unless you want to do alot of load developement ditch the 185s. Find a box of 200 swc lead bullets (cast not swaged) and a can of bullseye. Try 4, 4.5, and 5 grains of it and whichever shoots the best stick with. I to dont trim handgun brass. the rcbs is a good measure. I would guess the problem your having is trying to meter bluedot. it just doenst meter well. None of the dot powders do, there just to course. Ive yet to find a kimber that wouldnt do under 2 inchs at 25 yards with a load it liked. Even my 3 inch gun will.

Mikey · « **Reply #24 on:** December 27, 2008, 01:58:19 AM »

Jim - the Lyman book load for that 225 gn slug in 45 acp with BE powder runs 3.5 - 4.7 gns for 702-854'/sec. The listed accuracy load for that bullet is 3.5 of BE for 702'/sec.

HTH. Mikey.

Jim_Ole_Timer · « **Reply #25 on:** December 27, 2008, 12:10:04 PM »

Thanks guys. I guess I need to order a new mold in a 200gr swc. I've already spent too much money but we'll see. I look at it like a mold is equal to 4 boxes of bullets

which lasts no time.

Now for a more personal quesion. What kind of groups do you guys shoot off hand and how much time are you allowed?

I'm not interested in any IDPA comp. but I do love paper punching and might even try silolets if I can master all the other things here.

Also , are there any slower powders that work well?

Savage · « **Reply #26 on:** December 27, 2008, 01:53:40 PM »

Jim,
The actual size of my 25yd off hand groups is classified! Well, lets just say it should remain a secret. My last qualification on the standard police qualification course only required 6 shots in 6 seconds from the 25 yd line. I didn't have anything out of the "8" ring of the B-27 target. I managed to shoot a 487/500 using a Glock. I usually do a little better with one of my 1911s. It's been awhile since I've shot slow fire groups, I guess I need to get out and give it a try. Don't understand why you want to use a slower powder in the ACP, but doubt you'll find one that comes close to the accuracy potential of the BE load. Good luck with that. Now it's time to tell us what size groups you shoot, and what size you're hoping for.
Savage

Jim_Ole_Timer · « **Reply #27 on:** December 29, 2008, 02:15:26 AM »

I really appreciate all the help guys, and believe me I do listen. I'm giving up on the blue dot and will try the BE more, but I honestly think a full case of good powder is beneficial.

I shot in national rifule competition for 5 years and no one would think of anything less then a full case, in fact most were highly compressed charges, of course thats a custom rifle all the way and I realize that the 1911 although a high quality gun is not in the same class.

I ordered the 200 gr SWC mold yesterday, will no doubt take a couple weeks to get it and then to find time to mold and lube the bullets, but its all fun

My groups off hand or benching are not where they need to be yet, the BD as you said just isn't working, but I've not had any better luck with the BE so far. I know I need more practice and will get it.

The wind ruined part of my range this weekend, but still repairable.

Off hand I have not been able to do better then a 6-8 inch group, but improving. Saturday I shot 5 rounds in less then 10 seconds and had three of them almost kissing each other, with a 4th near by and the 5th out of the target which is only a 8 inch square. The big problem is that this bullet/load combo hurts my wrist badly because of the arthritis. I'll get there, you can be sure of as I just don't give up.

I wished my gun had adjustment for windage and elevation. The windage is close after adjusting, but the elevation is too high. Is there an easy fix for this other then adjusting the load speed?

Savage · « **Reply #28 on:** December 29, 2008, 02:32:35 AM »

Jim,
You could go to a taller front sight and file her down a little at a time to get your elevation on for your load. Sounds like you don't have adjustable sights. If you want to get your pistol fine tuned at the ranges you'll be shooting, ya just about have to have an adjustable. The Bo mar or Novac (sp) both work well. Six to eight inch 25yd off hand groups isn't bad. It probably beats 80% of casual pistol shooters, me included. I have to be having a good day to shoot six inch groups off hand with any of my pistols. Now you know why I'm not a bullseye shooter!
Savage

Savage · « **Reply #29 on:** December 29, 2008, 02:43:30 AM »

As an aside: Normally, a powder slow enough to fill a straight wall pistol case will not burn completely in a pistol length barrel. I have been told the turbulence created by the fireball of powder burning outside the barrel as the bullet exits the muzzle, is detrimental to accuracy. It's pretty obvious that it contributes nothing to velocity. Charge density doesn't seem to be a factor here. Maybe some of the serious target shooters can jump in here and school me on this.
Savage