Author Topic: Seller "bronzecannon"-check with me before you send them any money  (Read 4328 times)

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Offline cannonmn

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I'm not here to bash anyone, nor do I care to go into gory details, but suffice it to say that my recent expience with the online cannon seller known as "bronzecannon" aka "Tony Wells" who has a lot of items adv. on GunBroker, was unsatisfactory and costly.  A word to the wise!

Edited by moderator to spell out abbreviation GB to Gunbroker so as to avoid any confusion with GBO Gray Beard's Outdoors...DD

Offline intoodeep

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Re: Seller "bronzecannon"-check with me before you send them any money
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2008, 06:15:16 AM »
PM. Sent.
If you make it idiot proof, then, someone will make a better idiot.


Offline Double D

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Re: Seller "bronzecannon"-check with me before you send them any money
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2008, 06:22:21 AM »
John,

Be specific, no generalities or second hand knowledge, first hand personal experience only, no name calling.  As Joe Friday use to say Just the facts, Ma'am!

Also don't say GB on GBO, Say what it is. 

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Seller "bronzecannon"-check with me before you send them any money
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2008, 06:34:07 AM »
Hmm, am I to understand that someone who is NOT a paid advertiser of this site is selling as a dealer here? Moderators are you aware of this? Please advise. If he is acting as a dealer without being a paid advertiser regardless of how good or bad he is to deal with his needs to END NOW.

OK I've looked up this member and he has made a grand total of three posts at this site and none of them are an attempt to sell anything. This makes me think GB means Gun Broker not Graybeard Outdoors.

That being the case it seems a little inappropriate to be posting here to make negative comments about a person as a dealer who hasn't even attempted to sell here. Now if you've had bad dealings with him and as Doug said wish to report first hand dealings with him that is acceptable but the manner in which this thread started doesn't seem appropriate.


Bill aka the Graybeard
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I am not a lawyer and do not give legal advice.

Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life anyone who believes in Him will have everlasting life!

Offline cannonmn

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Re: Seller "bronzecannon"-check with me before you send them any money
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2008, 12:02:01 PM »
By GB I meant Gunbroker.  I sent money for a cannon that he advertised there, after he got the money he told me the cannon was in some antique shop that had raised the price so now he could not buy it.  He told me he might be getting other cannons he could sell me for my money he already had, but I asked him to refund the money.  He did send over half of it back quickly.  I asked when he would send the rest back and he says he has no idea when that will be.  He had to send the rest of my money, his "commission" on the deal, to his wife who is in another country.  This transpired over about the past month and I am still waitiing for about $2K to be returned, now about three weeks after he said he was unable to get the cannon he sold me.  He had never told me he did not already own the cannon so of coures it was surprising when he said he could not buy it.

If telling other cannoneers about this transaction and this dealer here is inappropriate, please feel free to make this thread disappear.  I did not want others to go through what I am going through with this seller. 

Graybeard or the moderators are welcome to copies of all emails between myself and the seller, which leave no doubt as to what transpired.

In one email I told him one of the things I would do if he did not refund the rest of my money quickly was to communicate what occurred to other cannoneers, so they would be informed of his business methods.  He wrote back that he would not mind if I did that, so here it is.

Offline Double D

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Re: Seller "bronzecannon"-check with me before you send them any money
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2008, 12:44:39 PM »
Bill.
I can assure you that if some one tired to start dealing here who wasn't a paid sponsor I would be after them hounding them to become a paid sponsor...or to git. 

Yes I believe the person John is referring to is on Gunbroker.  It took me but a query or two to find him as the correct user name is not posted.

John keeping fellows cannoner informed is just fine.  It's part of what we are here for.  We aren't here to smear people so these type posts are heavily monitored and moderated. 

Please keep us advised of the progress all the way to resolution.

Offline dan610324

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Re: Seller "bronzecannon"-check with me before you send them any money
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2008, 02:20:58 PM »
thanks john that you inform us about this man and his business methods .
Dan Pettersson
a swedish cannon maniac
interested in early bronze guns

better safe than sorry

Offline Victor3

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Re: Seller "bronzecannon"-check with me before you send them any money
« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2008, 09:19:24 PM »
 Isn't this the same seller who someone noted a while back was falsely advertizing Nepalese cannons as "Original Bronze Confederate Armstrongs?"

"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly, one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

Sherlock Holmes

Offline KABAR2

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Re: Seller "bronzecannon"-check with me before you send them any money
« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2008, 11:30:14 PM »
Isn't this the same seller who someone noted a while back was falsely advertizing Nepalese cannons as "Original Bronze Confederate Armstrongs?"



Yes, John brought this fellow to our attention some months back, Bronzecannons   he is a broker, a middle man some items are his other items he is

hawking for others. if you check his items, he lists items from International Military Antiques for sale, if you go through his auctions the location may be

Kentucky but many times elsewhere, same on his web site, hence a broker, there is nothing wrong with selling for others for a profit, as long as the deal doesn't go south  the way it did for John,

this is sounding like a bait and switch! If I were John I would be demanding my money back or this guy has a good case of intersate wire fraud or mail fraud pending / Ky Sate Attny General /or Feds etc.

I hope this can be worked out and John get his money back.
Mr president I do not cling to either my gun or my Bible.... my gun is holstered on my side so I may carry my Bible and quote from it!

Sed tamen sal petrae LURO VOPO CAN UTRIET sulphuris; et sic facies tonituum et coruscationem si scias artficium

Offline cannonmn

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Re: Seller "bronzecannon"-check with me before you send them any money
« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2008, 12:30:03 AM »
Thanks K.  Not to confuse things, but I haven't found a solid connection between the "antique cannon superstore" or whatever superstore, and "bronzecannon" I'm dealing with on this issue.

Regarding the  "...superstore" I have had a number of sources give me two different person's names associated with that site, which are different from the person I think I'm dealing with here.  "Superstore" as such as been in operation for a number of years and their are a number of customer stories about them which you can probably find.

Back to "bronzecannon" aka "Tony Wells" yes that entity does seem to be associated with most of the listings on Gunbroker which involve items originally from Nepal, which have been given new identities in the auction listings.  The person in Kentucky is a dealer who has gotten some Nepalese cannons and is using "bronzecannon" to list and sell them, and I believe is giving them the new identities which he passes along to "bronzecannon" who acts like he does not know any better, which may be the case. 

So I was a bit concerned and did some checking by asking "bronzecannon" for references to see if they delivered on their sales.  I got two references from him, one of which was a business in FL, which I called and got an OK report.  I guess it could have been some relative he had me call, but I suspect he did deliver on that one sale.

Offline Double D

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Re: Seller "bronzecannon"-check with me before you send them any money
« Reply #10 on: December 08, 2008, 02:51:22 PM »
John,

Here's you solid connection to Cannon Super store.  On Gun Broker query the sellers other auctions. Open those auctions and compare them with the Cannons for sale on super store.  You will get a 100% match. 

Offline cannonmn

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Re: Seller "bronzecannon"-check with me before you send them any money
« Reply #11 on: December 08, 2008, 03:07:54 PM »
Thanks I can see where the Antique Cannon Superstore (ACSS) has many of the same weapons as Tony aka Bronzecannon.  However, the ACSS lists them at higher prices.  What I think may be going on here is that ACSS finds cannons advertised for sale anywhere and everywhere, and re-advertises them at higher prices.  That way if they get a bite on one they can make the difference by just doing a few emails and handling the money upfront.  You will notice that if you go to the ACSS website, there are cannons that are not on Gunbroker.

To summarize, to me it looks like Tony (bronzecannon) has all the ads on Gunbroker.  ACSS lists those at higher prices plus others they alone have or are brokering.

I don't know anything for sure, but at first glance that's what it looks like.

Offline KABAR2

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Re: Seller "bronzecannon"-check with me before you send them any money
« Reply #12 on: December 08, 2008, 05:18:58 PM »
After conferring with Cannonmn I have removed part of my previous post, until some proof of a relationship is truly established.
Mr president I do not cling to either my gun or my Bible.... my gun is holstered on my side so I may carry my Bible and quote from it!

Sed tamen sal petrae LURO VOPO CAN UTRIET sulphuris; et sic facies tonituum et coruscationem si scias artficium

Offline Double D

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Re: Seller "bronzecannon"-check with me before you send them any money
« Reply #13 on: December 08, 2008, 06:36:40 PM »
Of course cannonstore is higher prices. That's the retail oultlet.  Gunbroker is an auction. Pricing

One or two similar cannons a coincidence.  But twenty plus cannons the same, nope not a coincidence.

Here is the marking photo a on Napolean On ACCSS:



Here is bronzecannon Napolean markings:




Offline cannonmn

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Re: Seller "bronzecannon"-check with me before you send them any money
« Reply #14 on: December 08, 2008, 11:37:35 PM »
Thanks DD, well I was kinda hoping against hope that ACSS wasn't same biz as "bronzecannon" but since you make excellent points that they are probably same, that's not good news for me, other than there are more law-enforcement authorities lookiing for ACSS than "bronzecannon" from what I'm told.

ACSS has always had two names associated with it, Dennis Standifer and Chuck Wright, which may be the same person.

Offline cannonmn

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Re: Seller "bronzecannon"-check with me before you send them any money
« Reply #15 on: December 08, 2008, 11:57:37 PM »
I emailed the person who runs this site to share info with me:

http://web.mac.com/marty888/iWeb/Stolen%20Cannons/Cannons%20Stolen.html

Offline Victor3

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Re: Seller "bronzecannon"-check with me before you send them any money
« Reply #16 on: December 09, 2008, 01:42:08 AM »
I emailed the person who runs this site to share info with me:

http://web.mac.com/marty888/iWeb/Stolen%20Cannons/Cannons%20Stolen.html

 I count 24 cannons the guy says he lost. Wonder why he didn't stop dealing with this outfit after he didn't get paid for the first one or three?
"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly, one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

Sherlock Holmes

Offline thelionspaw

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Re: Seller "bronzecannon"-check with me before you send them any money
« Reply #17 on: December 09, 2008, 02:31:07 AM »
That's alot of cabbage to loose. If you payed with a credit card, you may be in luck.  I've recovered 100% when dealing with another party for a barrel. I registered a complaint with Master Card.  They were easy to deal with. It took a few weeks.
Protect Freedom of Speech; to identify IDIOTS!

Offline cannonmn

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Re: Seller "bronzecannon"-check with me before you send them any money
« Reply #18 on: December 09, 2008, 03:46:24 AM »
I know personally the cannon seller in Lexington KY who owns many of the cannons, especially the Nepalese ones, shown on both "bronzecannon" auctions on Gunbroker, and on the ACSS site.  A friend of mine who is very knowledgeable about British ordnance confronted him at the Mansfield Civil War Show where he had one of the bronze "Armstrong" cannons with signage indicating such.  The Lexington, KY person was told by my friendc that it was not an Armstrong cannon, but ignored him.  Unfortunately the KY person seems to be part of the scam operation.  He is actually in Paris, KY, about 15 min. from Lexington.

Offline cannonmn

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Re: Seller "bronzecannon"-check with me before you send them any money
« Reply #19 on: December 09, 2008, 03:56:53 AM »
Quote
If you payed with a credit card, you may be in luck.

I was actually double-insulated this time, one with a c/c used to provide the money, and another with a separate paying service that actually paid the money to the seller who also has an account with them.  I have filed claims with both entities so hopefully one will come through.

Offline cannonmn

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Re: Seller "bronzecannon"-check with me before you send them any money
« Reply #20 on: December 09, 2008, 04:05:40 AM »
Quote
I count 24 cannons the guy says he lost. Wonder why he didn't stop dealing with this outfit after he didn't get paid for the first one or three?

For all we know the consigner had the entire group of items in one place and let Standifer take them away all at once.  The most successful scammers have the ability to inspire trust in their victims and this may be what happened.

Offline cannonmn

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Re: Seller "bronzecannon"-check with me before you send them any money
« Reply #21 on: December 17, 2008, 03:22:23 AM »
Today I got back about 10% of what I'm owed, from the paying service I used.  They mention that they will retrieve more money as it comes into the seller's account, and they imply they are going to squeeze the seller so it will be hard for him to keep this up, at least if they are involved.  All good news.

So now I'll file my official written claim with the credit card company I used to pay the paying service, for the rest of the money.  I expect to recover 100% within a month or so.  I'm glad I was careful about how I paid for it.  His other option for me was to wire money into his bank account.  If I'd done that I'd be S.O.L. as they say.

Here's the email I got from the paying service today:

Quote
We have concluded our investigation into your case and have decided in your
favor.

We were able to recover $190.15 USD and this amount has been credited to
you.  Please allow five business days for this adjustment to be posted.

If you are due any additional funds, we will make our best effort to
recover the balance from the seller.

If the seller's account has insufficient funds to complete the refund owed
to you, please be assured that we will take appropriate action against the
seller's account, which may include limitation of the seller's account
privileges.



Offline Graybeard

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Re: Seller "bronzecannon"-check with me before you send them any money
« Reply #22 on: December 17, 2008, 11:36:02 AM »
Quote
Today I got back about 10% of what I'm owed, from the paying service I used.  They mention that they will retrieve more money as it comes into the seller's account, and they imply they are going to squeeze the seller so it will be hard for him to keep this up, at least if they are involved.  All good news.

Good news for you certainly but likely bad news for someone else. If he is as bad as has been indicated here it probably means you are just getting the money he has swindled from someone else leaving them up the creek.

With the credit card company refund that's not the case. I sure wish there were better enforcement of the laws already on the book to deal with folks stealing from people via the internet. Back in the old days someone would have found him and hanged him for such offenses. Maybe what we really need is a return to such justice for folks who repeatedly steal from others.


Bill aka the Graybeard
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I am not a lawyer and do not give legal advice.

Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life anyone who believes in Him will have everlasting life!

Offline thelionspaw

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Re: Seller "bronzecannon"-check with me before you send them any money
« Reply #23 on: December 17, 2008, 11:44:22 AM »
Have gun; will travel!

rc
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Offline GGaskill

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Re: Seller "bronzecannon"-check with me before you send them any money
« Reply #24 on: December 17, 2008, 07:39:13 PM »
There are certainly positive things to say about hanging justice.  At the least, it removed the perpetrators from the gene pool.
GG
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Offline Victor3

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Re: Seller "bronzecannon"-check with me before you send them any money
« Reply #25 on: December 18, 2008, 02:17:16 AM »
They mention that they will retrieve more money as it comes into the seller's account, and they imply they are going to squeeze the seller so it will be hard for him to keep this up, at least if they are involved.  All good news.

Here's the email I got from the paying service today:

Quote
We have concluded our investigation into your case and have decided in your
favor.

We were able to recover $190.15 USD and this amount has been credited to
you.  Please allow five business days for this adjustment to be posted.

If you are due any additional funds, we will make our best effort to
recover the balance from the seller.

If the seller's account has insufficient funds to complete the refund owed
to you, please be assured that we will take appropriate action against the
seller's account, which may include limitation of the seller's account
privileges.



 Glad to hear you're getting it straightened out.

 As a side note, the above is why it's not wise (regardless if one happens to be a deadbeat or an honest person) to keep money in an online pay service account, or any bank account attached to it. A decision (right or wrong) can easily go against you, and the service can withdraw your funds under certain circumstances that you agreed to allow when you signed up.

 I use one of these services, and have a dedicated bank account attached to it. After I receive a payment, I transfer it to the attached account. As soon as the transfer is complete, I move funds to a separate account.

 Something important to know about the most popular of these services is that they may take action against your account if they find out that you have used their service to receive payment for even a shooting implement as innocuous as a Daisy BB gun, let alone a cannon designed to fire a projectile...

 
"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly, one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

Sherlock Holmes

Offline KABAR2

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Re: Seller "bronzecannon"-check with me before you send them any money
« Reply #26 on: December 18, 2008, 06:55:17 AM »

 

 Something important to know about the most popular of these services is that they may take action against your account if they find out that you have used their service to receive payment for even a shooting implement as innocuous as a Daisy BB gun, let alone a cannon designed to fire a projectile...

 

Victor,

I stopped using PP for that reason, there is one out there called Gearpay that is pro gun, besides the online services some credit card companies are
looking at what you buy, and what companies sell, A major firearms vendor doing legal business had their account suspended and funds held by the CC company because the CC company could not prove what they were doing was legal! People have had their CC card accounts suspended by the cc companies for buying things they thought hazadous etc. Our world is getting more and more screwed up!

I guess it's going to be FTF when buying the way things keep going.
Mr president I do not cling to either my gun or my Bible.... my gun is holstered on my side so I may carry my Bible and quote from it!

Sed tamen sal petrae LURO VOPO CAN UTRIET sulphuris; et sic facies tonituum et coruscationem si scias artficium

Offline kappullen

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Re: Seller "bronzecannon"-check with me before you send them any money
« Reply #27 on: December 21, 2008, 02:41:28 PM »
I sold my 3# cannon through Bronzecannon.com

How it worked was he took his commission from
the down payment on the sale.

He sent me the rest of the down payment. The customer in
Kentucky paid the rest in cash on delivery.

I can understand how a price hike in the middle of the deal can
cause major problems for everyone concerned.

This situation may be because of the antique dealer, not Tony.

My deal worked out great.

I have no connection with the antique cannon superstore,
or knowledge of this particular deal.

Kap Pullen

Offline cannonmn

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Re: Seller "bronzecannon"-check with me before you send them any money
« Reply #28 on: December 21, 2008, 03:40:03 PM »
Quote
This situation may be because of the antique dealer, not Tony.

As the seller, when Tony could not provide the merchandise he sold me, he needed to return all of my money in timely manner.  I'm still out nearly $2K, and that's Tony's fault, he had no business doing anything with my money if he could not provide what he promised.

I'm glad your deal worked out OK with them, from what I've seen, I think you are very lucky.

Offline cannonmn

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Re: Seller "bronzecannon"-check with me before you send them any money
« Reply #29 on: December 23, 2008, 04:33:41 AM »
Here's some up-to-date information showing how Tony and Antique Cannon Superstore operate.  The cannon shown in the following ad, which I saw online this morning, offers a Spanish cannon made in 1801, for $25K.  The same cannon was offered to me by Tony last summer.  When I asked about it later, he reported that he had sold and shipped it to a party in Florida, and gave me the buyer's info as a reference.  I called the buyer and they verified that they had bought this cannon and received it.

The same exact cannon is still up for sale by Antique Cannon Superstore, aka Bronzecannon, aka Tony Wells, aka Dennis Standifer, aka Chuck Wright, aka............

So I wonder how many people have bought the same cannon?  Notice the name on the cannon is unique.  If anyone has doubts, I still have several photos of it that Tony sent me.  I'm glad I didn't buy that one or I'm sure I'd be out $25K plus shipping cost from the Philippines, which isn't cheap!

http://www.gunsamerica.com/927234636/Non-Guns/Miscellaneous/1801_Spanish_Bronze_Cannon.htm