.22 Magnum, will it become obsolete in 20-30 years?

[JohnClif]

Anyone who thinks that the .17 HMR isn't here to stay doesn't understand why others (like me) are wildly enthusiastic about the cartridge.

While I'd like to see cheaper ammo, if I want to burn up 500 rounds at a time I'll do it thru a regular .22 using the $10 a brick stuff.  I wanted (and bought) a .17 HMR because it WASN'T a .22 WMR.

I like the higher muzzle velocity and flatter trajectory.  I like the fact that the bullet will NOT travel as far as a .22 WMR (or LR).  I like the fact that I am shooting a smaller, lighter bullet.  I like the quieter report over the Hornet.  I like the fact that I CAN'T reload it so I don't worry about losing brass... I can just grab a box of factory ammo and go.

If I want to shoot larger varmints past 100 yards, I'll pull out a .22 Hornet or .223... or .243 or .308.  That's not why I bought a .17.  Nope... I bought it because I wanted something that was ideal for shooting crows, starlings, turtles, and ground squirrels at 200 yards and under.  Trajectory-wise, the .22 Hornet shoots just a bit flatter, but it's louder and the bullet will go a lot further thereby making the .17 a better choice for shooting birds in trees (where my only backstop is open land downrange).

I would never choose the .17 HMR for hunting tree squirrels or rabbit for food... a .22 LR works just fine.  I'd never choose the .17 for coyotes... but I'd bet a coyote hit in the chest cavity within 100 yards isn't going to go very far.  I think it'd be sure death on a fox within 150 yards... although I'd choose a .223 every time.  The .17 is ideal for small varmint critters, and I dream of finding myself armed with one in the boonies near the edge of a treeline loaded with starlings.

BTW, I don't see the attraction for the .22 WMR.  I've had a few friends who owned them and who swore by their performance on larger critters like jacks or prairie dogs within 125 to 150 yards... but I never had a desire to own one since I can't see enough difference between the .22 WMR and the .22 Hornet to want a WMR especially when the Hornet will do everything the WMR will do and if you reload will do it cheaper.  

My prediction: both will stay around, but the .22 WMR will benefit from getting new loads with heavier (45gr) good bullets... making it a Hornet for the masses.  The .17 will become more popular as ammo gets cheaper and I wouldn't be surprised to see a 15gr bullet offering, with higher MV, flatter trajectory out to 200 yds, and even more limited max bullet range.

[bgjohn]

I agree with johnclif. I have both. I like both. I wouldn't be surprised to see Remington re-introduce the 5mm Mag. The ammo price will come down as more mfrs produce it. I suspect most of the price comes from the single supplier of the bullets. Do you know why new calibers keep coming out so frequently? All these short magnums like the 300 WSSM & 300 RUM? It's to SELL more new guns!

JM

[Lawdog]

JohnClif,

BTW, I don't see the attraction for the .22 WMR.

You answered your own statement when you said,

I like the quieter report over the Hornet. I like the fact that I CAN'T reload it so I don't worry about losing brass... I can just grab a box of factory ammo and go.

Basically you can hunt small game like Gray Squirrels and the like without tearing them up like the .17 HMR does.  They may be selling a number of .17 HMR's but I also see way more .17 HMR in the used gun racks than .22 WMR.  The last time I was at our local sporting goods store he had 5 .17 HMR in the rack that had bee there for quite a while.  Number of .22 WMR's in his rack - 0.  I asked him when the last used .22 WMR was in his rack and according to his books well over a year ago.  Like I said before until them bring down the price of the ammo and make a bullet that doesn't destroy a squirrel with a body hit one will not be gracing my safe.  Lawdog
 

[JohnClif]

I can sort of see the attraction of the .22 WMR over the .22 LR, especially before the .17 HMR was released.  I can't see the attraction of the .22 WMR over the .17 HMR now that both are out.

I agree that the .17 HMR will be more destructive for small game hunting than the .22 WMR.  My solution: use a .22 LR.  I've hunted squirrels with .22 rifles since the mid-'70s and with accurate .22 rifles since the early '80s, and have never been in a squirrel hunting situation where an equally accurate .22 WMR would have been preferable to the .22 LR rifle that I possessed.

Flatter trajectory, equivalent killing power out to 150 yards, as accurate if not more accurate (due to better bullets and a better case design)... the only reason some might not prefer the .17 HMR over the .22 WMR is increased ammo cost.  I might give the nod to the WMR for turkey hunting (where legal) but that's it.

For those who want flatter trajectory (and greater range) for tree squirrels but who do not want to tear up their targets, the new .17 HS will in my opinion be the ultimate squirrel hunting cartridge.  It will do everything on squirrels that the .22 WMR will do, and less (it won't tear up the targets or have the downrange problem that is inherent when shooting up at a target).

Cartridge preferences are regional and often reflect the hunting and shooting opportunities.  For instance, in urban and suburban areas handguns outsell long guns by a wide margin while the reverse is true in 'flyover country' where hunting is a lot better.  I'm sure that anyone who bought a .17 HMR thinking it would be a great tree squirrel rifle was sorely disappointed.  If they bought it for shooting crows, starlings, and the like at ranges out to 150 yards they will be enthusiastically happy.

[MSP Ret]

.22 Mag's will be around a lot longer than I will and I think the .17 HMR will also, especially as more people actually get to shoot them. I have them both and each has it's areas where it beats out the other. No one gun or caliber is best for everything. What the heck, the worse scenario is, if you have both you get to shoot more!!....<><....  :grin:

[Keith L]

I don't think it is possible to have to many guns.

[Lawdog]

JohnClif,

I took a .17 HMR out along with my .22 WMR and did a side by side comparison on ground squirrels.  First the .17 HMR bullet performance was close to being explosive.  Really tore up the squirrels ever at ranges out to 130 yards(the farthest I shot one with the little .17).  Didn't leave anything to eat and I do prefer to eat my tree squirrels.  Second the wind affects the .17 HMR much more than the .22 WMR.  We are talking about as much as 1.5 inches more drift than the .22 WMR at 150 yards.  I do use my .22 WMR for tree squirrel hunting because the ranges I sometimes have to shoot(I have taken many a tree squirrel over 100 yards) and that the fact that squirrels are notoriously a hard kill.  For use on larger critters like a coyote the bullet on the .17 HMR opens way to fast to penetrate sufficiently to give a quick, humane kill.  I am not saying the .17 HMR does not have it's place but the .17 HMR will NEVER replace the .22 WMR.  To make the .17 HMR a better all around cartridge they are going to have to come out with a bullet that does not open so fast and penetrates better.  And the price of the ammo is going to have to come down to the level of .22 WMR to compete.  Whether or not the .17 HMR will be around twenty years from now only time will tell.  Lawdog
 

[JohnClif]

Lawdog,

I won't argue that the .22 WMR has appeal for many people.  When it was the only game in town, rimfire-wise, it fulfilled a wide niche.

The introduction of the .17 HMR changed that, and the new .17 HS/Mach II/whatever will change it even more.  I think the .17s are a good example of how some in the industry are actually thinking beyond what will sell, and trying to come up with something that we can really use.

From an INDUSTRY point of view, the number of consumers who buy a .22 WMR for tree squirrel hunting is very small.  I'm sure the vast majority (90%+) of WMR owners bought them for varmint shooting.  New WMR loads are tailored towards varmint hunters and silhouette shooters... not small game hunters who want less meat damage.  The WMR was introduced to fill the void between the .22 LR and the .22 centerfires, but until recently (with the availability of better ammo and better barrels/guns) it hasn't -- the rep has been 'too powerful for small game hunting under 50 yards, not accurate enough for varmint shooting past 100 yards.'  Also, past 125 yards holdover has been a problem on small varmints (the intended quarry for the cartridge) making hits problematic.    Most people who miss blame the gun... and the industry wanted to create a rimfire cartridge with characteristics that minimize shooter error.  Ergo, the .17 HMR.

I believe that the view inside the industry was pondering the rabid acceptance of the various .22 Hornet offerings (rifles and ammo) lately... the Hornet was not selling very well for decades up until the mid '90s.  They think that the reason the Hornet became so popular was because of a pent-up demand for a cartridge that bridged the gap between the .22 LR and the .223 and was accurate.  So... "if we can give the consumer a rimfire cartridge with the same trajectory and varmint-killing characteristics of the Hornet, we should sell lots of 'em."
 
I also believe that you, and I, and many on this BBS do not reflect the average consumer in that we are decent shots, understand ballistics enough to be able to estimate windage and bullet drop, etc.  The .22 WMR works for you because you are willing to take the time to understand it... and you have to admit that most squirrel hunters can't hit their target past 50 yards and thus the extra power of a WMR is wasted.

Sure, the WMR is more powerful than the HMR, and more versatile in that for a good shooter who learns its characteristics, the range of game that can be taken is wider with the WMR than the HMR.  But demographic trends show that shooters WANT to buy more guns... not do more with less... and that is a trend that the industry understandably wants to encourage.  Thus the HMR (for small targets out to 200 yards) and the HS (for small game hunting out to 100 yards without holdover).  The industry will be jumping all over itself adapting existing rifles to these calibers.

I would not be surprised to see someone offer a light-bullet WMR in an attempt to equal the trajectory of the HMR out to 200 yards, but I think the major push will be towards quality 45gr boattail bullets like the V-Max and BT in the WMR in an attempt to make it into a true 200 yard cartridge that will dispatch foxes and under readily.

So... as you can see we really aren't far apart on this.  I also think you are right in that the industry will offer less-destructive loadings for those who want to hunt small game with the HMR.

It's a great time to be a shooter.

[jh45gun]

Every one knows here I am a 22 mag fan and I have to agree with you John that the 17 hmr will prompt better ammo for the 22 mag making it a better long range gun. Jim

[Redhawk1]

[Redhawk1]

I had several 22MAG's. I just could not get good consistent accuracy from them. I pick up a Savage in 17HRM and it shot extremely accurate. I no longer own a 22MAG rifle and I do not think I will ever go back to one. I will use my Ruger 10/22 if I decide I want to have anything left to eat. I just enjoy the destructive power of the 17HRM. I think the 22MAG will be here to stay as well as the 17HRM. They both have there own following. But I do still have a 22MAG pistol and will keep it. It is my back up to my main carry gun.  

[Fla Brian]

Anyone who thinks the .22 magnum is on the way out because something "better" has come along, the .17HMR, has not looked at all carefully at shooting trends over the years. Way back in this thread, vmaxx made the excellent point that, despite the fact that many ballistically superior cartridges have come out, the old .30-30 is still going strong. I would add that many of these "superior" cartridges have faded away while the .30-30 is still one of the top sellers. New cartridges come and go, but the tried and true, old reliables keep on going year after year.

The jury is still out on the .17HMR, but I think that, unlike the old 5mm Remington, it will survive. But, I hardly think it will ever supplant the .22 magnum. The .22 magnum neatly fills a niche between the lr and the small centerfire .22s for those that don't want to bother to reload and who don't want to pay the prices required for the centerfires.

Yes, I have a Hornet, and a .222 and .223, and I love 'em, but I wouldn't be without my .22 maggie. It's right handy when I want more oomph out of my Single-Six and will carry over longer ranges than the lr in my rifle. The heavier bullets won't blow around in the wind as much as the little .17 HMR pill. The benefit of less vertical displacement is offset, I believe by the greater horizontal wind drift. It doesn't matter why I miss, low or sideways, if the bullet doesn't hit the mark. In my opinion, bullet drop is easier to correct for than wind drift. That's something I learned from silhouette shooting in the wind.

Will I ever buy a .17? Probably. Do I need one? Not really, but there's room in my battery for all sorts of different chamberings. However, if I were limited to one rimfire for hunting, it wouldn't be the new .17.

Just my  :money:  for what it's worth.

[vhunter]

I have a Marlin 22 mag ssv that shoots 1" or better at 100yds. I bought mine when the 17 started comming out and read everything I could get my hands on before I  made my purchase. I believe the 17 is more consistanly accurate than the 22 mag, but I like the down range punch of the 22 mag. I wouldn't trade my 22 mag for a 17 but I believe both are here to stay! Ammo prices are dropping and more companys are making 17 hmr ammo which is good! I would like to see a smaller spitzer bullet for the 22 mag in the 20 or 25gr range as well as a 50gr tnt hollow point.
I really like my 22 mag and it is my favorite rifle!! You can have 30Gr up to 50gr bullets and that was why I chose the 22mag!  Will they both pass?
I don't believe so, I think they both will stay!!  

[Stock02]

Just an opinion but rest easy that you'll be able to pass down your 22mags to sons and grandsons and they'll have no problem whatsoever finding ammo to shoot through em.  Right now manufacturers are searching for niche markets. The tried and true will always be here.

[FallingCrows]

My next rifle is going to be a Savage .22 Mag, so I hope not.

[Andy2590]

I don't think either will go in any of our lifetimes.  I currently own a Marlin 917VS 17hmr and it shoots great.  I don't own a 22mag but have shot one many times and also like it.  They are both great cartridges, but in my opinion the 17hmr is better (thats why I bought it).  Its flatter trajectory and higher speeds help, but the main reason I like it better is the accuracy.  I've never been able to get 5 shot groups in a dime with a 22mag, but I can with the 17hmr.  If I had to pick one to last longer though, it would have to be the 22mag.  I like the 17 better but there are too many people out there who won't give it a try.  I think thats why the 5mm rimfire went.  I own one of those also and I love it.  The only problem is I can't get ammo for it.  Just my 2 cents.

[jh45gun]

I don't think either will go in any of our lifetimes.  I currently own a Marlin 917VS 17hmr and it shoots great.  I don't own a 22mag but have shot one many times and also like it.  They are both great cartridges, but in my opinion the 17hmr is better (thats why I bought it).  Its flatter trajectory and higher speeds help, but the main reason I like it better is the accuracy.  I've never been able to get 5 shot groups in a dime with a 22mag, but I can with the 17hmr.  If I had to pick one to last longer though, it would have to be the 22mag.  I like the 17 better but there are too many people out there who won't give it a try.  I think thats why the 5mm rimfire went.  I own one of those also and I love it.  The only problem is I can't get ammo for it.  Just my 2 cents.

Better for what I have to ask. Yea for paper punching and critters prairrie dog size and smaller it works fine from all I have read. Chucks and up you need a 22 mag. Plus as stated before 2 explosive for edible game. Glad you like yours but I feel they are limited compared to the 22 mag and that is why I bought mine.  :grin:

[Lawdog]

The best thing the .17 HMR did was make the ammo manufactures aware that the hunting/shooting public wanted better more accurate bullets in their ammo.  I tried the some of the new .22 WMR ammo that is coming out and they are even more accurate, faster and have better bullets in them.  Try the new .22 WMR custom ammo from Outland Sales, http://www.outlandsales.com/vmax.html,  for a new bang in your rifle.  Loaded with 35 gr. Hornady V-Max bullets to 2,020fps. with the plain jacket and 2,045 with the moly coating(2,036  and 2,057 respectively over my chronograph using my Ruger 77/22 with it's 22 inch barrel).  Yes they cost a bit more but they are worth it as are the new Remington Premier .22 WMR loaded with 33 gr. V-Max bullets.  These are excellent too.  These are just two of the new offerings for the .22 WMR and if sales are an indication they are not going to be the last new loading’s for the .22 WMR or the old stand-by .22 long rifle either.  Lawdog
 

[Patriot_1776]

To me, it is almost a win-win situation.  If I could, I would have both, the .22 mag, along with my 17 HMR.  But if there is one improvment that could be made to both, is if Barnes made a little solid copper X bullet for both cartridges.  I bet their profits would skyrocket.  I believe with a bullet like that, they would both be excellent with coyotes and the such.  Heck, w/ a Barnes X bullet in a 223, or a 22-250, you can easily take deer.  Just my  :money:  Patriot

[quickdtoo]

To me, it is almost a win-win situation.  If I could, I would have both, the .22 mag, along with my 17 HMR.  But if there is one improvment that could be made to both, is if Barnes made a little solid copper X bullet for both cartridges.  I bet their profits would skyrocket.  I believe with a bullet like that, they would both be excellent with coyotes and the such.  Heck, w/ a Barnes X bullet in a 223, or a 22-250, you can easily take deer.  Just my  :money:  Patriot

That's why the 20gr Hornady XTP and 20gr CCI GamePoint are available.

[unspellable]

I think they will both be around for a long time.

The 17 HMR costs more than the 22 WMR because it has a fancier bullet.  Over time cost will come down a bit.

I have 22 LR, 22 WMR, & 17 HMR in revolvers.  My only long rimfire is a 22 LR.  I plan to get a 17 HMR.

I am waiting to see what the 22 LR necked down to 17 will do.  I'm hoping for a self loading pistol for this one.  It is sueful to flatten the trajectory out to 100 yards.

[TheGunDealer]

personally, i think there both here to stay. the only real problem i see at this time is most companies think that they need to charge an arm and a leg for the little .17, both in the guns and ammo. now,realistically, MOST people will never get a chance to shoot a 100 yard shot with EITHER gun at small game (alot of that depending on geographic location).

what i would really like to see is a company build a bolt action rifle with INTERCHANGABLE BARRELS , and include the .22 mag AND the .17 HMR ( which would be extremely easy to do). both being about the same size.


as a firearms dealer, ive had the oprotunity to own/shoot both calibers for quite some time, and have to say,while the .17HMR is an extremely accurate round, i also prefer the downrange punch of the .22 magnum. the .22 mag also comes in a super wide range of loadings/bullets to fill just about every need.

something else you need to look at, sort of a "what if" story.

how many of you have went on a hunting trip and found once you got there, in all of the exitement to get out the door, you've forgotten ammo?  personally, i never have, but know a couple of guys who have. most places you go, at the very least, there will be a mom and pop type store that will have alot of different types of amunition just in case you find yourself in this sort of situatuion,, but how many do you think will actually carry the 17HMR? notmany as most mom and pop type store only carry the most popular calibers of ammo, and dont really care to carry stuff that will not sell very fast. also, even at wholesale prices, most mom and pop stores operate on a strict budget and cant afford the higher price of the 17HMR, just to have it sit there at 10.00+ a box and gather dust.

both calibers are great, but i think in MOST cases, the .22 magnum will trump the .17HMR in every way

[hankbrass]

I am not concerned with telling the future of this fine little cartridge. But am content to enjoy it for the time being. It saw action tonight in the form of a pair of yotes trying to steal off some 7 week old beagle pups. Shot was @ approx. 125 yards. Slipped the 17 grain pill in just behind the front shoulder, center of the body .Yote was alive when I got out in the field 10 mnutes later  but unable to move from location where it was shot. Finished it with a Remington high brass load of #6's in the head at 6ft. from my 12 gauge high-standard riot gun.
Now I would have prefered the 22-250 for the job but it was in the safe and the .17 was handy so that is what I grabbed.
My conclusion echoes previous sentiments that it is not a yote gun. That shot was placed in the vitals but did not kill effectlively in my opinion due to the time it stayed breathing after being shot. Though the pups are safe again I would recomend more bullet weight than the .17 carries for anything bigger than groundhawg! :shock:

[jh45gun]

I am not concerned with telling the future of this fine little cartridge. But am content to enjoy it for the time being. It saw action tonight in the form of a pair of yotes trying to steal off some 7 week old beagle pups. Shot was @ approx. 125 yards. Slipped the 17 grain pill in just behind the front shoulder, center of the body .Yote was alive when I got out in the field 10 mnutes later  but unable to move from location where it was shot. Finished it with a Remington high brass load of #6's in the head at 6ft. from my 12 gauge high-standard riot gun.
Now I would have prefered the 22-250 for the job but it was in the safe and the .17 was handy so that is what I grabbed.
My conclusion echoes previous sentiments that it is not a yote gun. That shot was placed in the vitals but did not kill effectlively in my opinion due to the time it stayed breathing after being shot. Though the pups are safe again I would recomend more bullet weight than the .17 carries for anything bigger than groundhawg! :shock:

Agreed though  I have never shot one! I have a 22 mag and while I would not hesitate shooting a coyote with one some even think that is way too small. I have seen what the 22 mag will do on critters larger than a coyote and it is more potent than most would think. Still a centerfire or a scatter gun is probably a better choice. Still I would try my 22 mag if that was all I had available. Jim

[armory414]

The 17 HMR has it's place for shooting and hunting.  The only thing that will keep it alive is the fact that there are so many guns out there currently.  But then again, how many boxes of .25-20 ammo do you see sitting on store shelves any more?  The 17 Mach II will have a short life.  I see a lot of used 17 HMR guns in gunshops, so people are trying them out and finding they don't like them.  It may be the cost of the ammo, or it may be that the round is just not practical in anything stronger than a slight breeze when shooting beyond 50 yds. (I hear this complaint a good bit).

There ARE bolt guns available with interchangeable barrels--Ruger's 77/22 mag.

[Keith L]

My guess is that this argument will still be going on in 20 years.

"the round is just not practical in anything stronger than a slight breeze when shooting beyond 50 yds. (I hear this complaint a good bit)"

I hear it also, but not from anyone who actually shoots 17 HMR.  It is one of those urban legends that find legs on the internet.  

And I wish there were lots of 17 HMRs on the used racks around here.  My work has me over most of Wisconsin.  I tend to visit gun shops wherever I go, and there are damned few 17 rimfires available new or used.  My son likes mine so much I have been looking for one to get him.  So far no luck.  And for what its worth I spent last week in the Cincinnati area and didn't see any used ones there either.

[armory414]

Local gunshop here has 3 rifles and one revolver.  And they've had them for a while.  The guys I hear complaining about the 17 HMR in wind are shooters, not plinkers.

[Keith L]

Local gunshop here has 3 rifles and one revolver.  And they've had them for a while.  The guys I hear complaining about the 17 HMR in wind are shooters, not plinkers.

Most likely shooters of .22 mags.  Those of us who shoot seriously the .17 HMR know the drift is highly overstated.

What rifles are for sale used?  May be worth the drive to get one.

[armory414]

New and used guns in 17 HMR at Jaqua's in Findlay, OH


95361 RUGER  SINGLE SIX 17 HMR  6.5" BLUE $325.00
   
 
  96650 RUGER  SINGLE SIX 17 HMR  6 1/2" BLUED $275.00


 
RIFLES  
  93428 COOPER ARMS  MODEL 57M 17 HMR  24" HEAVY BARREL $1,250.00
 

 
  98637 MARLIN  MODEL 17V 17 HMR  22" SCOPED $200.00
        Accessory   Used  

 
  92397 REMINGTON  MODEL 597 17 HMR  20" LAMINATED $325.00

96638 REMINGTON  MODEL 597 17 HMR  20" LAMINATE $325.00
 
 
  95385 RUGER  MODEL 77/17 17 HMR  22" BLUED/SYN $395.00
 

 
92137 TAURUS  MODEL 172 17 HMR  16.5" OPEN SIGHT $260.00

 
92064 WINCHESTER  MODEL 9417 17 HMR  20 1/2" TRADITIONAL $469.00

 
96213 WINCHESTER  MODEL 9417 17 HMR  20" TRADITIONAL $465.00

 
  96220 WINCHESTER  MODEL 9417 17 HMR  20" LTD EDITION $459.00


 
  97797 WINCHESTER  MODEL 9417 17 HMR  20" TRADITIONAL $395.00

[Lawdog]

Keith L,

Most likely shooters of .22 mags. Those of us who shoot seriously the .17 HMR know the drift is highly overstated.

Actually comparisons(side by side comparison using rifles of same make, model down to even the same barrel length(which in most instances the barrels on .17 HMR are longer)) were done by hunter/shooters what were looking to see if the new .17 HMR was a better option than the .22 WMR.  It wasn't.  Small groups and tight lines to you.  Lawdog