Author Topic: Accuracy issues (Read 2000 times)

NM Shooter · « **on:** December 06, 2008, 01:31:29 PM »

I was at the range today trying out my new green laminate thumbhole stock. I was shooting at 100 yards. and was not able to keep three bullets inside of a 2 to 3 inch group. The gun is a .308 Survivor with a bull barrel. Here's a breakdown of what I have done so far.
1) Trigger job by a gunsmith. It breaks clean at 2.5 pounds with no creep.
2) Changed the original Survivor stock to a thumbhole laminate.
3) Original forearm in place, but I was shooting it with it removed. Put it back on, and saw no difference.
4) Made sure that the barrel latch was dry, and that I closed the barrel firmly.
5) Front sandbag was placed at the hinge-point of the barrel and receiver.
6) 3x9 Nikon scope is mounted tight, as is the scope mount to the barrel.
7) I use once-fired Federal premium brass (a friend is a sniper on the local PD SWAT team and gives me all that I want). Each casing is full-length resized, trimmed to proper length, and each powder charged is weighed on my digital scale.

I'm using Varget, 4895, and Accurate 2520 for powder, and Hornady and Remington bullets of 150 and 165 grains. No matter the combination of powder and bullets, groups still avarage around 2-3 inches at 100yds.
9) Total rounds out of this gun is about 100 to 150.

Am I asking too much of this gun to shoot smaller groups? Can anyone give me some more tips?

Slufoot · « **Reply #1 on:** December 06, 2008, 01:40:14 PM »

Have you given your barrel a really good cleaning to remove all traces of copper?

After a total cleaning it may take a few shots for the barrel to start shooting good.

Just a thought!

Slufoot

quickdtoo · « **Reply #2 on:** December 06, 2008, 01:40:54 PM »

What charge weights of powder? I'd try some 180gr too. My bull barrel 308 Win shoots nice groups with Varget and the 168gr TSX Match bullet, FWIW.

Tim

safetysheriff · « **Reply #3 on:** December 06, 2008, 01:52:02 PM »

hello,

#5 is a problem, i'd guess. the bag should be on the very back of the forearm, but not behind it at all. if the bag is behind the forearm then recoil causes the back edge of the forearm to hit the bag and throw the rifle upwards. off a bench i shoot with the bag, on a Hoppe's orange-painted metal rest, under the Rear of the forearm; but in the field i shoot the rifle holding the barrel far ahead of the forearm while holding onto a stick/sticks taped together. by shooting that way in the field i minimize the effect of the pivoting of the buttstock with my breathing, etc......because the pivot point is so far in front of my shoulder. think of the rifle's point of resting on the bag or in your hand as a pivot point with your shoulder at one end and the muzzle at the other. by moving the pivot foreward we can minimize the effect of the movement at the rifle/shoulder juncture.

one of my longest shots, sitting on a plastic lawn chair, with a set of sticks taped together into one unit, was made holding the rifle close to the muzzle, taking a ground hog at 185 yards right near point-of-aim. it's not as easy as shooting off a set of sticks that criss-cross, but it has worked for me.

good shooting to you,

ss'

zoner · « **Reply #4 on:** December 06, 2008, 01:57:20 PM »

did your gun shoot differently or better before you put on the thumbhole stock?

sooter · « **Reply #5 on:** December 06, 2008, 02:26:08 PM »

Are you shooting flat base or boat tail bullets? Some guns do specifically prefer one over the other. Also, you might want to try a spire point bullet - like hornady as it may shoot better than a typical spitzer type bullet.

Fred M · « **Reply #6 on:** December 06, 2008, 03:23:41 PM »

You may have a dimensional crappy bore. Slug the bore and get
groove sizes on both ends. If oversize send the gun back for a new barrel.

Jimbo47 · « **Reply #7 on:** December 06, 2008, 04:06:41 PM »

Could be a heat issue...I know it's a bull barrel, but these Handi's are notorious for this!

quickdtoo · « **Reply #8 on:** December 06, 2008, 05:20:57 PM »

Check the crown too, there's a neat crown touch up method in the FAQs.

Tim

trotterlg · « **Reply #9 on:** December 06, 2008, 06:00:27 PM »

Use the barrel for a grape stake and move on. Seriously however, if you can't find a bullet you want to use that shoots in the barrel just throw in the towl early and save your self all the pain suffering. You can easily burn through more money in ammo than a new rifle costs. Larry

NM Shooter · « **Reply #10 on:** December 06, 2008, 08:01:12 PM »

I've tried both boat-tail and flat base bullets, no difference. All loads are about 2-3 grains below max for the bullet. I have not tied 180 grain bullets yet. The crown looks good to me. It shoots about the same with the new stock as it did with the old. The barrel was not overheated, it shot bad from the first group that I shot. I've not slugged the barrel, so I don't know if that's an issue or not. I gave the gun a good cleaning at about 50 rounds, and I ran a dry brush through it this morning prior to taking it to the range. Using the barrel as a fence post would make more sense than a grape stake out here in New Mexico

. The frustrating part about this is that I think that I'm following all of the accuracy tips that I'm finding on the forum, but it still is not shooting very well. I really like how this gun looks and feels. However, if I can't find out how to make it shoot better, then it will find its way to the back of the gunsafe and not be fired again. A rifle that can't shoot a one inch or less group at 100 yds is not fun for me to shoot.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #11 on:** December 06, 2008, 08:24:33 PM »

Are your loads just random loads you've selected or have you work them up from start data? I work my loads up in ½gr increments of 3 shots each, 90% of the time a ½gr difference makes all the difference in the world from a sub moa group to 2" or 3" group, so just picking an arbitrary loads that's mid level ain't gonna cut it unless you're real lucky.

As a last resort, H&R's standard of accuracy is 2" or less at 100yds with factory ammo which is fine for any big game cartridge, not what we'd like for sure, but good enough, if it won't do that, it needs to go back for repair, it's likely got a problem that you're not likely to cure with normal "tinkering".

Tim

trotterlg · « **Reply #12 on:** December 06, 2008, 08:27:28 PM »

Life is short, and to me, not worth trying to make something work that probably never will. If you are young and have the time then play with it, for me, I just would not consider dealing with it at all, I would just sell it off and move on. Larry

OBXPilgrim · « **Reply #13 on:** December 07, 2008, 02:38:09 AM »

Well, I might as well throw my .02 in.

How does the latch lock up? Is it locked all the way across the latch or just on one side?

My 22 hornet would not shoot worth a crap (6"-10" groups), until I noticed the lockup was just to one side & fixed it. Take a black magic marker and blacken the whole latch area (take the barrel off to get to it better). Put the rifle back together and open & close it several times - good stout snaps to close it. Take the barrel back off & look at the lockup engagement. If it's just to one side, I bet that's the biggest problem.

If it is just to one side, sometimes you can fix it yourself. If the release lever is not poped up very high when the gun is closed (with that barrel), and/or if the firing pin impacts the primers above the center of the primer, there might be a few things that can be done.

Also, when you reloaded for this rifle, did you try to seat near the rifle "leade"/throat? Since we don't have to deal with a magazine, I generally seat to touch the start of the rifling then back off .010-.030". The Handi 45-70, 444 seem to have a notoriously short throat, some of the others (357 Mag especially) are cut way too long.

Hope that helps

NM Shooter · « **Reply #14 on:** December 07, 2008, 05:43:56 AM »

Here's my plan:

1) Check the lock-up as suggested to make sure that it's good.
2) Play with the powder charges to see if that makes a difference.
3) I wouldn't consider myself young or old...I'm 47. After all, age is a relative number. However, I will set a limit on the amount of time that I tinker with this rifle.

I recently turned down a deal on an unfired Ruger #1 in 30.06 for $600. I'm re-thinking that decision!

Thanks for the help!

gendoc · « **Reply #15 on:** December 07, 2008, 08:31:52 AM »

hi' i did the exact thing to my new .308 survivor. removed the plastics and installed the lam-camo
stock and checkerd forend.

both ways it shoots .5-.75"@100yrds
front rest is at the trigger guard, and i'm using nosler ballistic tip 165g with 39g imr-4895
col is spec. if you plan on only shooting your rounds thru your gun, no need to crimp.
you might want to try some new brass.
and some factory loads of winny 150gr cxp2. thats what mine likes to shoot if not using handloads.
i have proofed this accuracy over 70 shots.
a total of 20 in a row, one after another trying to distort barrel with heat, nada!!!!!!!!
and i was shooting at temps of 78 degree ambient
this handy out performs many other high$ shooters i have.
its nice to have a gun that does not have poi walk-arounds from barrel heat!!!!!!
it appears you must have a faulty barrel or lock-up.
don't give up.... its probably a simple but timely fix, if it goes back to the factory.

BTW-------i followed {my} new barrel break in procedures.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #16 on:** December 07, 2008, 08:48:38 AM »

I bought a used survivor 308 barrel and did the same with camo lams, first range trip with no work on the forend shooting the Varget/168gr TSX got me excellect results. The target is of two 3-shot groups shot back to back within ~3 minutes, the lower 3 is one group, the other was ½gr more, data is Barnes'.

Tim

http://www.barnesbullets.com/images/308WinWeb.pdf

FW Conch · « **Reply #17 on:** December 07, 2008, 10:44:39 AM »

I have not been able to get Rem. or Hdy. 308 bullets to shoot well.

165 gr 308 Nosler Ballistic Tips, Accubonds & Hdy. SSTs "DO" shoot well in my barrel & hit on the same POI.

Varget is known to be a very good powder for the 308 but a "near max" load works best for me.

Some 308 Survivors shoot well out of the box & I am sure you can improve your groups with enough effort,
but I, JMHO, don't believe we can demand MOA out of any particular Handi. Good Luck ! Jim

NM Shooter · « **Reply #18 on:** December 07, 2008, 11:51:30 AM »

I appreciate all of the good advice. I will keep tinkering with this until I get tired of it. If I could get it to shoot 1 MOA I would be very pleased.

mrbgt · « **Reply #19 on:** December 07, 2008, 05:54:36 PM »

I had to shim my barrel with .001 shim ,bed the scope rail , and add the o ring between the handgaurd and barrel . Try 45.7 varget useing seirra 168 match bullets and load them as long as possible I am around 2.975 OAL

the_spotdoctor · « **Reply #20 on:** December 08, 2008, 08:39:15 AM »

Been there done that. It is ridiculous to have to go through all the crap you have to try to get a gun to shoot a 2 inch group. I agree with the guy above about the tent stake, save yourself the heartache and trouble and buy yourself a savage or one of the new marlins for around $300 and shoot an inch group out of the box. I had four handi's, I guess it was the challenge of trying to make them improve, I had one that became a 1 inch shooter but it took a lot of work. The workmanship and accuracy of these rifles is poor at best. This is just my opinion, I am sure I will get some replies. It goes back to the old saying, you can't make a silk purse out of a hog's ear.

R.W.Dale · « **Reply #21 on:** December 08, 2008, 08:45:40 AM »

I think vurtiually ALL the accuracy issues inherent to the break action rifle (encore included) stems from the use of rimless or non belted rounds. I wonder if a quick reaming with a 307 reamer and using that brass would cure up this barrels accuracy issues.

this article goes in depth to outline the reasons why. Even though he's trying to sell you a gauge you can get by with only a set of calipers, but this doesn't make what's being said untrue

http://www.(censored word).com/store/index.php?cid=172

b,e,l,l,m, t, c, s replaces "(censored word)"

more here

http://www.lasc.us/bellmHeadspace.htm

FW Conch · « **Reply #22 on:** December 08, 2008, 11:17:14 AM »

I once kicked the question around this site & others, "does a rimmed cartridge headspace off the rim or off the shoulder" ? I'm still not completely clear as to the correct answer, if one exists. I have stated before that I can see the advantages of a rimmed cartridge used in a break action rifle. One thing I have decided I do know for sure is "a straight wall rimmed cartridge does not headspace off the shoulder because there is no shoulder" ! Straight wall rimmed cases headspace off the rim ! I have been told that this is where the "belts" came from on the big old African double rifles & they headspace off the belt. These were later necked down into bottlenecks which became the belted magnums we now have & we can ask "do they headspace off the shoulder or off the belt" ?

Realoaders know that accuracy can be improved by "fire forming" their cases to their chambers. This reduces "chamber slopp" & ,IMHO, minimizes excess headspace. I have been advised that eventually necksized cases have to be full length sized to fit into the chamber, however this has not happened to me, probably because I don't have any tight chambers. Well, not rifle chambers anyway ! AtLaw?

. I may have gotten some more answers from that "gauge" site but I lost intrest before I finished reading it.
Appling all this to Handi accuracy, If I spend $400 on a Handi rifle with a laminated, thumbhole stock, bull barrel, etc., can I expect that more of this measuring has been done than on a "tupperware" handi, or is it like a "chevy" truck with a "Cadillac" emblem on it. I believe that a Handi owner is one who calls customer service & says "my Handi is grouping 2", & the nice lady says, congratulations, what can I do for you today, anything more that I expect is up to me, & that's where the "cult following" begins !
JMHO GOOD LUCK & GOOD SHOOTING ! Jim

NAM70 · « **Reply #23 on:** December 08, 2008, 01:52:10 PM »

NM Shooter. PM sent

gendoc · « **Reply #24 on:** December 08, 2008, 02:19:31 PM »

well i guess that i must have two of a few very accurate, out of the box handi's
only thing i've did to them is handloads.
my survivor .308 will out shoot my kimber 8400 montana 270wsm, rem 700 270wsm and browning bar .308
and the handi's have bushnell glass!!!! vs leupold vxIII.
cool thing is you only got one shot, and thats all you need. cause with the others #2 and#3 poi is
somewhere other that were you wanted it to be!!!!
its all good, you shoot what you want, and i'll do the same.......
as for my hornet, we don't even need to go there, cause its well and its hell!!!

coop2564 · « **Reply #25 on:** December 09, 2008, 04:40:12 AM »

Welcome to my world, I spent a fortune trying to make mine shoot and every time I thought I had it next time at range it would change point of impact or just go wacky again. So one of my recievers wears a ML barrel which is consistant and the other a shotgun and I dont even try the rifle barrels anymore. Good luck!

Dan308 · « **Reply #26 on:** December 09, 2008, 05:49:29 AM »

NM Shooter, I'm also from NM and have a handi in .308 and it shoots really well with 43.0 gr of Varget with 168 BTHP Molly. Groups are around .75 I have a 3x12 30mm Euroscope on it. Get some JB Bore Paste and lap the barrel 400 strokes then clean.

gendoc · « **Reply #27 on:** December 09, 2008, 01:13:33 PM »

i second the bore paste..........

quickdtoo · « **Reply #28 on:** December 09, 2008, 01:17:01 PM »

There are a bunch of products you can use to polish the bore, most are listed in the FAQs, some you may already have like metal polish of some sort, they all work, they just require some time and elbow grease!!

Tim

kgarner · « **Reply #29 on:** December 09, 2008, 05:34:19 PM »

Check the firing pin if it is off center very much it will cause erratic groups.Please let us know if it is off center.