Turkish Military Museums

[cannonmn]

Link goes to site for the Turkish military museums.  There are some elaborate bronze cannons Dan will like.  Toward the bottom there are some interesting arms including what must be some kind of model of a diesel-powered weapon.  The words "oil powered" and "magnetic" are there so it is hard to tell, and looking at it doesn't help much.  Fascinating thing though, if anyone knows how it works please advise.

http://www.pbase.com/dosseman/miltary_maritime_museum&page=all

The pic on lower right on this page shows a long lineup of cannons outside a museum building.

http://www.warmuseums.nl/gal/123gal.htm

On 3rd page of this site, there are a couple more cannon pix.  The Islamic armor, especially the helmets on that site are pretty remarkable too, but of course we're focusing on the artillery!

http://wowturkey.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9555&start=0


Credit goes to Steven H. Smith for finding these sites.

[cannonmn]

Steven also found this neat old German howitzer drawing

http://www.digam.net/?str=177

[dan610324]

wow

this is not fair , they have so many that they need to stack them outdoors 
I can help them store a few inside at no cost at all   

[cannonmn]

Another reason for not having cannons outside:  You see those cannons are right next to a road.  I think it was sometime in the 1990's that a heavy truck lost its brakes and ploughed down a row of very early bronze cannons at that museum.  I don't know if the pix are before that happened or after the mess was cleaned up and the grass re-grown, and broken cannons replaced.  Does anyone have details?

[Bob Smith]

Cannonmn

Those cannons are not actually on a road, they are in a courtyard inside at the back of the museum. There is another bunch of cannon outside, - I tried twice to look at them and both occasions the Turkish army started waving guns and whistling at me. Both had a number of early cannons in their lines, and I was only there in 2006. I have some pictures of dating from before, so I would be interested to hear if there was any accidents to them in between

Bob Smith

[cannonmn]

Thanks Bob.  The truck hitting the cannons happened in Istanbul somewhere in 1990's or before, that's all I know about it.

[Bob Smith]

This site has a number of detailed shots of many of the cannons in the Army Museum in Istanbul; you probably need to check out the naval site, too.

http://rubens.anu.edu.au/raid4/turkey/istanbul/museums/military/

Bob Smith

[Cannoneer]

Bob,

 Some interesting pictures of ordnance; I've seen the European partridge mortar before, (large caliber center bore with auxiliary smaller caliber bores surrounding it) but not the same bore configuration in a cannon.
Do you have any ideas on how the 1689 Italian six barreled mortar was mounted? I guess the two long projections on each side would be called trunnions with rimbases; I wonder why they are tapered toward the ends?

[Terry C.]

It's possible that there was no 'bed' per se.

The tapered trunnions may not be trunnions at all, but instead spindles for wheel hubs. The entire assembly may be one big axle.

[Cannoneer]

Terry,

 Because of the taper, I had the same exact thought, but I can't see any holes for the lynchpins; and why would the "axle spindles" be so long?

[dan610324]

Ive seen some old print of an mortar with an similar setup as the 11 barreled cannon , but I was so stupid that I didnt save it .
can anyone of you guys remember if it have been posted here at this site ??

Ive been looking a bit more at this 6 barreled "mortar"

I say that it aint an mortar , its an 6 barreled howitzer .
if you look in the back of the gun there is an very shallow groove connecting all 6 barrels to one point of ignition .
if you put that piece to an 45 degree angle it wouldnt be any chance for the powder to stay in that groove .

anyone agree or disagree ??

[Artilleryman]

According to the sign for the mortar bank, it would appear that the bores for the mortars are 59 mm.  If that is correct, that makes this artillery piece more of a grenade launcher.

[dan610324]

but would it be possible to use it in an elevation of 45 degrees or more ??
I dont think so

[Terry C.]

If you look again at the view in the first post, you will see that the surface with the groove is not level but set at an angle.

Applying your own logic to this arrangement, the bores would have to be inclined for the powder to stay in the groove.

[dan610324]

yes , but an much smaller angle then 45 degrees
more suitable for an howitzer then an mortar I think .

[cannonmn]

Looks to me it could well be about 45 degrees inclination, especially when I look at the pointed part near the center.  Also, maybe the crew had specially-cut pieces of quickmatch to lay in that trough.

[cannonmn]

Here's one under the "Venice" link in Bob's set of links, that looks as if the vent was severely burned out, I mean way far gone, and it was re-bouched with molten zinc or something.  Or maybe I'm just looking at it wrong.  There's not much of a color difference that I can see, maybe a little. 

[dan610324]

definitely it looks repaired , the color remains about old zink or lead .
but do you think they used an metal with an that low melting temperature as zink has ?
and I really hope that they didnt repair it with lead , I only said that the color of the repair looked like lead or zink . but what I know they often used some brass aloy to repair touch holes .

here you got 2 pictures where you clearly can see the touch hole been repaired with brass ,
Im sorry if the second picture is a bit out of focus , but you still can see the brass color of the repair .

in the first you clearly can see the marks as they have used an very narrow chissel to clean up the burnt out touch and probably also made it slightly conical ( larger closer to the bore ) before they heated the hole and poured the brass .

this barrel is cast 1665 , so its very difficult to say when the touch is repaired,
could be just a few years after the cannon was made , but could also be as late as beginning to mid 1800 .
I would guess its an early repair as this time period was a very turbulent time in the swedish history with large wars almost all the time . after 1730 it calmed down more and more .

[Cannoneer]

Ive seen some old print of an mortar with an similar setup as the 11 barreled cannon , but I was so stupid that I didnt save it .
can anyone of you guys remember if it have been posted here at this site ??

Is this the print of a partridge mortar you're talking about?

[dan610324]

oooooohhhhhhh

thats the one   

its so beautiful, somehow it gives me ideas , but for the moment I got to many ideas and to little time 

[Bob Smith]

I am glad you all finding so munch interesting material on that site. I think the collections at Istanbul is one of the best in the world, but they do seem keen to keep it a secret! I am sure they have the largest collection of Venetian cannons in the world. We were in Venice last week and I was amused to discover that many of the guns in the Naval Museum were actually sent in 19th century by the Sultan because they had none left in the city.

Bob Smith

[Cannoneer]

definitely it looks repaired , the color remains about old zink or lead .
but do you think they used an metal with an that low melting temperature as zink has ?
and I really hope that they didnt repair it with lead , I only said that the color of the repair looked like lead or zink . but what I know they often used some brass aloy to repair touch holes .

Here's one under the "Venice" link in Bob's set of links, that looks as if the vent was severely burned out, I mean way far gone, and it was re-bouched with molten zinc or something.

 I've read where zinc was used on Dahlgren shell guns that were manufactured with two vents. The vents were off to the sides not bored on the line of metal of the gun, one vent was only partially bored, and the hollow area was filled with molten zinc. When the bored vent "burnt out" it was filled with molten zinc and the other vent was drilled (the zinc being easy to bore as compared with cast iron, which facilitated quicker repairs when asea); but I don't think zinc would ever be used to repair a vent meant to be used for ignition, it would burn out too quickly. 

[cannonmn]

but I don't think zinc would ever be used to repair a vent meant to be used for ignition, it would burn out too quickly. 

I think we'd all be surprised if we knew of some the things that happen during combat to keep firing, even if for a few rounds. 

There's a whole story behind the "International Gun" that helped save the legation at Peking in 1900.  It fired a bit then the carriage or a trunnion (apparently) failed and killed one of the gunners.  It was a real hodgepodge of barrel, carriage, and ammo none of which was originally meant to go with any of the others.

I saw this piece which was lying on the ground at USNA Annapolis, then didn't see it some years later.  The tube was a small iron one and was stolen by inmates of a nearby local college, then found years later by a landlady cleaning out a closet, and returned to USNA.

[Cannoneer]

According to the sign for the mortar bank, it would appear that the bores for the mortars are 59 mm.  If that is correct, that makes this artillery piece more of a grenade launcher.

Artilleryman, you're right, the bore sizes of this piece are about the same size as a grenade launcher, my open hand would cover three of the barrels.
I think this 6 barrelled mortar might be a miniature model that would have been presented to the Sultan or a visier in charge of procuring artillery by the Italian cannon maker that wanted to demonstrate his skill and artistry in gun founding, and for obvious reasons was prevented from bringing full scale ordnance to show.
If you look at the photo I posted under enlargement you'll notice that the sign that's next to the sign that describes this multi-barreled mortar lists a bore size of 45mm for the cannon that's in front of it (another miniature model?). 

[Bob Smith]

No, it was definitely not made for the sultan- the SA is the symbol of Sigismundo Alberghetti who was a cannon founder in Venice- he was actively involved in designing guns to defeat the Turk, not impress him- Venice and the Ottomans were at war in this period. I would guess it was captured, along with the other Venetian guns in the Istanbul collection. Nor do I think this was a model- grenade launcher seems closer to the description, but a real weapon.

Bob Smith

[Cannoneer]

There is a seperate listing of Italy and Venice under cannon in the URL you posted, I didn't know this piece was Venetian. You're right, it would not be a wise decision for a Venetian gun maker to be doing bussiness with the Ottoman Empire. Is it because of the fact that you think it was captured that it cannot be a model? Are you aware of any existing examples of grenade launchers of this size and configuration from this time period?

[Cannoneer]

I have an interest in fine art and have read about Italian sculpture of the renaissance, so I had heard the name Alberghetti before. Gun founders of this period often worked with sculptors in casting their works. I searched a little and found Sigismundo I, and Sigismundo II, who was the chief gun founder of Venice between 1582 - 1601, but he died in 1610; were there succeeding heirs with the same given first name, that continued the family foundry?

[Cat Whisperer]

Any hint of where, in Venice, to look for cannons and where to look for history of them?

[Bob Smith]

Funnily enough we had a lecture in Venice last week about this Sigismundo- active in 1670s and 1680s- made two visits to England to investigate the cast-iron industry to start up one in the Veneto. I think he was Sigismundo No 5. He was both an inventor of types of cannon and a techological improver. Because most of the Venetian cannons in the Turkish collections came from captured Venetian fortifications round the Eastern end of the Mediterrean, I had assumed this one came from the same source.

Here is a selection of online sources on Venetian cannon. The places to start in Venice are the Naval Museum, the Arsenal (you have to book a tour) and the Armoury in the Doge's Palace.

Collections in Italy
http://www.artiglieria.org/homee.htm
http://www.comune.firenze.it/servizi_pubblici/arte/musei/eng/c.htm
http://www.museopoldipezzoli.it/PP_inglese/
http://www.isspe.it/Dic2003/palazzolo.htm
http://www.polomuseale.firenze.it/english/musei/bargello/
http://www.marina.difesa.it/venezia/storia.asp
http://www.museiciviciveneziani.it/

Online articles
Morin M  Tre artiglierie veneziane a Copenaghen (e una a Parigi…)http://www.armigeridelpiave.it/pagineHTML/pagina3.html
Marco Morin “Artiglierie navali in ambito veneziano: tipologia e tecniche di realizzazione”
http://www.armigeridelpiave.it/SELEZIONI/Artiglierie%20navali.pdf
Pagano D Le artiglierie di Venezia – 2ª parte,
http://www.armigeridelpiave.it/pagineHTML/pagina3.html
Troso M  ‘Venezia e la libertà d'Italia’ http://www.armigeridelpiave.it/pagineHTML/pagina3.html

Websites; shipwrecks
http://rubens.anu.edu.au/raid4/turkey/istanbul/museums/military/cannon/venice/
http://rubens.anu.edu.au/raider6/europe_1104/italy/venice/museo_storico_navale/artillery/
http://www.teignmuseum.org.uk/pages/museum/maritime/shipwrecks.html
http://www.ulstermuseum.org.uk/collections/archaeology_and_world_cultures/armada/
http://www.derrycity.gov.uk/museums/tower.asp

Bob Smith

[cannonmn]

Bob, as long as we're talking about Italian stuff, here's something I've been researching for years.  It is about 3 feet long and made of high-phosphorous wrought iron.  The inscription on top translates from Italian into "Valorous hackbut wounds to the chest."  Guy Wilson at the Tower had his contract lab analyze a sample of metal back in '80's, the report says it is wrought iron very high in phosphorous, but there wasn't much else to tell I guess.  The beast seems to resemble the Pistrice sea monster that is depicted in a few medieval stone carvings and one or two paintings that can be found around Italy, particularly near the coast.  The bore is about 20mm.  It has original trunnions.  The bore is very rough and rusted.  The mounting and yoke are both 20th C. origin.  What exactly do you think this is, and do you know of another like it?