What do you consider Long Range

[teddy12b]

I don't understand how Aldo Leupold feeling bad about killing a wolf is very relevant or proves that one way of thinking is better than another.  According to the second paragraph did just want the wolves to keep the deer in balance instead of mankind doing the same job?  Please explain. 

Is there real research about how killing wolves effects the populations of deer, moose, whatever?  I know there's people on both sides of the fence with this and I don't really have an opinion either way since I've never been around them.  Just curious.

[Wyo. Coyote Hunter]

  Teddy, the wolves are destroying the elk herd in Yellowstone  & Northern Wy. The famous Sunlight Basin will be on special permit for elk next year due to the predation of wolves.. These predators were put there by the anti hunters to destroy our wildlife.  In the west these creatures were eliminated for a reason. Now fools who do not live here want to tell us how to run our state and the west. The Wy. Game and Fish knew how to handle wolves. They were to be trophy game in the area in NW Wy. but for the rest of the state, they were to be classed as predators and shot on sight.  The U. S. Fish and Wildlife ok'd the plan but some fool judge, who probably never saw any wildlife except in a bar, nixed the plan. Now we must come up with a trophy game plan like Id. and Mt. Most feel the best way to deal with these nasty creatures is SSS. Sourdough has seen what they do. For most, it is only by reading the crap put out to make wolves look like loveable dogs that they get their  information. In Russia because the people were not armed, they were a danger to humans. Because we were armed, they learned to keep their distance. Sourdough has the right idea. 

[Sourdough]

anweis:  Yes I am protecting the Caribou, by killing wolves, let me explain.  In the 70s and 80s we had a caribou herd across the river that numbered around 16,000 head.  It was a very good location to hunt Caribou, easy access, and good numbers.  When I was a kid I read articles written by Fred Bear where he hunted this Caribou herd, and I thought if I ever got the chance I wanted to hunt there just like he did.  Luckily I was able to get there before the Caribou were gone.  In the early 90s Wolves moved out of Denali National Park, and into the area.  In March of 1992 a friend and I while snow machining in the area witnessed a pack of wolves chasing Caribou.  They would single out an animal and chase it.  Then one wolf would spring in and grab the belly, ripping it open.  Intestines fell to the ground, and the Caribou would stop running.  When the Caribou stopped the wolves would gather around and look at it.  Sometimes one would grab the intestines and run, pulling them out of the Caribou.  Other times they would just turn and run off, leaving the Caribou standing there, dead on it's feet.  Within minutes they were chasing another animal, repeating the same process again.

Due to lack of snow on top of the ridges where this was taking place we were unable to do anything about it.  During the day we watched this pack of wolves hamstring or gut over 40 head of Caribou.  Fish and Game stopped issuing permits for that herd in 1997 due to low numbers of animals.  Today there is less than 1300 animals left.  Their only predators is wolves, usually from the Park, and Bears during calving.  So any wolf I kill in that area will help the Caribou and Moose in the area. 

I don't gather my experience listening to the bunk put out by the bleeding heart environmentalist, My experience is first hand being out there and watching the interactions of the animals.  Yes we need wolves, but very, very, very few.  When their numbers get high enough that people are seeing them there is too many.  You want to learn about animals in the wild, don't read books written by some guy that made a few trips out into the woods and now feel he is an expert from his observations.  Talk to the people that live there.  The old folks that raise gardens, hunt, fish, and live off the land.  They are the real experts.  It's just the people that print books don't want to print what these folks have to say, because Bambi indoctrnated city folks won't believe the truth.

Walt Disney, Great man, I love him, and I hate him.  He gave us Bambi, and Paco the wayward Coyote.  He gave wild animals human traits that has ruined the way many people look at wild life. 

Smoke A Pack A Day----------Wolves that is.

[ToadHill]

I've killed a number of woodchucks at 300 yards, I call that long range.  For a deer, no.

[Oldshooter]

Walt Disney, Great man, I love him, and I hate him.  He gave us Bambi, and Paco the wayward Coyote.  He gave wild animals human traits that has ruined the way many people look at wild life. 

You know Sourdough, I've long thought that convincing children that animals think, talk and feel the way humans do is an abomination and the reason that there are so many anti hunting young people in the world today! This is a very good point! A good reason also that so many have come to think of animals as equals rather than a food source! Have you noticed that all the childrens  TV entertainment, shows animals as characters rather than children. We had the little Rascals, and Sky king, they have the Backyardigans, and spongebob and some crabs!

Oops I have moved off topic!

[nomosendero]

    This will probably cause a lot of flak but i don't think most people know 50 yards from 150. I sure would like to see some of these 600 yard kills.
         bobg

And that's why they make rangefinders. 

It's the funniest thing, one of these type threads get brought to life again every time I leave for a week or two, it's a hoot. 

My shots in WY. were shorter than most of my other trips, but it is good to be confident for the long shot if needed. 

[Swampman]

Anything over 100 yards.

[Wyo. Coyote Hunter]

 :oSwamp, do you only hunt with open sighted sixguns???

[Sourdough]

bobg:  I can not speak for other people, but my partner and I carry lazer range finders.  Our range finders not only give us the distance to the target, but they also give us the angle + or - from our location to the target.  Then the range finder tells us the corrected range for the angle we will be shooting at.

Like my shot at the Grizzly last month.  The range was 620 yards, from the blind to the Bear.  The range finder said there was a 22deg angle down to where the bear was feeding.  The corrected yardage was 567 yards.  I dialed in 570 yards on my scope.  I took the first shot and the bullet went through both lungs.  With the equipment I use the range is the easy part.  Also setting up for the shot is easy, just a matter of dialing in the right numbers. 

The hard part is making the shot.  Having confidence in your equipment, setting up so the gun is totally solid.  Overcoming the movement from your heartbeat, that's timing.  Making the shot, then the follow through.  Every move is important, and has to be consistent with all the shots you have made during practice.

[Swampman]

:oSwamp, do you only hunt with open sighted sixguns???

I'm more in to hunting than sniping I guess.

[nomosendero]

:oSwamp, do you only hunt with open sighted sixguns???

I'm more in to hunting than sniping I guess.

Sounds like you just can't shoot.

[Swampman]

I can shoot very well and I've won my share of matches.  To me it's a problem to waste an animal.  This isn't a game it's serious business.  Too many things can go wrong and letting game animals die a slow horrible death isn't my bag.

[nomosendero]

I can shoot very well and I've won my share of matches.  To me it's a problem to waste an animal.  This isn't a game it's serious business.  Too many things can go wrong and letting game animals die a slow horrible death isn't my bag.

So 100 yards is a sure thing for you, but 150 yds. isn't, even though you have won "your share of matches".
Sure thing Swampie!! 

[Swampman]

Personally I can't see well enough at 150 yards to feel comfortable blazing away at game.  Paper isn't going to suffer or be lost to the coyotes.

[nomosendero]

Personally I can't see well enough at 150 yards to feel comfortable blazing away at game.  Paper isn't going to suffer or be lost to the coyotes.

OK, so it's just your limitation because of poor eyesight, fair enough.

[Sourdough]

Swampman:  The only game I have ever lost was shot at 20 yards.  I don't consider it blazing away at animals at 500, 600, on out to 800 yards.  I'm sure of the shot or I pass on it.  Just because other folks can't do it is no reason for me not to.  I do not advise others to make the shots I do.  I do not recommend anyone make those shots.  I have only met five people that have put in the time and effort I have to make this kind of shots at 800 yards.  And two of them are Marine Scout Snipers.  The guy whose blind I was using this fall is one.  He had shot the Moose that furnished the gut pile I was watching.  He had killed a Moose at 620 yards, one shot.

All the kids (10 to 18 ) I teach shooting to are able to hit a 4" clay target at 300 yards before they graduate my class.  So I have no doubt they could hit a Coyote at 400 yards, because I teach them about trajectory computing.  Beyond that they would need a lot of work.  And they know it because I tell them that.  But I have given them the basics to go out and do the same thing I do.

As for seeing at those ranges, easy.  I use a 3.5X15X50 Night Force Scope.  Brings them up to where it looks like you can reach out and touch them.

Just got back from the range shooting Black Powder guns.  We were shooting at a Moose silloutte from 100 to 250 yards.  The two guys I will be hunting with were hitting all over the target, even some clean misses, at 150 yards and beyond.  They keep complaining that the front sight covers the entire Moose.  I've got to do a lot more work with them.  At least I'm hitting right in the boiler room area.  I'm still recovering from the Flue, so I'm not shooting up to par right now.  My groups are about 12", but I've got an 18" kill zone so I'm satisfied.  Haven't lost a Moose yet.

[Swampman]

I can do it, I just don't.  I don't consider it hunting nor ethical.

[kevinsmith5]

Shooting beyond 100 yards is far from unethical. It's only wrong if you haven't practiced and don't use a gun capable of cleanly killing your game at that range. I've killed squirrels at beyond that range.  And deer, hogs, bobcat, coyotes, one stray cat, and a black bear.

While I don't advise it for many people (cause I shoot a LOT) I would take a clear shot on deer sized game at 300 yards if the wind was low. 

[Swampman]

I might too with one of my Model 700s, but not at 500-600.

[kevinsmith5]

While the chance won't arise again any time soon I have dropped a mule deer at 450 yards, which was the longest shot on game I have ever been presented.

[Sourdough]

Swampman:  Don't know if you have ever been to Alaska, but it's rough up here.  Anytime you find a nice meadow, it's deceiving, it usually has four to eight inches of water under the grass.  You can not walk far in that.  The tussocks found out in dry meadows are killers, two will support you then the third one won't, and down you go 4 to 48 inches.  I've always heard hunting in Alaska is for young men.  Well I'm not a young man.  I'm a 60 year old, disabled Vet.  Bad Heart, Bad Lungs, Bad Back, Bad Knees, Bad Feet, Arthritis, Overweight, and on top of that I'm diabetic.  The one thing I can do is shoot.  If it's within 1000 yards I can take it down with one shot.  I've never lost an animal shot with a rifle, it's always bang flop.  It's just as ethical for me to shoot a Moose at 800 yards as it is for you to crap one at 40.

It took us over two hours to get from the blind to the bear I shot,  and that was riding 4-wheelers.  If we had tried to get down there walking it would have taken us close to four hours.  By then the bear would have finished feeding and left.

Next month I am going Moose Hunting, and am practicing shooting at 250 yards.  I am limiting my shot to 250 yards or less since I will be using a Muzzleloader.  I will be doing good to get within 250 yards, since we will be hunting on snow, above tree line.  The snow will be deeper than the brush is tall, so there will be nothing to hide behind.  Flat and windblown, no way to stalk closer most times than 200 yards. 

I often make shots at wolves at 400 to 1000 yards, if you don't take the shot you will not get a second chance.  Hunting Wolves takes far more skill and knowledge of your pray than hunting any ungulate, Wolves are smart, and crafty.  They always set themselves where there is no way to stalk closer, there is nothing to hide behind.  At $150.00 to $400.00 a pelt, if it can be made, I'm taking the shot.  Again my 1000 yard shot is just as ethical as your 40 yard shot, same results.  Bang Flop.  If you still don't think so, OK, let's just agree to disagree.  Rog Hunter

[Wyo. Coyote Hunter]

 ;)Sourdough, After many of these discussions both on the net and in life, I have decided with long range shooting those who can do ... Those who can't are content to knock the pratice... I know plenty of guys who can knock of a deer or antelope at 500 yards no problem. But they shoot often, and have good equipment.. They know their guns and equipment. To me they are professionals.
I love long range shooting, but any more I seldom take much game at long range, but many varmits. I am sure you know your weapons and are deadly with them.. Most people have no idea of what precision shooter can achieve. It is both art and science. ... Anyway good luck on you muzzle loader trip.  I have one, and seldom shoot it. Maybe in the future, but for now I have many other things to do, and not nearly enough time to get 'em done.... good luck and good shooting......   

[Oldshooter]

I personally admire those that shoot long range! I have rifles that can and have occasionally made a long shot but the opportunities are rare here! Except at the range.

Now for a guy like Sourdough that only has  good eyes and fingers left(per his own words) Long range shooting is an exceptionally admirable venture!

Good shooting for as long as you can Rog! I am a big  fan!

[jro45]

My long range shooting is 600yds with two of my rifles. I could set it up for another rifle but I do not have the need.

[Tonk]

I have a lot of respect for those that can turn their rifle into a magic wond and hit the intended target down range at 800 yards or so. I know what it takes to be able to acquire those outstanding marksmanship skills. I used to shoot out to 600 yards regularly where we practiced but that particular property is no longer available. I would shoot song dogs far downrange but it just seemed more fun to hit then up closer using our calls etc. Nowdays I limit my big game hunting shots to 350 yards! Not because I want to bu the eyes and body are not what they used to be and we all have to except that down the road of life. I believe each and every hunter must tune in their own shooting ethics, what others do is up to them, as long as it is within the law.    

[Harry Snippe]

Long range shot to me is a few feet hold over taking a shot ,then lighting up your smoke just as you hear the 44/40 hit the steel plate fired from a hundred year plus single shot.
Seen with my own eyes ,what a 80 year old hunter can do with just one fouling shot .
This was a resonse to a question " Isn't there something better he could use deer hunting ?
So I guess beware of the "Man" with just one gun!

[kombi1976]

Harry, you have a point, and it is VERY tempting to choose one rifle and do ALL of your shooting with it.
But then if you hunt a wide range of game you have to choose carefully?
Single shots open up your options because you can load any shape bullet you like.
But then comes the next question......do you restrict yourself to one load?
Mmmm, tough question, right?
But that's all a bit speculative and off thread.
For myself my present abilities make me limit my range to about 200yds.
Since I started hunting feral goats in the hill country of the NSW Southern Tablelands I'm much more aware of the need to be able to take the shot when you have it.
The goats move across the hills in much the same way you fellas say the caribou move across the tundra.
It never seems very fast but you'll never catch them on their own terrain.
I intend to develop my skills at 300yds when our rifle club starts using the newly refurbished 300 yard butts which have not been in working order since the 1940s.
Currently most of my hunting is done within 150yds anyway.
My most used cals are .22 Hornet for smaller game and predators and 8x57 and 9.3x62 for medium and big game.
I also have a 303/25 but due to reloading issues I haven't been able to use it recently.
When I get it sorted I'll be fiddling with it and making it effective for longer shots although I'm not sure it'll be super effective on really long shots.
It pushes a Sierra GameKing 90gr HPBT at 2640fps and that adds up to a 250yd rifle unless you start holding over and under.
That makes a 10" drop at 300yds and not a whole lot of energy.
So I guess a long shot for me would be anything 200yds+.

[Graybeard]

I think the best definition of long range is any range beyond that which you regularly practice at from field shooting positions and beyond which you know with 100% certainty that you can correctly place your bullet on game from field expidient positions.

That will most certainly vary by individual.

[Scibaer]

well what is considered long range is dictated by the conditions your shooting in.
 if your in a swamp, a 100 yard shot would be long range, but 100 yards in a open field is not a long shot.
here in michigan, 100 yard shost are not very common, 35 to 75 yards are where most shots are taken and anything over 150 yards is considered a long range shot.
out west, a 150 yard shot is nothing, where a 300 yard shot is closer to the norm.
but any shot is limited by the shooters skill and if you are shooting past your ability at any given distance, then your taking a long range shot.