plain base versus beveled base

[45-70.gov]

i  hear  the plain base  is  more accurate

but  sometimes  i shave a little lead   on plain base-   that  can't be  good

also  seems  like  the beveled  base  you wouldn't  need  to  bell  the case so  much

beveled base  is like a mini-boattail

assuming  it  is heavy  for caliber  and  plenty  of bearing surface on  the rifling

what  is  your  experience?

[Graybeard]

My experience is that seldom are bevel base bullets worth the powder and primer it takes to send them down the barrel much less the effort to load them. If you're shaving lead I suggest you do a better job of belling the case mouth. I do still on rare occasions use them but do not expect accuracy past 50 yards with them and no fine accuracy from them even at 25 yards. For a plinking load in a handgun to 25-35 yards they are OK but for any other use I use plain base or GC.

[Lloyd Smale]

I agree

[AtlLaw]

seldom are bevel base bullets worth the powder and primer it takes to send them down the barrel

I have heard you express this opinion before and being a newbe to revolver reloading accept this on faith.  But I tell ya, it seems that MOST of the bulk bullets for sale out there, in 44 & 45 at least, are bevel base.  Matter of fact I was just going through the cast bullet supplier list and the only thing I could find, on the sites not blocked by the county anyway, were bevel based.   

I agree

Now if two men whose opinion I respect greatly make these statements, the question of plain vs. bevel, to me, is answered, matter closed!     Still got to find a provider though... 

[45-70.gov]

your  right  its  closed..........i  just  ordered  a plain base mold from veral
                                    send  the notes  and check  in  this  morning   .4595 WFN   405 grain



but  those  beveled  ones  looked  so much  easier  to  handle

[AtlLaw]

i  just  ordered  a plain base mold from veral send  the notes  and check  in  this  morning   .4595 WFN   405 grain

Well gov ol' buddy ol pal!     That sounds just about perfect!  Now let me tells you sumpin... I get down to the Fernandina area at least once a year.  If you want to cast and lube a few hundred of those bullets for me, I can stop by and pick them up.  That way you save the cost of shipping them to me!     No need to thank me, we're all friends here.  I'll be should be there around July.   

[45-70.gov]

sounds  good  to  me.......not  sure  about  a few  hundred....unless you  want  to  stand  over  the  pot for a while

but  you  are welcome  to  a good  hand full   of  every  thing  i  cast  if  you go  out  of  your way  to visit

will  trade soft  lead  to  get  some  hard lead

[AtlLaw]

sounds  good  to  me

COOL!  Say, how about pickin up a similar mould but for gas checks while you're fillin out that check!   

will  trade soft  lead  to  get  some  hard lead

Wheel weight type hard?

[Lloyd Smale]

the reason you find so many comercial bevel based bullets is most commercial caster use magma automatic machines to cast with and magma makes most of there molds as bevel bases because they drop from the mold eaiser and that prevents the machine from getting tied up. Try Mt. Baldy Bullets. I think he still sells bulk pistol bullets from good molds.

[shakey]

Veral claims that his LBT bevel base bullets do not suffer the inaccuracy problems as others because the bevel is much smaller.  Barely large enough to get the job done.

Would someone who has had experience with these care to comment?

[offhand35]

Veral made up a WFN mold for my 41 mag NMBH.  Because I have a custom made sizing die from LEE, Veral recommended getting the mold made with a bevel base. I plan to apply LBT Soft lube by hand.  Then he recommended sizing the bullets BASE first, and the bevel will help align the bullet as it entered the die. As he states in his book, alignment and bullet balance are of prime importance for accuracy.
I've had the mold for a couple of weeks, but have yet to cast any with it.......I hope to get  weekend afternoon for a casting session pretty soon....

[Cat Whisperer]

I recently worked up a set of loads for a .357 DE wadcutter (RCBS mould I think).  One set with HARD alloy another set with medium hard alloy.  It was interesting to see the differences in groups with comparable charges.  5 shot groups, alternating hard and harder every other shot (to eliminate differences in accumulated fouling). (The harder set shot better groups at the smaller charges; both fell apart at the high end.)

I would love to have two moulds - or one mould with two cavities - one slightly beveled one not beveled.  Same alloy, same set of charges.  That would be a good basis for comparison.

[Lloyd Smale]

could be but if i was shelling out over a 100 bucks for a mold i wouldnt take the chance. Mine would not be a bevel  base.

Veral claims that his LBT bevel base bullets do not suffer the inaccuracy problems as others because the bevel is much smaller.  Barely large enough to get the job done.

Would someone who has had experience with these care to comment?

[BBF]

 I bought a batch of Magma beveled base 350 gr.bullets for the 45-70. They were supposedly very hard cast( BH 22-25). I have not been able to find a load so far to make them group acceptable.

[jhalcott]

  I have a 225 grain Lee mod (.45 cal) and I was given a box of D&J 230 grain round nose bb .45 bullets . The Lee shot much better than the D&J's with identical loads. I've only tried 4 different loads with 3 different powders though. At least I am getting trigger time with this gun! Other bullets are going into 2" at 25 yards off bags.

[rbwillnj]

I don't know if you guys are talking rifle or pistol,  but I have done a lot of Ransom Rest Testing of pistol bullets for 45 ACP.   I have or have had H&G molds for both plain base and bevel base of the same design.   I don't see any difference in accuracy at 50 yards between plain and bevel with the bullets I cast.  Either gives me groups under two inches at 50 yards.   

A lot has been written about the importance of the bullet base for accuracy, and I absolutely agree with that.  The base must be flat and uniform, but flat is not the same thing as plain.

OK let the flames fly.   But at least I did the testing.

[Graybeard]

I won't argue with the specific results you obtained but will say that those results are NOT typical of what BB bullets seem to give normally. That is not the same as saying a BB bullet can NEVER be accurate just that they generally speaking are not. But then you only shot to 50 yards and if you notice in my reply and perhaps in Lloyd's I stated that they do OK to about 50 yards it's beyond that they become useless. Try it at 100 yards and tell us the results. I'm betting they will be drastically less accurate at that range.

I've said many times over the years they are OK to 50 yards but don't waste time on them at 100.

[rbwillnj]

Greybeard,  I know you said "OK to 50 yards".  I limited my comments to my personal experience.

I try not to generalize/extrapolate too much from my testing,  It is what it is.   So if you say bevel base accuracy falls apart after 50 yards I won't argue the point.   The standard of accuracy for Bullseye shooting is under 2 inches at 50 yards, and it takes a really good gun and great ammunition to meet that standard.   As I said, I've tested both plain and bevel base, and I don't feel handicapped by shooting bevel base bullets in competition.   Maybe if I take up silhouette shooting some day I'll have to do some testing at longer ranges.

What is the standard of accuracy for pistol at 100 yards??   

I'm not aiming this at anyone, so don't get offended.   There is more myth and folklore in reloading than any other area I can think of.  I've been led astray by it on many an occasion.   My answer is to do the testing and find out for myself.

[Graybeard]

Back when I shot NRA Silhouette matches I expected my scoped guns to do 2" or better at 100 meters as that's the distance to the ram. If from a solid benched position my gun and ammo wasn't up to hitting the ram head every time it wasn't accurate enough to compete with.

For iron sight guns the accuracy standard was harder to establish as it really depends more on how well the shooter shoots than the gun. Shooting free hand as the game requires it's hard enough to keep all shots on the ram anywhere even with an accurate handgun. But back in the days when I competed I was capable of shooting around 4" or so at 100 yards from the bench using my iron sight gun.

I never ran across a BB bullet yet that would take down the turkeys or rams with any consistency. Never saw a competitor use them successfully against me either.

They do OK on chickens and pigs but when you reach the turkeys you're out of luck using BB bullets. The same basically applies to full wadcutters they do fine to around 50 yards but beyond that they seem to fall apart accuracy wise fast.

In my competition guns I usually stayed with gas checked bullets I made myself and really never trusted any commercial bullet for use in a match.

[TommyD]

I won't argue with the specific results you obtained but will say that those results are NOT typical of what BB bullets seem to give normally. That is not the same as saying a BB bullet can NEVER be accurate just that they generally speaking are not. But then you only shot to 50 yards and if you notice in my reply and perhaps in Lloyd's I stated that they do OK to about 50 yards it's beyond that they become useless. Try it at 100 yards and tell us the results. I'm betting they will be drastically less accurate at that range.

I've said many times over the years they are OK to 50 yards but don't waste time on them at 100.

I am loading .45 Colt with Veral's 260 grain .452 LFN Bevel Base bullet. At 100 yards (measured) I am shooting 4 to 5 inch groups with my Ruger Super Redhawk and a 2x scope. I have found similar accuracy with both H110 and Universal.

Is this considered "good" accuracy for a stock Ruger?

Tom

[Graybeard]

Better than average I'd say.

[Autorim]

I find this interesting as I am in the process of testing various Mt. Baldy, Montana and Lasercast bullets in .357, .41mag and .45Colt. I am only shooting at shorter ranges, but so far, I can detect no accuracy preference to plain base or gas check bullets.

Nosler jacketed handgun bullets and all of their impact formed bullets have a small bevel and are very accurate. I am trying to figure out what could happen to a bevel base bullet between 50 and 100 yards that would degrade the accuracy when virtually all rifle match bullets are bevel base.

Optimum accuracy demands a perfect base and perfect muzzle crown. Maybe the results might be different if someone could produce a perfect gas check bevel base bullet.

I am not questioning anyone's personal experience - just wondering ?

[TommyD]

Optimum accuracy demands a perfect base and perfect muzzle crown. Maybe the results might be different if someone could produce a perfect gas check bevel base bullet.

I believe that the above is true because the crown of the muzzle has to "let go" of the base of the bullet in a consistent and repeatable way.

This may be the reason why bevel base can be potentially more accurate than plain base in a cast bullet.

It was once explained to me that in a bottom pour mould, the base of the bullet in contact with the sprue plate often has imperfections due to shrinkage, incomplete fill-out, and temperature variations. If the edges are not sharp and crisp, they will not "let go" of the crown of the muzzle in a uniform fashion.

The advantage of the bevel (even a very small one) is that the edge that is seen by the barrel is the point where the bevel begins its inward inflection, rather than the actual base that cools touching the sprue plate. Minor imperfections in the base will have less of an effect on accuracy because it is not in actual contact with the barrel.

I am neither an engineer nor a metallurgist, but this explanation makes a lot of sense to me.

The disadvantage is one of cost. You need a nose first sizer like the more expensive Star because the "up and down" sizers like the RCBS and Lyman will fill the bevel with lube.

Tom

[fowler]

I have to add in my recent experience with a LBT bevel based mold. My uncle ordered a 250gr LFN non-gaschecked mold from Veral for his new Bowen converted 44spec built on a 357 50th anniversary Flat top He didn't say he wanted a plain base so Veral cut what he would make for himself and it turned out to be a bevel based bullet. Well I do all the casting for us and I can tell you the mold casts and drops bullets incredibly uniform and easily and is a real pleasure to use.

But the only question is how does it shoot? We both figured the bevel base was a huge mistake but we decided to give it a try because we could always send the mold back and have Veral cut the bevel out of it. Well Doug set up at a 100 yards shooting a chronoed load of HS7 that pushed the bullet to 950fps and proceeded to shoot a 20 shot group from the Keith reclining position. All the shots we within 11" and 17 shots were within 5" at a full 100 yards! Now to be fair Doug can shoot, regularly keeping a full magazine from his Les Baer 45acp in a playing card at 50 yards off hand, but the load will shoot. And just to prove not was not a fluke he went back and basically reproduced the same results 2 weeks later.

So we are leaving that bullet as a bevel base and just plan to shoot the snot out of it in his Bowen and my new Lipsey's 44 special,,,,

[Default]

Will ,

  I have for many years now ( more for chits and giggles) used my springfield 1911 Mil-Spec to engage a 12" round steel plate at 100 yards .. mind you this is with copper coated candy but still in point of your question ... Usually i can get 8 for 8 on steel , But on average i have a flyer or two ...
 Not competing just like to do it for grins ..

  So yup that old war dog 45 of yester-year is quite good at 100 , Well mine is anyways      And a nice perk of long shots with the 1911 , On good days when the sun is just right you can watch the rounds go down range

   I am at present loading up some of the newly bought 45 LC  RNFP 250gr lead with a bevel and some 9 mil 147 truncated flat points also beveled ... I will be going out today maybe tomorrow and i will let you know how my golden boy lever action fares with these bullets at range versus closer targets ... from both the rifle and matching calibered pistol , Maybe I'll get lucky at the longer distances since that is what i had in mind for the 45LC lever action .. 


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