A couple questions from a novice...

[ironglow]

  Yes, I said a novice, even though  have had a CC permit for about 34 years. I have been a rifle shooter all this time and never really looked into the compact carry type guns. I have had hunting handguns, but they sure aren't concealed carry. Now that it appears that we may be more  likely facing terrorist attacks..I may want to carry often, so here are some questions.
   
  A) A revolver has about 2" of cylinder, so is a 2" snubby considered about the same ballistically as a 4" auto?

  B) I like the dependability of a revolver, but of course the capacity is down, is there a compact auto (e.g. Kel-Tec , PPK) that is utterly reliable with effective ammo (not FMJ).
 
  C) I have a cheap Bryco .380, but know I should get something better..I feel a bit unsafe  having one round "locked and loaded in a DA auto. Are there some DA autos that can be safely carried with one in the chamber? What do I look for to decide if a DA is safe carried that way?
   Any other info for a new-to-carry would be helpful, especially your experiences with dependability in very compact autos.

  D) Is a sub compact auto that is DA/SA, inherently safer to carry in a locked & loaded condition?

[jhm]

I have a Kel-tec P-11 9mm that I got several years ago, and it wouldnt bother me to know that was the only small handgun I had 10 + 1 not a target handgun but howmany are that are that size, not expensive and easy to carry, I dont carry it as much anymore since I got rid of the boat at the lake, but it was my favorite boat and tractor handgun.   Jim

[bluecow]

makarov 100%; goes bank every time.  a good snub is hard to beat

[dbriannelson]

  A) A revolver has about 2" of cylinder, so is a 2" snubby considered about the same ballistically as a 4" auto?

Because of the gas loss through the cylinder gap, a 2" barreled revolver would be best compared to a 2" auto.  But because of the differences in ammo used, it's not a useful comparison anyway.

  B) I like the dependability of a revolver, but of course the capacity is down, is there a compact auto (e.g. Kel-Tec , PPK) that is utterly reliable with effective ammo (not FMJ).

I don't know of any, but I've never been fond of autos except well-worn military issue pistols using ball ammo.  I'm sure you'll get better advice from others.

 

  C) I have a cheap Bryco .380, but know I should get something better..I feel a bit unsafe  having one round "locked and loaded in a DA auto. Are there some DA autos that can be safely carried with one in the chamber?

Double action autos are no more unsafe than double action revolvers when carried.  The hammer or striker is down on a loaded chamber and the firing pin blocked.  Even though I did it for a decade, I'm still a little nervous about carrying a single action auto cocked and locked - even the superb 1911A1 with the redundant grip safety.  Too many times at the end of an active day I've unholstered the pistol to find the thumb safety has been bumped off.  Never had an incident though.

  D) Is a sub compact auto that is DA/SA, inherently safer to carry in a locked & loaded condition?

No.  Not at all.

-Don

[Brett]

   First. Any hand gun should be your last line of defense.  When the SHTF your first priority should be to get you and your loved ones out of harms way (i.e.; run like hell or take cover).   The handgun comes into play when there is no way of escape.

   Don't discount the snubby.  In most instances armed confrontations involving civilians generally only last a few shots at spitting distances and the 2" snubby is plenty adequate in that role.  Furthermore the simplicity, and safety of modern revolvers is hard to beat.

   A subcompact DA only in at least .380cal is also a good choice.  I would put at least 200 rounds of the ammo I intend to use for defensive carry threw any auto without any failures to fire or eject before I would be comfortable betting my life on one.  + one on the Kel-Tec p-11.  These are a proven design in a very small package that hold 11 rounds of 9mm.  They are DA only and don't have or require any additional safety devices due to their relatively long, stiff triggers much like that of a DA revolver.  Another plus for the P-11 is that it gives has a double strike capability similar to a revolver only not on a fresh round.  If for some reason a round does not go off on the first try you get another chance by just pulling the trigger again without having to slap and rack.   
   



   

 

[ironglow]

  Thanks for the forthright replies guys, I appreciate your input. I do have one revolver..a Taurus 941 in .22 mag that I bought for hunting. I don't sell the .22 mag short, especially 8 of them..but the revolver has a 4" barrel, about 8.5 inches LOA..a bit tough to carry concealed very well.

[S.S.]

Get several of your shooting buddies together and have them bring their handguns.
go out and shoot for a while with them. You will probably get a diverse
selection to try and see what you like. I do not know how many diffirent models
of handguns I have carried and I am now back to a snub .38.
I do not and will not carry factory ammunition but that has been covered 
in many threads here before.

[williamlayton]

IG
Before we start---Hope you and yours have a Christ filled Christmas.
I am a big proponent of .45 cal, though there are some other Calibers--the .38 super and 9x23 that I like a lot.
I like steel guns though Springfield has made me think about this.
I like Sig--right out of the box--and the 239 is a good sized weapon. It is DA/SA. the 239 can be had in .40 and 357sig with the change of the barrel, using the same mag.
If I told you too get one, that might just be it.
Guess I will have too take another drive up that way and bring the arsenal--that would be a blast.
Blessings

[Mikey]

ironglow:  to answer your questions in alphabetical order::::

(A) No!  Autos fire from closed chambers and maximize the capability of the semi-auto round more than revolvers in which pressures drop and are diminished by the barrel to cylinder gap.  That might be one reason why revolver slugs are heavier than pistol slugs in similar bore diameters - i.e., 158 gn 38/115-124 gn 9mm; 230 gn 45 acp/255 gn 45 Colt - so that even if pressures and velocities are less the bullet is more 'oucher'.

(B)  No handgun is 100% reliable.  Revolvers can suffer squib loads that lock up the cylinder and, of course, autos can jam.  In either case what you are left with is a paperweight... As to choice of revovler or semi - I would rather have 5 rounds of 200 gn swc 38 spl than 6 rounds of 90 gn hp.

(C)  Do not feel 'unsafe'.  DAO pistols are meant, and designed to be carried chambered - what good are they if they are unloaded?  The Bryco may not be as expensive as a Walther but if it works, it works - use it.  If you are intent on examining the innards of every dao pistol you might encounter then understand what you are looking for - either a hammer block safety that cannot be released unless the trigger is pulled all the way to the rear or the hammer is dropped from full cock.  In this regard there is no difference twixt a dao semi or a dao revolver, literally - with either the trigger must be pulled through to bring the gun  to fire. 

If the Bryco fits and functions and works for you every time, save your money.  If in 380, use S&B ball ammo and forget hollowpoints and the like - you want as much penetration from a 380 as possible.

(D) No!  Look at the new Ruger LCPs- even though well designed they were recalled because they could fire if dropped.  A DAO semi firing pin, is I think, a 'captured' (held in spring loaded position) affair that is 'released' to strike the primer; some may have interal hammers that are also 'captured' but if dropped may spring loose and fire.

A dao revolver has a different style internal hammer and most often a firing pin assembly fixed to the frame which must be struck hard enough by the hammer, which in a dao revolver is not under spring 'capture', to detonate the primer.

Here is my suggestion:  Practice diligently with the Bryco until you feel safe carrying it - it is designed to be carried chambered.

Follow the advice given by S.S. - you may not see the variety you want but it will sure give you a good idea of what else you may wish to think about.

Don't change horses in mid-stream.  If your Bryco is in 380 and it works, don't dump it for something else in the same caliber - you just have to learn how to ride a different horse and the middle of a calvary charge is not where ya wanna hafta learn to do that..... 

Unless you are going to practice so much that you come to know, intimately, the workings of every style and type of carry piece out there, stick with what you have and practice a lot.  You have had a CC permit for 34 yrs, you should have accumulated 34 years worth of practice and experience with it.  You carry concealed to defend yourself - you should be as competent with your CC firearm as you are with your hunting rifles - after all, your life may depend on it.

If you are worried about more terrorist attacks and the possibility of having to deal with something like that then you need different guns.  You need a high cap semi-auto rifle in 223 or 7.62 caliber, a semi-auto or pump shotgun in 12 guage, and a high cap pistol in any caliber you can handle effectively. 

If you are concerned about a 'mall' situation, carry a spare mag or an extra load - mall shooters don't expect resistance or to be shot and think they can carry out their grand plan without interference - wounding or killing one usually brings that scheme to a quick halt.  Wounding or killing all of them is even better.  JMTCW.  Mikey.

[coyotejoe]

We all have our own prejudices and I prefer the revolver. Most, nearly all, personal defense shootings occur at contact distances and often involve a struggle for control of the gun. If an auto is fired with another hand on the gun or if any body part or clothing interferes with free movement of the auto's slide or blocks the ejection of a fired round the auto will certainly jam. It's really hard to clear a jam while being strangled, stabbed and beaten. A snubby revolver provides a very secure grip to the shooter and very little for anyone else to garb on to. Too many people get their notions of shooting from Hollywood, real life is very different. You're very unlikely to fire a shot at more than 10 feet and five rounds is plenty. Even if you encounter a street gang, shoot one or two and the rest will flee because they can, no one is going to stand and swap shots if they don't have to.

[jager]

Ironglow - I have a variety of "carry guns" from the .380 to .45acp with the larger caliber in a "XD" topping the list of "Rambo power". I now carry a  Keltec .380 as my "daily" weapon because it is so small and I find I will carry it with me all the times. I've also proved to myself that it is as reliable and safe as a "Snubby" (my previous favorite) by shooting hundreds of rounds without a jam.
   While I know there are more effective calibers than the .380, there is not a "smaller" pistol that is more concealable and I will not leave it at home because of a lack of holster, jacket, or coat. While it may be a "minimal" defense caliber, it is 100 times better than a knife (at least for me) and will always be in one of my pockets when I need it the most.

[SHOOTALL]

All guns have a manual of arms to be safe it must be followed , the double action revolver is the simplest to learn , but only the operator can be safe .
Any gun can fail , the revolver is more forgiving in Most cases but not all.
To compare the bbl. length just dosen't consider all the elements of being effective as a carry gun.

[ironglow]

Thanks for the info guys, I have learned much from each of you. I know it sounds goofy, but having had the CC for 34 years..I tried my handguns for hunting, especially for night hunting coon. I soon found that it was as convenient and more effective to carry a .22 rifle for that purpose.
  My concern is not so much for terrorists rampaging over the countryside, I have guns for that. My concern is more like shopping centers, stores or even church, as churches have been one of their "hate" targets, so I would like something for more or less "deep cover".
  The .38 snubby sounds good, especially if one could carry an extra quick loader. Seems like there used to be a strap, that would carry 5-6 rounds held in rubber or plastic "pincers", so they could be flat inside the pocket, but already lined up proper spacing for relaod; anybody know who made them?
  William... sounds super..would like to do some plinking with you again some time...

[canon6]

I and my wife both carry KelTec P11's. I have equipped them with the 12 round magazine available from KT.So you wind up with a 13 round ,9mm.We both use CorBon DPX ammo and could not be more satisfied.
The 38/357 ammo carriers you are describing are Bianchi Speed Strips.They come two to a package are available from most of the stores on line.   hth    Doug

[dbriannelson]

Ironglow, those were Bianchi Speed Strips.  I found one in a box from twenty years ago just last week, and it crumbled when I pulled out the rounds.  I have no idea if they're still made, but a quick google oughtta tell you.

I put all six of those .38 Special rounds downrange last Saturday. 

-Don

[SHOOTALL]

still made !

[jeep08ham]

Since I have been carrying for a number of years and the best all around pistol I have found for me.   Your opinon may differ but that is OK too.   I have carried revolvers as well as autos.  Been around law enforcement for 40 years as I grew up in a law enforcement family.   My favorite carry is the Springfield XD 9 subcompact.   Carry inside the waste band all of the time.   Very comfortable.  Also if you buy one now, they come with a 10 and also a 15 round magazine.    I use the Hydrashocks for self defense.  Have reloaded literally thousands of hard lead cast as well as jacketed bullets.   Have fired over 3,000 rounds and as yet, have never had a failure to feed or fire as it should.   It also has the grip safety.   I carry loaded all of the time.  Yesterday at the range one of the deputies had anew Sig.  Trigger pull was horrible!  Bet it was close to 10 lbs.   He was going to take it back and see what the dealer would do for it.   He sure liked my XD and shot a rapid fire 10 round group into a 3 inch group at 15 yards.   

[funshooter2]

Ironglow,
I've carried a .380 for years, both overseas and here in the states, and never felt undergunned. The ballistics are similar to a .38 even with a lighter bullet (maybe slightly in favor of the .38). I carry both a revolver and an auto, depending on my dress. My Kel-Tech .380 is almost always in my pocket. My NAA .22mag mini is always in my pocket. I also carry a KT PF-9, which is 8 rounds of 9mm. If you like the DA auto with a safety, take a look at the Taurus PT-111 and it also has the double strike capibility and is 13 rounds. The only auto that makes me nervous to carry is the Glock 19, but was the best shooting of any pistol I ever owned. Almost a hair trigger IMO and I sold mine to pick up the PT-111.
In the winter, I like my .357 snubbie, due to the extra penetration that may be needed with heavier clothes. All the guns I currently carry are very dependable and accurate with the HPs I shoot.
Like others have said, if your current .380 is working for you, stick with it. Then pick up something bigger, if you want.
As far as terrorists, they will likely use a bomb, in which place the crowd is out of luck anyway.  If it is defense, I've been in a few different situations and never had to fire more than 3 or 4 rounds. At least twice, just pulling the weapon ended the hostilities.

[ironglow]

  Thanks Guys;
       Rarely have I seen a question posed on a forum that recieved such thoughtful, measured responses speaking directly from experience.
Nobody shouting that their choice was so much superior to everyone else's choice, you each gave me valuable advice. Guess I'll try my Bryco a bit further, and if that doesn't prove out..look to something else.
   I do have a little Phoenix .22 LR that I enjoy shooting and may spring for the 5" barrel kit..but .22 LR may be just a bit light for the job.

[williamlayton]

Thinking about you and your situation. I may have a little more insight than some.
I think that I agree with your choice of a revolver. I might disagree with a snubby but maybe a little longer barrel.
It may be handy out in the field as well as domestically.
I am with you on this thought though. Nowhere is safe as it used too be and as times have changed we need too change also.
Blessings

[Graybeard]

I've paid minimal attention to this thread as it seemed to be getting lots of responses from folks who I felt knew enough to help out. I've not read all those responses and have no plans to do so But I will add a few of my own thoughts on the matter for whatever they are worth.

I'm 63 and will turn 64 come March. I got a concealed carry permit the first day after turning 21 and have had one ever since and carry pretty much everywhere I go and have since then. I've used a bunch of different guns for the purpose and today have a wide variety that are suitable to the task. I do vary what I carry to some extent based on perceived threat level and how I am dressed.

I do not feel comfortable with a cheap self defense gun as I feel that I am in effect betting my life and the life of my family who's job it is for me to protect and don't trust that to one that I don't feel is 100% dependable. That's something each person has to weight against their personal finances and what they are comfortable with. For me that would rule out the gun you have but depending on finances I realize for some that's as good as they can afford. How it fits in your budget I have no clue.

The guns I carry primarily these days when out and about are a S&W 638 which is the shrouded hammer light weight version of the stand by S&W snub nose revolver. I use it specifically due to the shrouded hammer as my primary carry method for it is in my vest or jacket pocket. When walking to and from my vehicle and a store it is in my hand and my hand in that pocket. I have absolutely instant access to it and the shrouded hammer allows me to fire it from the pocket without ever having to pull it out should the need for speed dictate that.

The next most carried is my tiny Kel-Tec P32. It's not that powerful but functions every time and the Winchester Silver Tip is rated as highly as it gets in this small caliber. It's an accurate little gun that goes bang every time. It's super light and tiny so can fit in a front or back pocket and be completely hidden no matter what you wear. Some times and some places it's about the most that can be easily hidden. I prefer more but it's one of those that you don't mind having with you any where any time and having a gun is the primary idea of carrying. One left at home or in the vehicle is useless when needed.

I'd really like to carry my Glock 27 far more than I do but it is kinda heavy and requires a holster which is much slower to put into action than having it in my hand as I can with the 638 S&W. It's more powerful and holds more rounds and isn't a lot larger over all package than the 638 but weights over twice as much.

All these guns have one thing in common. They are simple to operate and have no safety that I must fool with. It's just a matter of pulling the trigger to make them go bang without having to think about what else or which gun is in hand at the time. That simplicity is important to me. I don't want to have to think about what to do other than aim or point and pull the trigger. Dunno how I might react if/when the time comes. The more simple I keep it the better I feel it will be if I ever have to use it in anger.

I have other larger heavier guns I can carry but seldom do at least not on me. There are others in the vehicle ready for use should I need them from it but those are what are on me when I'm out and about and most likely to face a situation where one might be needed.

Think long and hard on what to carry and how you'll carry it and how you'll put it into use if/when the need arises. Do not use a carry method that takes you too long to get to the gun and put it into use. If you can't use it RAT NOW it might as well be at home or in the car. Dangerous situations develop fast and often with little to no warning. Time will be of the essence if/when you must use a gun to defend your life.

Keep it simple. The more things like safeties and releases from a holster you have to fool with the more time it takes to put it to use and the less likely you'll be able to get it into play in time. That's why the 638 is my main go to gun. Nothing is more simple than a revolver or more likely to work when the time comes it is needed. It has a hammer that can be cocked for a more well aimed shot should that need arise but the shroud allows it to be used from a pocket. My carry method allows it to be in my hand and ready for instant use if needed yet totally hidden and out of sight and mind of others. A lot of thought has gone into my selection of carry guns and methods. They work for me. Put that level of thought into yours and select what will work for you.

[cwlongshot]

Mikey and Bill gave it to you straight. Its good advice, it may take a couple reads to let it all sink in but its straight talk.

CW

[John R.]

I agree with Graybeard on this one. The guns I carry the most are a 45 XD Compact and a Ruger LCP. Both are point and pull type guns, meaning there is nothing to do but point the gun and pull the trigger. I will mention that I love 1911 autos, and I shoot mine a lot, as well as carried them often, but I really like that XD Compact. It holds 10+1, or you can use the 13 round mag if you need it. The LCP goes with me when I can't carry anything bigger (mostly summertime in Miss.)

[SHOOTALL]

sometimes its nice to have a gun that takes some effort to shoot if you work in places where you could have it taken from you .

[cwlongshot]

sometimes its nice to have a gun that takes some effort to shoot if you work in places where you could have it taken from you .

 This is something that has NEVER ENTERED my head. It reminds me of a couple basic fundimentals an instructor drilled into my head years ago.
 
1) Dont carry if your not going to or or not willing to use it.
2) Dont pull it untill you need it.
3) Dont let anyone who dosen't need to know that you even have it.

CW

[SHOOTALL]

That sounds good in a perfect world . But sometimes stuff happens !

[Graybeard]

While NOTHING is impossible I just cannot foresee a set of circumstances in which my carry guns would be taken from me. I have them IN MY HAND ready for immediate action should I need it. My hand is inside a pocket of a vest or jacket with that gun in it. I can fire from inside the pocket.

A bad guy would play hell taking it from me prior to me ventilating his hide.

These are the kinda things that need to be thought out long before the situation arises and having a carry method that prevents it from being taken from you while also allowing quick access is the key. Without those two factors being planned for you'd be better off not carrying. If I felt it likely my gun would be taken from me and used against me I'd either not be carrying or not be there to begin with. Most likely the latter. I can say that easily where you might not be able to. I'm retired and do not have to go anywhere I don't want to go.

[SHOOTALL]

GB , cwlongshot ,
I  respect what ya'll say , also what your instructor says .
But in some cases where i work i am in the minority and often the other side is fortifyed with drink or drugs or both . Being over powered by a gang or someone druged to the point they feel nothing is a real concern . Being able to disable a gun may or may not help . maybe they fumble with the gun and you can get to your back up gun/knife . Or get away. One instrustor i had said it is better to take an azz whipping sometimes than to kill an unarmed man and go to jail .
In one class i took we saw a film of a GA. State Trooper pulling a guy on pcp , long story short the trooper shot guy in the chest at point blank range with a 45 hydra shock , the guy grabed the trooper and was getting the better of him , the trooper droped the mag. and threw the gun . He hit his emg. button and help came . the guy was smaller than the trooper . The trooper was out for a bit and the guy tried to make the gun less the mag. work , it did not .
the option can be useful as can a more complicated proceedure to fire .

guess it ain't what JOHN WAYNE would do , but it ain't hollywood either .

the film was from the dash cam from the troopers car and the guy on pcp died after a couple hours .

[docmagnum357]

The onlt thing i would add, as a ccw instructor, is that the gun has very little to do with concealability.  You may have to modify your dress, or mode of carry, but you can carry pretty much what you like.  I daily carry a 6.5" n frame.  I have yet to find a gun/holster combo as slick as a longer barreled n frame, a Sourdough holster, from Simply Rugged, with the inside out snaps.  The Big gun is heavy, but I am begining to need suspenders anyway.  I am not suggesting this rig for everyone, merely stating that I and others, do cary big guns and still go about our daily affairs un noticed, and very well armed.  I have less trouble drawing the big gun than some others might have getting a j frame out of a jacket pocket, even with a hand aready on it.  With that said, I would feel pretty good with just a j frame, or what I used to have, a Colt Detctive special.  They really will shoot through a pocket, negating the need for a draw.  Overall good advice, just please, please, please don't limit your thinking to a "concealed carry gun".  A four inch medium frame 357 is a real gun, and most people can find a way to carry one of them, or a "service " size auto easily.  I am not a fan of "chopped" autos.I will be very honest with you, I would rather carry my full sized 22 target pistol, which fits ny hand like a glove, and live with the lack of "power", than I had carry my GLOCK 23 (trading it monday or tuesday)  I just plain can't get a good grip on the GLOCK, and therefore I can't shoot it.  I never had that problem with j frame Smiths, or the DEt special.  Long and short of it?  Get something you can hit with first, then find a really good holster.  Size does matter, bigger is better.