1911 recoil springs

[1911crazy]

Not too long ago i worked on my norinco and installed a full length guide rod with an 18# recoil spring.  Now it shoots with less recoil and cycles faster and smoother with less overtravel. 
Now i have one more question;

How do you know you have the correct recoil spring in the 1911.

 Should i go to a higher recoil spring like a 20# to see if it gets even better?  If it gets better should i go to a 22# spring.  I don't want to sound dumb here but should i go higher until it doesn't function with the ammo i'm using then back it down until its functioning properly and stay with that?

I already purchased extra springs back when i was working on it.  I'm just trying to figure out how do you know when its perfect and at that sweet spot.  My norinco functions awesome now but could it be even better?

[rbwillnj]

Use the highest recoil spring that your gun will still function with.   Its better for your gun, and better for you.  However, if you switch to a less powerful ammo, you may run into function problems.

[1911crazy]

Your right i haven't given that much thought. I mainly shoot wolf 45acp ball ammo out of my norinco and my newer AO army ww2 copy.  I guess i'll set up one of my other 1911's for shooting my 45acp 200gr swc's.(lighter reloads).

The stronger recoil spring in my norc sure made the handling much better.  The timing between the first and second shot is a lot faster too.

I guess I can tune every auto pistol by having an assortment of stronger recoil springs at the range to try and figure out which one is the best for the rounds i'm using.  I don't change my ammo brands at all lately.  Its been the wolf brand for my pistols lately.

[rbwillnj]

Also keep in mind that recoil springs don't last forever.   The more you shoot the more power they loose.   I'm not going to recommend how often you should change out recoil springs, I have seen opinions on this that are all over the map.  I can tell you that if you compare a spring that you have been using for a while to a new one of the same weight, you will probably see a difference in length of an inch or so.   If you don't see a big difference in length, keep using the old one.

[rbwillnj]

By the way, I have an accurized Colt Gold Cup that I am using for Distinguished Pistol matches.   I'm using a 22# spring for Federal 230 grain factory Hard Ball ammo.

[1911crazy]

Do you think the spring loses length/tention just sitting in the pistol under compression?  Even with the chamber closed too. This would make me wonder about the quality of the recoil springs too.  Who manufactures the best after market recoil springs?

Having an engineering test lab background a 18# spring isn't a 18# spring so all of them aren't equal from different manufacturers they can also vary too.  I've seen so much stuff vary in the test lab from the orginal specs to the specs as tested.   Now with recoil springs it makes me wonder....

If you have a race gun for competition do you leave the slide/recoil spring apart to save the spring tention until practice or race day?

[Mikey]

Crazy:  the spring isn't going to lose any real tension just sitting in the gun.  If you stored the pistol with the slide locked back and the recoil spring under full compression you would lose tension pretty quickly.  I have picked up Gov't 1911s that have sat in storage for 10 years and they work just fine.  Quality springs last longer, I'm sure.  And you are absolutely correct about differences in spring tension.

Race gun - same same.  Shoot it, clean it, put it away until next time.  Good springs should last 5K rounds or more, and are inexpensive........... Mikey.

[1911crazy]

I think were around 500rds in both my norinco and my new AO ww2 copy.(1,000rds total)  I wanted to make sure there reliable before i holster them. (CCW)  I have the 18# recoil spring with the full length guide rod in both of them.  I won't go any higher with the spring in the AO because its new and still tight yet.  I'm going to play with the norc spring.  I'm very surprised how much quicker it cycles between rounds too with the stronger spring. It has a second shot ready in mili seconds.

I guess I'll purchase some extra recoil springs too there cheap enough.  I'm going to play with one of my cz82's in 9mm mak to see how calm it will be with a stronger recoil spring.  I'm going to tune my 9mm's too.

I'm also going to play with the norinco too with the new adjustable trigger and a stronger recoil spring to see if the accuracy gets any better.  In the end I may try swaging the frame rails just a little.  There really loose on the front end.  Then i'll live with what it shoots after that.  Its no gold cup nor will it ever be one i just want it the best it can be without putting too many $$ into it.

[jpuke]

Quick follow up question this (thanks for the original question 1911crazy) - I pulled my gun apart to clean it yesterday and the recoil spring seemed to have a "kink" to it, it was just a bit bent compared to the other spring that I have.  I don't really think the bend will matter as the space for the spring to move around in is pretty small - should I be worried that the spring got a kink in it and what may have caused it?

[Mikey]

jpuke:  I wouldn't worry about it.  I do not believe the 'kink' happens when the pistol is 'working' - I think it happens when the pistol is re-assembled and the spring kinks a bit during that process.  There is not enough room for it to kink when it is working.  JMTCW.  Mikey.

[1911crazy]

This is what sent me towards the full length guide rod.  I heard the recoil spring kink when i operated it by hand.  Then i talked with "Mikey" here about using the 18# recoil spring.  And i seen that www.sportsmansguide.com had the 1911 full length guide rod kit with the 18# recoil spring on sale for $9 man i jumped on that with me being frugal.  I purchased extra kits too.  With the added weight up front my recoil is between 1 1/2" to 2" now and its straight up.  My 1911 is very controllable and cycles faster and smoother too with less over travel.  Sorry i have said this many times but its well worth doing.  I did put moly on the recoil spring and the guide rod too.  I really like my 1911 now its fun to shoot.   Now if i can calm down my 5 1/2" barreled 44mag.

Sportsmans guide had both full length guide rod kits for the 1911 in full size and the commander serires too.

[Savage]

Although a couple of my 1911s have full length guide rods, I'm no fan. It hasn't been proven to me that it does anything better than the original design. If you want to play with recoil spring weights, go to Wolff Gunspring's site and order the "Calibration Spring Pack". They are pretty much cutting edge in aftermarket gun springs.
Savage

[tomray]

Use the highest recoil spring that your gun will still function with.   Its better for your gun, and better for you.  However, if you switch to a less powerful ammo, you may run into function problems.

I agree with rbwillnj,.......................I use Wolf 22# springs in my 45's, and a Wolf 28# spring in my Delta Elite 10MM
They all also wear a buffer......................Never a problem with any of the guns.


Tomray
NRA LIFE

[williamlayton]

Cutting a portion of the spring is an OLD fix if the recoil spring is too heavy or too light. It is better too experiment with different springs arther than tamper with the spring itself, IMO. There are others who would disagree.
When you find one you like, don't do as I did once and say too myownself "AWWW, I can remember that." No you can't, write it down.
Keep a log book on each weapon. None of us are as smart as we think.
Blessings

[1911crazy]

Cutting a portion of the spring is an OLD fix if the recoil spring is too heavy or too light. It is better too experiment with different springs arther than tamper with the spring itself, IMO. There are others who would disagree.
When you find one you like, don't do as I did once and say too myownself "AWWW, I can remember that." No you can't, write it down.
Keep a log book on each weapon. None of us are as smart as we think.
Blessings

Ditto;  On the log book for keeping records on whats been done.  I forget already your right.

[Lloyd Smale]

im in the lighter is better croud. My full sized guns that are shot in competition with lighter loads get 14lb and my combat guns get 16. the 16 will function with most lighter loads and still work safely with ball ammo. Ive put many many thousands of rounds through my guns and have never had one beat up because of running a 16 lb spring. What i use is wolf variable rate spings only and i change them between a 1000 and 1500 rounds. Whats nice about running a 16 is that if crap ever hits the fan i can run about any ammo i got loaded in it.

[rbwillnj]

I mainly shot competition, both Bullseye and IDPA, and mostly Bullseye.  You won't win any competitions if your gun keeps jamming. Reliability is very important, but not a matter of life and death.  Also I'm not worried about things like lint or dirt getting in my guns and I never start a competition with a gun that hasn't been fully cleaned lubed and ready to go. 

Now for most competition (except Distinguished Pistol) I'm shooting reduced loads.  In my 45 wad gun with a red dot scope mounted on the slide, I use a 12# spring.  On the 45 I use for IDPA, I use a 16 lb spring for 230 grain cast bullets with a reduced load (~3.6 grains Bullseye), and as mentioned before, I use a 22# spring in my Service Pistol for Hard Ball loads.    In each case, the choice of spring was determined by putting in progressively stronger springs until the gun didn't work reliably, then drop back.

I wouldn't use the same procedure for a self defense gun.  Varying conditions, lint, and the need for a bigger margin of error make it necessary that your not operating anywhere near the edge of reliability.   Of course I don't put 20,000 rounds per year through my self defense guns like I do with my Bullseye guns.

[1911crazy]

im in the lighter is better croud. My full sized guns that are shot in competition with lighter loads get 14lb and my combat guns get 16. the 16 will function with most lighter loads and still work safely with ball ammo. Ive put many many thousands of rounds through my guns and have never had one beat up because of running a 16 lb spring. What i use is wolf variable rate spings only and i change them between a 1000 and 1500 rounds. Whats nice about running a 16 is that if crap ever hits the fan i can run about any ammo i got loaded in it.

Even if you went up to an 18# spring you would see a big difference in less cycle timing and less over travel.  The pistol will chamber the next round very fast plus it will cut down on the recoil and the 1911 is more controllable too. Its a night and day difference with the 18# recoil spring and the full length guide rod kit.   We gain controllability too.

I understand with the lighter loads a lesser # spring is needed.

[Savage]

On the 45 I use for IDPA, I use a 16 lb spring for 230 grain cast bullets with a reduced load (~3.6 grains Bullseye).
Little below power factor there partner---------
Have to confess, my IDPA load in CDP is a little marginal. (4.8 grs BE, 200gr LSWC) . I use an #18 spring in both full size and commander. No battering or function problems. I like all my guns to run with my pratice loads as well as full power stuff without changing anything. On my way to and from a match, I frequently carry the gun I'm shooting that day loaded with my carry load. I don't have a wad gun, so that works for me.
Savage

[rbwillnj]

Everytime I've chrono'ed it  it makes power factor.  Maybe it's 3.7 BE can't remember.  Remember, I'm shooting cast lead.  With cast bullets you get 80-100 fps higher velocity than with the same load in jacketed.   In any case I've started shooting a 38 Super that I built, and no matter how low I take the loading it's way over power factor......But I only shoot IDPA once in a while these days.  I've been concentrating on Bullseye and Trap.

But we're drifting.

[SharonAnne]

I run the heaviest spring I can that also functions perfectly.

[Savage]

rbwillnj,
Yeah, with the 230gr you only have to chrono about 725 to make the CDP PF of 165. I have to go about 100fps or so faster with the 200gr.
Either way the 18# recoil spring works well with either loading.
Savage

[Lloyd Smale]

i guess we will have to agree to disagree. Recoil isnt a consern to me as im downloading anyway. I wouldnt have a full lenght guide rod shoved up my you know what! and ive seen a good number of 1911s that had reliability issues corrected by nothing more then a slightly lighter spring. Ive got 1911s that have well over 50000 rounds and this way has worked for me in them for both reliability and longevity. I still think the biggest mistakes people new to 1911s do is add junk like recoil buffers full lenght guide rods and springs to heavy thinking there protecting there precious new gun and do nothing but cause reliability problems. Me, i use my gun to protect me not me protecting it. the only downside i see to my way is a guy has to replace the springs a tad more often because as they wear they loose tension. No big deal to me to put a 8 dollar spring in once in a while. I have to wonder what half the guys that run 20 lb or heavier springs spring tension actually is. I know of many comp shooters that dont even know how to change them. they will quote me what weight spring they run and not even realize that after a 1000 rounds it no where near what it was originaly and is probably closer to my 14-15lb recomendation then they think. How many times have you heard someone say they didnt get there gun to settle down till they had about a 1000 rounds through it? 

im in the lighter is better croud. My full sized guns that are shot in competition with lighter loads get 14lb and my combat guns get 16. the 16 will function with most lighter loads and still work safely with ball ammo. Ive put many many thousands of rounds through my guns and have never had one beat up because of running a 16 lb spring. What i use is wolf variable rate spings only and i change them between a 1000 and 1500 rounds. Whats nice about running a 16 is that if crap ever hits the fan i can run about any ammo i got loaded in it.

Even if you went up to an 18# spring you would see a big difference in less cycle timing and less over travel.  The pistol will chamber the next round very fast plus it will cut down on the recoil and the 1911 is more controllable too. Its a night and day difference with the 18# recoil spring and the full length guide rod kit.   We gain controllability too.

I understand with the lighter loads a lesser # spring is needed.

[1911crazy]

I didn't have a functioning problem to begin with. When i installed the stronger spring i heard it kink when i ran the slide so i tried a full length guide rod kit and the kink noise is elimimated.  Plus the added weight in the nose adds to the less recoil too. I just wanted it to handle better with less recoil.

[lashlaruhe]

I believe that if you investigate the standard recoil plug and dust cover, there is approximately 7/16" of spring that isn't captive already in J. Browning's original design.  IMO, the recoil spring is fully captured before the brass has left the chamber.

[1911crazy]

One more thought why is there wear on the side to side (right & left) on the frame and slide rails on the used 1911's?  Could the stronger recoil spring with no guide rod cause this?  Could it be pushing more on the slide horizontally causing more side pressure.  I figure the recoil spring is binding causing the increase in side pressure while its only noticable wear wise.

[jimster]

I'm on the 16 lb wagon myself, and I have to say springs are cheap enough to replace too.  If someone fixes an occasional feeding problem with a heavy spring, I think they are just covering up another problem that could be fixed without a heavy spring.  I really don't like the idea of the slide slamming home harder than it needs to either.  Over the years I've experimented with full length guide rods, buffers, and neat stuff, don't use any of those anymore, just a plain ol 1911 with nothing extra that works is good enough these days.  That being said....I don't shoot competition these days at all, I do shoot for practice and fun and carry a 1911, so there are lots of sides to look at and I have an open mind about these extra things that people put in their 1911's. 

[1911crazy]

With my slightly modified norinco I can give it to anyone, even with no pistol experience and they shoot 1 cloverleaf per mag with it. My son and his girlfriend both did it on seperate targets. I would think seeing this on paper at 20/25 yds would make me think my changes are working in the right direction. They both have no pistol experience at all.

[Savage]

With my slightly modified norinco I can give it to anyone, even with no pistol experience and they shoot 1 cloverleaf per mag with it. My son and his girlfriend both did it on seperate targets. I would think seeing this on paper at 20/25 yds would make me think my changes are working in the right direction. They both have no pistol experience at all.

Extremely good ju ju, and all the planets are aligned. Otherwise Les Baer would like to know your secrets. 
Savage

[torpedoman]

the same spring that is strong enough to reduce the slide impact on recoil increases the slide impact on the fwd stroke. If your brass lands within 5-6 ft you have got the right spring.