Comment

[chucky52]

Thanks to Veral for his comments in another cast thread. Further, Veral made the comment that you can't obtain accuracy from cheap cast bullets. Not to be a wisearse; but, I've been shooting for years against shooters using Meister, Oregon... Hunter's Supply... These guys are commonly NRA AAA or Master class shooters. To do that you have to have a sub 2" group @ 100M, free handed. The firearm I compete against is either a Contender or lever action, again free handed and standing. Most competitors have a 2 to 4 minute wobble, while shooting freestanding.

I'm gonna buy the book and read it because it interests me. I presumed that I wouldn't embarass myself by asking a question about commercial cast bullets and my point is the threads are for casting purists. I'm not mad or looking to pick a fight. I just wandered into a thread that I thought would help me avoid re-inventing the wheel. After all, I did see a sticky listing all the cast bullet vendors. I guess the term accuracy is relative. In my sport 40+ hits freestanding is considered accurate and pretty difficult.

Happy casting.

[chucky52]

Well, that's a knowledgeable, non-inflammatory, appreciated response. I'm still feeling like the thread is for casting purist. One other thing, I buy cast bullets because I don't have time to cast myself. It's all I can do to reload and shoot once or twice a month. Heck, I shoot a lot of rimfire to avoid time reloading. I have done a bit of development with Jacketed and will work on the lesser expensive commercial cast bullets. Can't see any see any sense in buying cast if jacketed is just as cheap. It's about shooting for me. If I can make them work and they're not expensive, I'll use them.

Not gonna cast for myself, just no time. Sure would like to see a beginner's guide to cast shooting, maybe a sticky or faq. After quite a bit of time, I finally learned that the copper has to be removed from the barrel to shoot lead. As I stated, anything to reduce time spent re-inventing the wheel is what I came here for.

Thanks,

[chucky52]

yep, and if you don't have 'em they're not always easy to acquire.

[Veral]

  I've shot a lot of 22 rimfire while cutting molds for too many hours a week to have any steam left to cast and reload, so I read you loud and clear Chucky.  When I had to have my nose to the grindstone, it gave a lot of relaxation to just step outside the shop and pop off a few clips full of rimfire ammo.
  As for learning that all copper must be removed to make lead shoot, you have learned an old wives tale.  It only has to be removed if it is built up enough to change the barrel dimensionally, to the degree that the cast bullets are not well guided.  Which is the same reason jacket fouling hurts jacketed bullet accuracy.  It builds up most in the throat, which leaves the muzzle oversize and bullets flopping, so to speak as they fly to the target.  Worst case of fouling buildup which I've measured was a .309 barrel at the muzzle which produced a pushthrough slug of .300 diameter when it went through the area just ahead of the throat.

  Light jacket fouling which doesn't change the barrel dimensionally does nothing to cast performance, IF LBT BULLET LUBE IS USED.  It MAY with some other lubes, and may not.  If you want to settle this solidly in your mind, shoot some cast groups through a jacket fouled barrel, clean it till it's spotless and shoot some more.  In the fouled barrels which I've found inaccurate with cast a push through slug always revealed a tight area down close to the throat, with loose muzzle.

[Veral]

  Chucky.
  When I came to this post this evening I realized that Mr Small has taken the liberty (which I've allowed) to an extreme that I can no longer tolerate, so, without reading any of the contents, I deleted everything since my last post.

  This is a hard thing to do without being offensive, yet, must be done to prevent being offended myself and allowing a forum which I pay for to be ruined by people who don't understand what this forum is.

  I am a moldmaker with 30 years experiance, and have developed Lead Bullet Technology and bullet designs far beyond what was available when I started.  The purpose of this forum, which is clearly spelled out in the first locked in posts, is for people who want answers from me to get answers from me.  All comments and questions, no matter how small or complicated are welcome.  If you or anyone follows my advise and doesn't get the results I promise, ask, ask, ask, and we'll get to the bottom of your problem.

  In the future I will delete all posts which answer TECHNICAL questions asked to me, and give answers which I know to be true, totally free of old wives tales, fables and theory, all of which I hate, because I spent so much fruitless effort trying to get cast bullets to perform, when that was all the information available.

  If I sound like a know it all with the way I  answer, so be it.  I stand behind every answer I give, and if my answers are not clear or understood, will spend as much time as necessary to clear up any missunderstandings.  If I'm unsure of anything, or just plain don't know, I have no problem at all flatly stating so.  There are lots of people who know a lot more than me about almost everything. (Except cast bullets.  ------ of coarse!) If I make a recommendation as to which mold to get, and a customer purchases it but it doesn't do what I promise, I will replace it free of charge with one that does what I say it will. -- On the other hand, I will not stand behind what anyone else says.


  In a nut shell:  I am a teacher with unlimited patience regardless of how little, or how much, my student knows, nor how hard they are to teach.  I have been doing it, without help, or outside confusion, for 30 years with excellent results.  That's what this forum is about.  More than one teacher and there will be dissagreement.
  Take my hand and do what I say and you'll get results.  I will no longer waste my VERY limited time trying to explain away the opinions of others who answer for me.  As it is, I put quite an effort into answering this forum once a week and quite often it goes to two weeks.  It MUST go smoothly as possible.

[chucky52]

What?

[Veral]

  No insult to you Chucky.  It's just a problem which has gotten out of hand with the forum and it happened when you posted.  Don't go away.  Ask whatever and you'll get your answers from Veral
Smith, which is what this forum is.

[chucky52]

I believe I figured out the event. Let me rephrase an earlier question. I think I said this: i"m trying to convert to over the counter cast without reinventing the wheel. I refer you to my prior question about 94 gr Meister in the 32 H&R, TC Contender for NRA silhouette. My poverties are time and money so if I can avoid part of the process of reinventing the wheel, great. Let's say you have a perfect 94gr lead bullet and you shot 85 gr jacketed hornady's to qualify as Master class in hunter pistol, centerfire. Does this sound like the right cast weight? Anything else I should consider, we already covered copper accumulation. As I look thru my reloading manuals I find more options than can be tested in lifetime. Is there anyway I can narrow the field with reasonably priced over the counter cast. I know others are doing it. I also know most copy somebody who already had a working recipe (from a manual).

My apologies if I contributed to a problem. I wasn't intending to test a load which couldn't be double checked in a manual and I do understand the term"legal liability." Surely there is some science to this rather than pin the tail on the donkey. I've become so frustrated with this effort, If I don't resolve it on short order I will go back to jacketed and their ridiculous prices. I did get some valuable advice in this process; but, if I can't resolve this soon, my patience will be run out and back to jacketed it is. Don't take offense, I don't mean any! It's just the way it is with time and money as your personal poverties.

[chucky52]

After seeing the load data being passed around on the "handgun silhouette" sight, I can see why one would do it on this sight without thinking.

[Veral]

  I have a serious problem in that I have no idea what any commercial caster is making.  So, to try to tell you anything, I'd be sticking both feet in my mouth, to use an old cliche.

  'Take offense', my friend!  Why should I, at you or anyone else who makes a small error.  My wife claims I've even made a couple myself.  I read you loud and clear about the need to just purchase the lowest price effective ammo you can.  I did it for years before I got into cast and let it become a passion.

  So far as Libility for load data, no attorney will take a case for such, because only God knows how much powder actually gets dumped into a case.  I split a perfectly good Ruger 44 cylinder following published load data exactly,  except I double tripped the measure and there was more than enough room for two charges.  Since that if I use less than half a case full of powder I charge all the cases in a loading block, then visually inspect the level.

  Working up loads safely with any bullet powder combination is simple once you understand how to measure relitive pressure.  My book Jacketed Performance was mentioned somewhere in this thread I believe.  I strongly suggest that you get it, as it will help you define bullet quality, problems you have with cast, and how to fix them, and teach you how to work up loads safely as I stated above.  It's available from LBT for $30 post paid anywhere in the US.  You can email me at LBTisAccuracy@Imbris.net   and we can sort out any questions you have, or go to my website at        LBTMoulds.com   see what all we offer, and be able to read a lot of whys hows and whatnots about cast bullets.  With all this information you can make wise choices about which bullets to use, by purchasing only a hundred of each and testing them

[chucky52]

Got some info from the handgun silhouette site and will try that. If it doesn't work, I'm done reinventing the wheel. I am gonna buy and read your book, soon. Maybe I'll try again after that.