223 FMJ prohibition proposal appears to have failed

[Dand]

Last night on the news I heard that the Board of Game has outlawed the use of full metal jacketed bullets in .223 caliber for the whole state when hunting big game. I don't know more details so need to watch for the final regulation. It wasn't clear to me if its just for the .223 Remington or if they mean for any .223- .224 caliber centerfire.  The reporter was a bit goofy talking about stainless steel bullets so I emailed him an extensive discussion on bullet construction with links to Hornady and Nosler for an education. I HATE it when the press tries to embellish the information.

Also, I think wolves are considered big game so I wonder how this will work out. Also, I see the troopers having a LONG road ahead convincing many bush Alaskans to buy more expensive ammo, even though I agree FMJs are bad for most hunting.  Wonder if all FMJs will be outlawed soon. This really snuck up on us I think.

Check out the news item here:
http://aprn.org/2008/12/09/full-metal-jacket-bullets-up-for-statewide-hunting-ban-this-spring/

[thxmrgarand]

The radio news report playing in SE AK (on Communist Radio, also called Alaska Public Radio) ties using .223's to shooting from boats at deer on the beach and not following up to see if the deer is hit.  The feds allow this shooting at game from a boat and the state does not (and for non-Alaskans, the feds and the state both manage fish and game here as of several years ago and it is a mess!) because often beaches are too rocky to allow anyone to go see what they hit.  While FMJ bullets are not ethical for big game, I don't believe a particular caliber is the problem.  Few who actually hunt deer in the woods use a .223 because of the tendency of brown bears to come investigate shots and sometimes claim the deer.

An earlier news report, also on Communist Radio, on the same situation has Bd. of Game member Ben Grussendorf seeming to blame the .223 caliber on the wanton waste of caribou incident in which many caribou were left to rot in the NW.  It was unclear from the report if Ben doesn't like semi-auto's, the .223 caliber, or something not indicated or clear.  There is much political correctness in the way the media reports the news and possibly the radio station tried to edit this report into something it's not and in doing so they made it nonsensical. 

I will lose my confidence in Governor Palin if I don't soon hear of indictments over the caribou incident. 

[Dand]

thx,  I heard part of that Grussendorf piece too and wondered what all he meant. I respect Ben quite a bit but I hope he is careful.  More and more people are using semiautos for hunting in a very responsible manner and I'd hate to see them get disenfranchised. In fact since I've learned the AR based rifles can be bolt action accurate or better, I am interested.  At the same time, there ARE a bunch of knot heads who DO use the spray and pray method, herd shoot, use FMJ and I wish there was a way to get them to be responsible without a whole lot of burdensome laws. But Grussendorf's status and comments might get over played by the anti hunters etc.

I agree on that caribou massacre. I hope something comes of it. The election and Sarah's national attention seems to have buried that mess.  Maybe its a time to email her and Joe Masters of the Troopers and ask what's going on. Come to think of it I watched Joe grow up and consider him a friend. I should drop him a note. That event should not get buried.

Please don't be too hard on Public Radio but DO ask for accountability. I'm on a program advisory committee for our public station here and try to keep them honest - hence I sent the reporter a long tirade on bullet design. He's never answered. Also, after watching a REALLY offensive TV program on ARCS, I complained to the APB board and cc'd my legislators telling them if nothing better could be aired, then shut the program down. A local member of the board caught me at the airport and told me they were finding more family friendly programs to air right after the evening news. Raising a little fuss can work.

[Winter Hawk]

Wow, when did FMJ become legal for big game?  I distinctly remember that the regulations years ago required soft point ammo.  Full metal jacket bullets were required by Geneva Conventions to prevent the horrendous wounds soldiers were getting during WW-I from dum-dum bullets.  The desire was to get pass through wounds without expansion of the bullet.  In hunting we want the expanding bullet for a more humane kill.

I don't know what happened with the caribou massacre you wpeak opf.  However, around 1977 or so there was a big fuss because fish & game found piles of dead animals up on the North Slope.  It seems the locals would find a bunch of caribou and kill them, then haul home what they could.  Then when they went back for the rest, they would run into a band of animals closer to the village.  Why go the extra distance if you can just shoot the ones which are closer, right?  I suspect something of the sort may have happened again.

-WH-

[Sourdough]

Many predator hunters use solids or FMJs to lessen pelt damage.  Especially for fox.  An expanding bullet at close range will cut a fox in half.

Yes,  Wolves are classified as Big Game. 

[Dand]

here is the note I emailed to the troopers and Guv's office a day ago. I'll get back when I get a reply.

Dear Commissioner,

First Joe, let me congratulate you on your appointment!  I really get a kick out of seeing you there after watching you grow up.

Second, one of the hunting forums I visit has ongoing low level muttering about the lack of action on the big caribou massacre that happened last summer in NW Alaska.

I thought I should just contact you to ask what has become of that case?

Has there been any progress, citations, or indictments made?

Sure hope something can be done as that was a terrible waste.

I've heard [the investigating trooper ] was in on the investigation and I have the highest regard for his work.

I'd sure appreciate learning whatever the newest information is on this case.

Also, good luck on enforcing the new Full Metal Jacket regulation - that will require a lot of public educate out this way - as  you well know.

[Dand]

I got a note back from the commissioner today.  He says they are working on the case but can't talk about it. He promised if they get sufficient evidence they will be working with the DA to prosecute the case.  I know one of the officers on the case and have no doubt he'll do everything he can to bring justice.

hmm  guess I've kind of hijacked my own thread.

[bilmac]

I remember reading an article in American Rifleman about Eskimo hunting techniques. In that story they talked about a leaning towards the 22 hornet as a hunting rifle because with a Lee tong tool, the difference in portability of components was an issue for them. Really living off the land especially in the arctic is way different than sport hunting.

But I doubt there are even any Eskimos depending on their dogsleds any more. I doubt that the new rules are set in stone yet if what they say is still a rumor. Talk to your troopers and legislators and other people who can influence the decision, and let them know about the concerns about wolves.

[Dand]

There is a 45 day legal review period after a regulation is adopted. I think Dept of Law uses the time to be certain the law gets properly codified as well as assuring its constitutional.  I'll have to contact some of the managers.  Really it wouldn't cause a crisis, just that enforcement could be a pain and compliance could be slow in coming. 

[bilmac]

I would think that anyone who can afford snowmachine gas to hunt, and that is just about everyone, could afford the difference between FMJ and softpoint bullets.

[corbanzo]

Correct me if I am wrong, the only limitations on number of cartridges allowed in a gun while hunting in Alaska, is 2+1 on migratory bird shotgun hunts.  I was actually just looking to see if I could find anything in the regs, but is seems to me that the number of shells you can put in your gun while hunting is unlimited.  You just can't use a "machine gun, set gun, or shotgun larger than 10 gauge" - or with a .22 rimfire.

Now I can see why they would restrict this type of projectile (FMJ), as it can cause more suffering for the animal, but it really doesn't solve any problems.  If people can still hunt with hi-cap semi auto weapons, then the possibility of the same problems (caribou slaughter, deer, etc) happening isn't going down any. 

If they restricted the amount of rounds which a gun can hold to hunt big game, that would make a lot more sense to me.  Now I don't have anything against using semi-auto weapons for hunting... but I really don't see any need for carrying more than 5 or 6 rounds in your gun at one time. 

Also... the last couple of overrun bullets I bought were soft points... and I got them for CHEAP.  I would really like an explanation of their thinking... I mean, I know the basis of the arguement... it's not an effective hunting bullet so don't use it...  but really what you are saying is, you can't use this bullet to cause trouble, so use something else. 

[while99]

The Hague Convention of 1899 banned the use of expanding bullets, such as hollow points.  The U.S. and Great Britain voted against that item and, when it passed over our objections, the U.S. and Great Britain decided not to abide by it.  That's why our snipers can and do use Matchkings.
The Geneva Convention has more to do with the treatment of prisoners.

[williamlayton]

Obsevations from an outsider.
Please note this appendage: I am unfamiliar with much of the use of 223 for hunting. I have little in common with subsistance hunting in the part of the US I live in.
It seems too me that shooting from a boat is not a bad way too hunt.
It seems too me that shooting from any place where there is no chance/little chance of checking for a hit and tracking for final disposing of a wounded animal is almost beyond belief.
It seems too me that if you are hunting small game, and I think a wolf counts as small game in this sense of use, a person of intelligence would use a FMJ---Also I would expect them too have available a mag with expanding rounds/ammo.
I don't see the need too get into a prolonged debate on the number of rounds in a weapon.
A slaughter is a slaughter, and act of killing for the joy of shooting something without the desire or means too use what is killed for the purpose with which it was intentended too be hunted.
I can't understand why there are two different agencies operating under the same roof with different rules. This is confusion too the NTH degeree and asking for trouble.
Blessings

[williamlayton]

An after thought or PS.
I have come too respect the many who post here and, in general, the population of Alaska.
I would suspect that you cannot expect ALL of the public of any state or nation too have and use good sense.
Blessings

[Dand]

William, I'll try to touch a few of your points:

First, Alaska's regulations are pretty complicated and vary widely around the state and whether the hunting is done under sport regs, state subsistence regs, or under Federal subsistence regulations on Federal lands.  Very confusing and commonly very controversial.

In most of Alaska shooting from a boat is only allowed if the engine is not moving the boat. However in parts of SE I believe wasted game (shot and not claimed) has caused prohibitions of shooting from boats. Yes it is beyond belief but I think Alaska runs behind much of the lower 48 in getting hunter ethics well established. We're trying hard but some folks retain the frontier attitude that there's lots of game, or that if nothing drops they must have missed. I think actually there has been a breakdown in ethics as some folks have gained enough money to buy lots of ammo. In the days where $ and ammo were hard to afford, shooters tended to try to make sure each shot brought home meat. Times are easier now and some folks try to make up with spray and pray what they lack in skill - this same group may prefer to buy cheap bulk fmj ammo, not bothering to learn the difference from better performing expanding bullet ammo.

In Alaska, the wolf is big game. Regarding carrying 2 types of ammo: a few do but probably most don't - see the part above on the lack of understanding of the different types of ammo - or lack of care.

And they different agencies and different rules - you are right - as I said above it is extremely controversial on many levels. Folks tolerate it as no law suits have succeeded or been tried that overturn the confusion. But its a low boil issue among many and can flare up at any moment.

As to your PS -  yeah you probably know the saying: Why is "common sense" so uncommon?  Or to be more fair, there are always a few who just can't follow the rules.

If you want to see for yourself on Alaska's hunting regs, google Alaska Dept Fish and Game, Hunting Regulations.  We have a very locally based system for making regulaitons and while it gives a lot of citizen control (which I like and support) it also creates a lot of varying regulations.  Add to that the Federal Government imposed subsistence regulations that actually arise out of the terms of purchase when USA bought Alaska from Russia, to assure Native (read Aboriginal) Alaskans land claims, as well as allowing construction of the oil pipeline.  I may have this a little garbled but its not simple and I probably don't understand it as well as I should.

And remember Alaska is HUGE, so it is just not possible to have simple regulations (esp seasons and bag limits) for the whole state. We are 1/5 the size of the rest of the whole USA, cover 4 time zones if we figured them geographically instead of arbitrarily - and so on.

[Winter Hawk]

Dand,

I believe that the subsistence regs came about with ANILCA (Alaska National Interest Lands Conservations Act) (I hope I got that correct!).  ANCSA (Alaska Native Claims Settlement Act) was supposed to extinguish all Native claims by setting up the corporations and giving them land and money.  When ANILCA was being debated the subsistence question came up before Congress, which proceeded to require a subsistence preference but neglected to define it, which was then quasi-defined by the courts.  Prior to that, you could get a subsistence hunting, trapping & fishing license for a quarter if you met certain requirements, such as being on food stamps or earning less than $3600 per year.  A friend of mine in Eagle used to pull his traps when he figured he had that much in furs, just so he could get the subsistence license.

-WH-

[thxmrgarand]

Yes, I agree that ANILCA brought the rural preference, and the word rural was used rather than the word Native because the ANCSA had given the Natives (in theory anyone anywhere in the world who is at least 1/4 Alaska Native but in practice people with far less than that fraction were included) $1 billion in cash and 44 million acres.  Congress had said that extinguished all Native rights so far as Alaska Natives having any right that trumped the right of any other Alaskan.  The ANCSA money was tax free and sales of timber and other resources from the land made many instant millionaires.  At any rate, the Alaska Constitution says that the natural resources, including fish and game belong to all the people.  So the Constitution is at odds with the rural preference.  Congress refused to define rural and the federal bureaucrats have been very subjective in their many definitions over time.  The state H&F license for people earning below a certain income amount had nothing to do with subsistence in that the license received was no different from the license the rest of us have to buy so far as following fish and game laws.  Subsistence rights on the other hand supersede not only fish and game laws but sustained yield according to the feds.  The feds treat Alaska exactly the way the English government of King George treated the Colonies prior to the Revolutionary War.  An interesting facet of this situation is that Alaska lawmakers have to swear to uphold the Alaska Constitution yet a few of those lawmakers openly back a subsistence preference for Natives or rural people (depending upon the lawmaker).  This is a terrible mess and the resource is suffering as a result.  The wanton waste of caribou incident (only the latest incident) is a good example in my opinion.       

[Sourdough]

One thing explained to me by a person that lives in the bush.  The state of Alaska puts AR-15 type rifles in the villages for the Alaska Scout program.  The state also furnishes the villages with large amounts of ammo for these guns to keep the Scouts in practice using the guns furnished.  Since there is a glut of free ammo that is what the locals use for hunting as well.  Since this is Military Surplus ammo it is FMJ or Ball ammo.

[Dand]

And for those not familiar with Alaska subsistence law and its history, reading the last few posts gives one a hint at how touchy the topic is. I think there are accurate statements within each post.  One can see the heat that gets generated from a discussion about it. 

Sourdough, you may have a point.  Here in Dillingham we used to have a more active and obvious  National Guard unit but I haven't seen or heard of any activity for several  years since the local leader died. There was a time when they did some active firearms training here but don't think any has occurred for several years. Quite a number of guys were sent to Kuwait for 12-18 months.  But they weren't Scouts that I know of and I don't know that much ammo was allowed to wander home with the troops - possible.

It looked to me like guys around here just bought the cheapest stuff and for the ARs, SKS, AK, that was full patch.  A side note, lead shot was used for years after the lead shot ban was in place. Lately it appears non-toxic is taking hold as enforcement has been more active, non-toxic clinics were held in a lot of villages, and lead ammo is a bit harder to get.

[williamlayton]

I am most greatful for the replies---they clear a lot up.
Being from another large state, I can understand regional laws/rules being different, and, in some sense this is reasonable.
I really do enjoy the reads here---but I put on a coat when I read.
Blessings

[Sourdough]

Dand:  You live in Dillingham, do you know the guy that used to run Wattier Repair?  Diesel mechanic named Chuck.

[Dand]

Sourdough, I haven't heard of that business and I've been here since 1989 but the last name sounds vaguely familiar but not Chuck.   But there are business that cater to the fishing fleet that, unless  you need them in the summer, you just don't know they are here. Don't see any name like that in the phone book. Can you tell me more?

[torpedoman]

full metal jackets should be outlawed for hunting their purpose is to wound not kill. I war it is far better to wound a man than to kill him. if wounded he ties up resources ,men to tranaport him to aid ,and people at the aid station to care for him. The bullet were not designed to be lethal but rather to wound and tie up resources, This assumes you are at war with a people who value life.

[Dand]

I just recently learned that the regulation to prohibit 223 FMJ ammo for hunting has not been adopted yet and will be considered at the next Board of Game meeting in Anchorage Feb 27- March 9. Friday the 13th was the last day to get written comments included in the board package, but the BOG staff will accept and forward comments right up until a regulation is adopted in the meeting.

In our advisory committee meeting there was little support for it and much opposition. One reason was that for a number of folks, outlawing FMJ ammo or especially 223 for big game will force them to buy new rifles when they have no money to do so. Enforcement could be a problem if there are other legitimate game to be hunted at the same time. And so on. How would the BOG view a Barnes or Nosler all copper alloy bullet?  A few folks seem to carry Barnes or other brand of solids for brown bear - at least I find quite a few in the back stop of our range every fall - premium stuff not just milsurp.  And if they get into describing bullets as expanding or non expanding - what does that do to the folks using hard cast LBT type bullets in rifles or handguns?  This proposal could open discussion and possible regulation of caliber as well as type of bullet. I see this proposal as opening a real can of worms for hunters - just what the antis want.  I'd hate to see  it get to bickering over whether a .222 is enough gun or allowing  marginal "rifle" calibers but prohibiting potent handgun calibers or visa versa. 

I wrote the BOG encouraging them to proceed slowly, maybe deferring this for a while to have more public discussion and education as to ethical hunting and good hunting practices - much more of that needs to be done in Bush AK.

Add to that the rapid changes we're seeing in bullet materials and design. Heck this month's Rifle Magazine had an article about the 223 and discusses deer hunting quite a bit. And from a number of my friends in the lower 48, I get the impression that more an more folks are successfully taking deer with .224 cal rifles as the bullet technology improves. And it sounds like a lot of deer are being taken with 7.63x39 cal ammo. NO I still don't personally like the idea of FMJ ammo but I think this proposal could turn into a mess if the discussion is allowed to get too broad.

The proposal number is 244 and can be found online at the State of Alaska, Department of Fish  & Game website under: 
http://www.boards.adfg.state.ak.us/gameinfo/meetinfo/2008-2009/Spring%202009/propbook-sc-2009.pdf


Note:  This proposal was deferred by the Board of Game from the Fall, 2008 meeting.  It was previously listed
as Proposal 48.  The author’s intent for proposal 48 was that it only apply only to Units 1-4.  The board amended the proposal at the Fall meeting to apply statewide and for all calibers.

PROPOSAL 244 – 5 AAC 92.085. Unlawful methods of taking big game; exceptions.  Modify the methods
for taking big game Units 1, 2, 3 and 4 as follows:
Big game in Units 1, 2, 3 and 4 may not be taken with the use of 223 caliber full metal jacket bullets.
ISSUE: Full metal jacket bullets are designed for maiming people in time of war. Soft tipped or solid bullets
are designed to kill. 223 full metal jacketed should be a prohibited bullet type for the harvest of big game in
Southeast Alaska (primarily for deer).
WHAT WILL HAPPEN IF NOTHING IS DONE? Continued loss of big game due to the wounding,
maiming or crippling due to the use of an inappropriate type of bullet for hunting. Bullet wounds do not bleed
openly as an indication of being hit during tracking. The silver of stainless steel zips through the animal and
bullet impact may not be apparent if a body shot occurs while the animal is moving.
WILL THE QUALITY OF THE RESOURCE HARVESTED OR PRODUCTS PRODUCED BE
IMPROVED?  The proposal will reduce the loss of big game and improve the quality of the resource
population by minimizing or reducing waste.
WHO IS LIKELY TO BENEFIT? All big game hunters who desire a healthy game population and strive to
achieve clean kill shots.
WHO IS LIKELY TO SUFFER? All big game boat hunters interested in harvesting deer on the beaches that
desire shooting deer from 223 caliber semi-autos loaded up with non-hunting bullets.
OTHER SOLUTIONS CONSIDERED?  Most bullets available to the public as full metal jacket are in the
223 caliber so prohibiting use of all caliber of full metal jacket appears to overstep the primary problem.
Hunters have access to 223 caliber hunting bullets and ammunition at very reasonable costs.
PROPOSED BY:  Bradley Shaffer (HQ-09G-028) 

[Dand]

I talked to our local wildlife biologist today. Though he didn't attend all of the Board of Game meeting, it is his understanding that the board decided they couldn't legislate good hunting ethics.  An unethical irresponsible hunter could as easily carelessly wound game with a 375 H&H while a careful hunter could be humanely taking large game with single shots from a .223 Mini 14. So I understand after extended discussion, the whole proposal failed in all forms. I understand there was a time when a magazine capacity restriction was considered as well.  All this is unofficial until the department of fish and game comes out with their news release and summary.

Sounds like overall, wisdom and restraint prevailed.  Good democracy is a wonderful thing!

[thxmrgarand]

Some suspects have been identified and are to be prosecuted under state law for the waste of the caribou incident.  That incident prompted this statewide discussion about using a .223 for taking big game.  The discussion was somewhat wrongheaded in that the waste of the 100 +/- caribou had nothing whatsoever to do with the types of firearms or calibers used.  Alaska Public Radio and one Bd. of Game member may have been purposefully or inadvertantly moving the discussion away from the violation.

[Sourdough]

I got a list of the things the Board rules on at the meeting in Anchorage.  That proposal did fail.

[Dand]

great and thanks for the confirmation. 

Sourdough, is that list available on line? 

Our biologist is busy trying to count moose with the fresh snow and in between blizzards and volcano eruptions so  he hasn't had time to sit down and disucss the BOG results.

[Sourdough]

Dand:  here is an address that should get the info for you.  Rog

 http://boards.adfg.state.ak.us/gameinfo/meetinfo/2008-2009/Spring%202009/roadmap_mar09.pdf

[Dand]

Thanks Sourdough.  I look at the regs in some parts of the state - even the lawyers must get confused.  But I'm glad to see some of the worst proposals died a proper death.