Author Topic: Perfect Youth Deer Rifle? (Read 2795 times)

Buano · « **on:** December 12, 2008, 05:39:28 PM »

I'm searching for a good used deer rifle for my 10-year-old daughter. What's the consensus between the .243, .257 Roberts & 7mm-08??? (Her shots will be under 250 yards.)

If I don't find someone with a good used rifle I'm leaning towards either the Savage youth (which comes with a muzzle-brake) and the Weatherby Vanguard youth (which comes with a full-sized stock to be used after the youth is no longer a youth). Thoughts on either?

victorcharlie · « **Reply #1 on:** December 13, 2008, 03:48:41 AM »

Maybe a Ruger Compact?

If shots were shorter, less than 100 yards, I say .357mag would be a very good choice as recoil is low, it has plenty of caliber and mass with a 180 bullet.

Val · « **Reply #2 on:** December 13, 2008, 04:12:33 AM »

I'd go the .243 without the muzzle brake. Recoil is pretty light on the .243 and you can start her with lighter bullets (85grains?) to keep the recoil down even more. The muzzle brake when she gets older and more expiernced might be superficial and ugly.

Tunaman · « **Reply #3 on:** December 13, 2008, 05:36:42 AM »

If you can find a 257 roberts, I would go with that. I have my 9 you daughter shooting a mod 70 fwt in 257 bob and it works great for her. She enjoys shooting it rather than tolerates it. When we were deciding what rifle she would shoot this year, we lined up a bunch of choices including a 240 weatherby,243, 7-08, 260 and the bob and she hands down choose the bob. I have to admit, I rather like the Bob as well. The reality is that you really can't go wrong with any of them but the Bob is without a doubt a perfect deer cartridge. I actually hunted with my bob yesterday and I killed a 170 pound 8 pt at 160 yards. It was a good double lung shot and he went 20 yards and piled up. I can not complain about that. Good luck with your daughter. Getting the girls out there is about the most fun that you can have out there.

dpe.ahoy · « **Reply #4 on:** December 13, 2008, 09:14:45 AM »

I've got all 3 of them and all will work fine. I like the 7mm's the best, but the 257's work good and my 14 yr old son got a nice 4x4 mule deer with the 243 I gave him this year. The Vanguard is a little heavy but with the full size stock included, it's a good buy. That muzzlebrake will be LOUD. Can cause a flinch as easy as the kick, just from the sound waves that you will feel much more than hear with hearing protection. DP

TribReady · « **Reply #5 on:** December 13, 2008, 09:52:28 AM »

My daughter is 5'4". We ended up getting a Savage/Stevens 200 in .243. Fits her perfect.
I'd probably go with the 7-08 in hindsight, but this rifle is 2 for 2 so far, and a joy to shoot, so I'm not regretting it one bit. No recoil whatsoever and shoots 3/4MOA right out of the box.

Don't necessarily limit yourself to youth sizes. Have her try some out.....they grow really fast also!

My other daughter and son will start off with Handi-rifles in .243. They're a bit smaller...although my son may end up being 6'6" 300# at the rate he's going

I have really come to like the Stevens 200's and it seems they're a good, inexpensive option.

BBF · « **Reply #6 on:** December 13, 2008, 10:14:49 AM »

While you are looking, don't forget the 260 Rem. 6.5X55 or the
250 Savage (250-3000)
IMO you can't go wrong with the Savage or Stevens if the latter fits her.

AtlLaw · « **Reply #7 on:** December 14, 2008, 06:20:48 AM »

I followed up BBF's post on your duplicate post on another forum. Wore out my finners so I won't repost it here!

EdinCT · « **Reply #8 on:** December 15, 2008, 02:21:21 AM »

I started my boys with a 6mm Rem model seven youth because I found one at the right price. They were both good shots (better than alot of men I've hunted with) and they never lost a deer and shot more than a few. At ranges up to 281 lazered yards.
If deer are all that they would hunt I would say 243 if anything larger will be on the menu I would recommend the 7/08or 308. My youngest now uses my 7/57 and I can't get it away from him when we hunt together.
I beleive a good stock and hearing protection is just as important has caliber and I would avoid the muzzle brake for that reason.
Also I always loaded 100 gr Nosler Partitions for the 6mm for insurance but I know of plenty of folks who use cup and cores in 243 with good success.

WyoStillhunter · « **Reply #9 on:** December 15, 2008, 04:54:31 PM »

This topic comes up pretty frequently. My contribution is not about caliber or brand. I think it is extremely important that any young shooter be able to physically handle the chosen rifle in a safe manner.

If a youngster struggles to simply lift, hold, work the action, etc. they cannot give the appropriate mental attention to safety, or marksmanship for that matter. Whatever you choose be sure the young shooter can physcially control and manipulate the rifle. If they aren't big enough or strong enough to do that wait until they grow some more.

BBF · « **Reply #10 on:** December 16, 2008, 05:50:02 AM »

Those Ruger shorties with the 16.5" barrels ought to be the cats meow for young shooters and a couple of rickety old farts as well.

41 mag · « **Reply #11 on:** January 01, 2009, 12:55:52 AM »

Hi,

I had this same issue with my daughter many years ago, and then again with her oldest son just before he turned 5. Yea I know 5 might be a bit young, but in our family we have all hunted from the time we knew what "Shhh there's a deer" meant. That said all the kids in our family have been out in stands as young as 2 or 3 and gone from there. Yea it tool patients and blowing a few hunts but the excitment they got from it and the yearing to do their part has been worth it.

Each child is an individual unto their own. Some have the upper body strength to handle a rifle with a rest of course, and some simply do not. With my grandson just fixing to hit 5 he boldly stated he wanted to shoot him self a boar hog for his birthday. Well this put the heat on as I had only a couple of rifles capable of doing this with out knocking him on his keister. So, I drug three of them out two being 243's and the last being a Ruger compact in .308. Bear in mind I had already looked over the load data as well as factory offereings in reduced loads. Well after all was said and done the .308 won out as he could at least manage to hold it up, work the action and the rigger and safety was all within easy reach for him.

We practiced many times over the summer to get him where I thought he needed to be and on his first weekend trip to the stand, he put a stinking 150# boar on it's ear with one shot. This was two weeks before his 5th birthday. THe deal was he had hold the rifle and all I was to do was help him get into position, and tell him when to shoot. He had on my peltor muffs which allowed me to whisper what I needed him to do and when to take the shot. He held the rifle while perched on my knee in order to be high enough to see over the rail of the stand.

With the reduced loads the recoil when using the 125 - 135gr bullets is minimal. THe best part is you can use the same powder to creep the loads up so that they hardly notice any increase at all between a month or so of shooting. For practice loads we use Remington 125gr JSP's and for hunting loads I switch gears and up the charge just a bit for the Barnes 130 TSX. He is shooting close to 2650 fps from the little Ruger with the hunting loads and can group them around 1" at 100yds and has done as well out further but I limit his hunting ranges to around 50 - 75. So far he has three hogs, and a yote he took cleanly at 158yds, to his credit. He just turned 6 this past Thanksgiving and keeps me working to keep him in ammo.

As for the rifle, fully loaded, topped with a 1.5x6 Burris scope it comes in at 6.5lbs. Nothing else I have comes in under 8 so he has a while to go before swapping rifles but with the .308 he should be able to just keep upping the load and using it for the rest of his days or till he decides to purchase something else on his own. I purchased the rifle for myself but seems he has taken over possession and sometimes he allows me to take it out for a spin. I have taken many feral hogs with it since I got it years ago when they first came out. I wished now I had picked up a couple of them. I have made clean one shot kills out past 400yds with it using factory Rem Core Lokts on numerious occaisions. However these were on hogs. The little thing has only had a few deer in the scope and I wasn't behind the trigger and they didn't offer the proper shot for him.

Good luck with your daughter, and what ever you decide on be sure to check the Hodgdon Site for the Youth Loads. THey work very well for the shorter ranges and very little recoil.

Feel free to look over the above mentioned shot on the hog, and anything else in the albums at the link below.

Skunk · « **Reply #12 on:** January 01, 2009, 02:07:19 PM »

Whoa!! Nice shot by the Grandson there 41 Mag. Looks like he had a good teacher.

BBF · « **Reply #13 on:** January 02, 2009, 06:17:22 AM »

I presume you used H-4895 or ??

FLNT4EVR · « **Reply #14 on:** January 02, 2009, 09:28:10 AM »

A nice NEF in 30-30 should do quite nicely.And if you hand load you can use lighter pointy boolits and extend the range a good bit.

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #15 on:** January 02, 2009, 10:23:14 AM »

I vote for 308 in the vanguard youth or the Ruger compact and Iron sights, a fixed 4 power scope if you have to put glass on it.
More loading for the 308 than all others you and the other guys mentioned. probably combined. Ammo of the same type is usually cheaper in 308. relating to more practice for the same $ spent.
One of the loadings is a reduced recoil 125 grain that has the recoil of 243.
But the 308 can be used for everything when she grows up and a second rifle will not be needed.
I say Iron sights because as the kid grows the sight picture will stay the same. With glass the eye relief will need to be changed as she grows and positioning the rifle will be akward.
The 4X scope because there is nothing to dial, move, change the objective, and bullet drop at 200yards will be in the same place. Not so with a 3-9 if she is using the duplex as hold over. 4X is powefull enough to be able to pick out a spot on a deer but not too powerful where she will have a limited field of view and have to move the rifle around to find the target. She will also be able to see the deer move.
Again I say open Iron sights that a gun smith can easily add to the rifle.
What aout a CZ 527 Carbine in 7.62X39 as a rifle? www.cz-usa.com

One Eye · « **Reply #16 on:** January 02, 2009, 11:08:23 AM »

My vote is for the .243. My daughter has killed two deer with single shots each. Both deer DRT. She loves the cartridge. I too am looking for a rifle just for her, as she has shot a borrowed rifle the last two years. I second the Vanguard Youth recommendation.
Dan

BBF · « **Reply #17 on:** January 03, 2009, 04:10:29 AM »

Forget the iron sights, if you don't want a scope on it, use a holo or red dot.

41 mag · « **Reply #18 on:** January 04, 2009, 10:39:50 AM »

BBF,

Yes I was using H-4895 and the Youth Data posted on the Hodgdon site. The original loads were with the 125gr Nosler BT, and that is the one he got his first hog with. The range was only 50yds and the bullet did fine. However he took a coyote at 155 yds and the bullet never exited. This concerned me and prompted the switch over to the Barnes. I have tested his loads out personally on some decent 200 or so pound hogs and they blew right on through and took them cleanly out to around 200yds.

The nice thing about H-4895 is that you can start a youth out using the light loads listed on their site, and then increase the load up to the standard rifle load max. This gives years of shooting with virtually the same load. The main issue I have with the little Ruger is the short 16.5" barrel. I generally use Contender data for loads in order to keep things in the proper spectrum. The last increase in the powder charge brought his loads up to 42grs, and is working right around the 2650 fps area. This is a very respectable load using the TSX and is not over powering for him even in the light rifle.

As for the sights, I have a Burris 1.5x6 Electro-Dot mounted on top and it is perfect for the ranges and areas we hunt. When it is getting dark and those black hogs come out, the heavy cross hairs coupled with the dot can make the difference in getting the shot or not. He knows that when he sets the cross hairs or that dot on something, that it is going to drop if he does his part. I prefer a low powered scope to iron sights greatly, as even with them set on the lowest power it still gives the youth a constant sight picture. They learn to settle the cross hairs on the area and "X" marks the spot. This is easier to accomplish when nervous and having to concentrate on when the animal gets into a shooting position. Where iron sights might be misaligned at the critical moment. The short clip of the hog hunt doesn't show the almost 30 minute wait we had, with him holding the rifle waiting for that thing to settle down and be still. It had already been in a scrape with a bigger hog just prior to coming out in front of us and was still pretty amped up and nervous.

Scopes of lower power come in a variety of models along with eye reliefs. I had purchased him a Weaver which had an extended eye relief, however with the short rifle he is using it was not needed. I have it mounted on the Sako Hunter in .243 I originally got for him to use. However it is still a bit long in the barrel for him to reliably hold up while in a hunting situation. Most times we try to use a stand with a rail but we also simply set out under trees or on the edges of wood rows and he has to use what ever might be available. Not that I don't have bi-pods or shooting sticks, but he is learning and I want him to learn to be adaptable. At times I mount the long set of Harris or Stoney Point pods, but they are a hassle to get into position if we have to turn around or change positions to get a better shot.

He is only 6 right now but he is learning all I can teach him to become a better shot and hunter. It is great to watch him head out with his toy guns and set up make shift blinds in the back yard of our country place.

Ron/Pa. · « **Reply #19 on:** January 04, 2009, 12:06:50 PM »

On the 7mm-08 in the Stevens, I watched a youngster shoot one at our local range. The recoil was pretty wicked. After the 3-4th shot, he was done! The Dad shot a couple out of it and He was surprised at the stout recoil.

BBF · « **Reply #20 on:** January 04, 2009, 12:58:32 PM »

Mag 41:
You and I are not only reading the same book but are on the same page.

41 mag · « **Reply #21 on:** January 04, 2009, 01:50:50 PM »

Quote from: BBF on January 04, 2009, 12:58:32 PM

Mag 41:
You and I are not only reading the same book but are on the same page.

I hear ya. The problem I got however is the 6 yr old took over my favorite stalking rifle. It has worked so well for him, when his younger two brothers get a couple more years on them, I am sure we will be right back to square one with them. He will swap up to the Sako, or possibly whatever else he might fanagle paw paw out of, but I am afraid my little stalker is about gone forever.

Guess it's a good thing I am good with a bow and a handgun, or I might be outta something to hunt with soon. LOL

BBF · « **Reply #22 on:** January 05, 2009, 06:58:04 AM »

I can't think of a better excuse for getting another rifle, especially if you need to convince the "Significant Other"

kevinsmith5 · « **Reply #23 on:** January 08, 2009, 04:02:20 PM »

I second the H&R 30-30 Handi Rifle. Hornady Leverevolution 170 gr's shoot out to 250 yards, the heavier bullet makes exact shot placement less vital (often an issue with new hunters) than with the light .243 bullets. And a single shot always seems to make a person think a little harder and pick their shot a bit more carefully.

Mt_Sourdough · « **Reply #24 on:** January 11, 2009, 05:48:36 PM »

In these parts, any trip into the mountains can bring you chances at elk as well as deer. Here in Montana, a first time hunter under age 16 gets a free super tag or whatever they call it, but it comes with a free deer tag and elk tag. So in Montana, the kids learn to deal with recoil right off the bat. Most hunters I know made quick progression from 22s to shooting grandpa's 30-06. You know, the ones with no recoil absorbing pads. Personally, my first hunting rifle was my family's ol'30-30. I was told to keep any shots on elk under 100 yards, preferably not much more than 50 yards. So I was happy any time I was allowed to carry my grandpappy's 30-06 which extended range for elk out to about 250 yards or so. Now I am introducing two young men to the world of hunting and they will be shooting my 270. The oldest one (13) is sounding off like he is even feeling brave enough to shoot my 444. That is music to my ears, because my dream for them is to see them looking wide eyed down at their first kill and it being a nice elk. Their mom shot my 270 at the range last year with great success. The only other time she fired a hunting rifle, was with her ex-husbands 30-06. She claims that she took 3 shots at a target that was 50 yards away. She never hit the target once and the recoil convinced her that she never wanted to shoot that rifle again. Well, she became brave and decided to give my 270 a try at the Deep Creek Range. After some coaching, she took three shots at the target set at 100 yards. No lie, she got about a 3/4 inch group her first try. During herfirst shot, I watched her and the rifle squirm and shake a lot until right before she pulled the trigger. As instructed, she exhaled one more time, steadied and bang. With binos in hand I could easily see a well placed hole about a half inch below the bullseye. The next two shots were steady and hit into a tight group around her first. Later that night, her kids were showing the paper target to their friends and bragging how their mom's shots were better than mine. Her kids are now eager to shoot that 270 and they will soon. The 270 is a Howa 1500 with a hogue overmolded stock and a nice soft recoil pad. The rifle weighs a little under 9 pounds with the scope. The hogue overmolded stock and recoil pad make the rifle's bite much less than its bark. With some hearing protection and a carhart coat, any kid would be able to shoot this rifle all day long and have the firepower needed to take elk.

Doesniper · « **Reply #25 on:** January 16, 2009, 06:13:03 AM »

I started my boys out with a .243. I loaded them with a mildly loaded 55g. Nosler BT. to practice with. A week or so before season I would sight the rifle in with a 100g hunting buttet and not tell them. They have never known the difference. So far 4 shots = 4 deer.

JerryKo · « **Reply #26 on:** January 16, 2009, 07:24:21 AM »

I started my oldest now 7 on Handi rifle with very light 270 hand loads. I always liked the compacts too. To make a long story short I found a deal on a 300wsm frontier I couldn't pass up. With handloading you can always power down. I used a riflemen scope in the standard position and 22/30 cal sabots for target practice. Worked up a load with h4895 and 150gr sst, water jug tested for expansion and he had a successful deer hunt this year. one well placed shot and deer went less than 25yds. In hind sight I should have used the 165 since it opens up more at lower velocity.

Let me tell you, those Frontiers and compacts will shoot. In fact I sold some other rifles I planned on using for my youngest now 4, and bought another frontier in 7-08 for him when he is ready. I started with a scout mount for now to break in barrel and find a load, but it is shooting very well also.

We hunt from sturdy blinds so a good rest is easy to come by. When a foot, I have the higher caldwell bipods he uses to sit behind.

Target practice teaches and re-enforces handling and safety! Make sure they are up to the shot and set limits and goals before they hunt. My son was good to about 100 yds, but I set my limit to 75 and under to allow for the excitiment factor. The deer was between 60-65yds. He was prepared from practice, and ONLY because of this was successful. Had he had to fumble with the rifle for position the opportunity would have passed. He showed more coolness than me.

Good luck, and its great you are taking the kids to hunt!

Jerry

BBF · « **Reply #27 on:** January 16, 2009, 04:00:11 PM »

In hind sight I should have used the 165 since it opens up more at lower velocity.

Jerry:
I don't follow your reasoning. Why would a 165 gr bullet at lower velocities open up more then a 150 gr bullet at higher V's. presuming it is the same type of bullet.??

mogwai · « **Reply #28 on:** January 16, 2009, 05:43:26 PM »

Quote from: Buano on December 12, 2008, 05:39:28 PM

I'm searching for a good used deer rifle for my 10-year-old daughter. What's the consensus between the .243, .257 Roberts & 7mm-08??? (Her shots will be under 250 yards.)

I know that most of the posts have responded with cartridge choices. I want to chime in about range for a beginner. They should generally be limited to shots under 100 yds. Once they have shot a few animals, we can stretch their shooting range.
I've watched many beginners and they need to be close....

JerryKo · « **Reply #29 on:** January 17, 2009, 02:16:34 AM »

Quote from: RPzB on January 16, 2009, 04:00:11 PM

In hind sight I should have used the 165 since it opens up more at lower velocity.

Jerry:
I don't follow your reasoning. Why would a 165 gr bullet at lower velocities open up more then a 150 gr bullet at higher V's. presuming it is the same type of bullet.??

I guess because of their weight they are made to expand at lower velocities than the lighter. I made this hindsight revelation according to the Hornady description of their 308 bulletsin volume #2 of their "Handbook of cartridge reloading" The 155 amax, and 165 ssts have a rec. muzzle vel as low as 2200fps were as the 150's are rec at 2700 and faster. My expansion test showed almost 1/2 inch of expansion but penetrated 6 1gal water jugs at 50 yds. So had plenty of pen. but not as much expansion as I "assume " I would have had with the 165. And would have increased the felt recoil by onlya touch.

I asked him after the shot if the gun kicked, and he said "I didn't even feel it". Thats the norm when taking shots at game within reasonable recoil limits.

Jerry