Author Topic: encore 209x50 sighting-in problem (Read 2312 times)

etexhunter · « **on:** August 17, 2003, 10:46:41 AM »

Just shot my new encore w/leupold base & rings. shooting good patterns w/110 gr of 777 & barnes bullets , but I've taken all the elevation out of nikon monarch and still need 2-3 inches just to get to bull's eye. Will I need to use shims and if so, where? under the base or under the the scope...

Smiley · « **Reply #1 on:** August 17, 2003, 11:49:52 AM »

Are you shooting hi? And have adjusted all the way down and still hi? If so shim up the rear. That would bring crosshair back up towards center. You don't have those small paper shims under your scope in the saddles do you? <

hyltoto · « **Reply #2 on:** August 17, 2003, 11:59:43 AM »

There does not seem to be adjustment in a high power scope to overcome the inaccuracies in the Encore mounting system

. These inaccuracies are a mixture of the poorly designed mounting surface

and the high ballistic arc of the heavy muzzleloader projectile.

The most successful countermeasures were:

1. Go to a high quality fixed 4 power scope (will have about 20 more inches of adjustment)

2. Use the Burris rings with the polymer inserts and buy the shim packs to mechanically force the adjusment. This is the same as the the paper shims described above, but will not bend the scope tube. I've had your problem with three Encores, all have needed the total .20 shim pack from Burris.

etexhunter · « **Reply #3 on:** August 17, 2003, 12:17:17 PM »

shooting too low, can't get enough elevation. Am not using any shims currently. Hyltoto, don't like the idea of buying new burris rings, :cry: but will certainly do so if that's my only option other than putting on new 4 x scope. sure like the variables. :grin: one other thing, the bullets sure are hard to start into this rifle compared to my old knight mk85. any sugg's...

Thanx

hyltoto · « **Reply #4 on:** August 17, 2003, 01:45:30 PM »

I did a big design of experiments for a friend of mine to develop a 200 yard elk load.

The keys were:

Powerbelts, you can feel when they are snug on the powder and load really nice!

Do not use pellets! loose powder a 7inch group versus 2 inch, many flyers with pellets.

Buy the starting tool to align whichever bullet you use.

slatecaller · « **Reply #5 on:** August 17, 2003, 02:43:42 PM »

I too am having the same problem with my 25-06 Encore barrel with Burris DD signature rings. I am going to buy the ring inserts to solve my problem. You need to shim the rear of the base(the breech end).

PJ · « **Reply #6 on:** August 17, 2003, 04:57:21 PM »

Just buy a soda or .....beer is better drink it ,then cut a shim to fit under your scope in the bottom front ring.If one "HILLBILLY SHIM"does not work cut another....*Note it works better if you don't use the same can of beer buy another one and drink it then repeat step one.

P.S. It really work's

PJ · « **Reply #7 on:** August 17, 2003, 05:01:21 PM »

Oh, I forgot to say don't buy new rings / base or shims.Save your money and buy beer and make money....You could make your own shims and sale them to the guy's on here

:-D

Underclocked · « **Reply #8 on:** August 17, 2003, 06:13:28 PM »

Just don't drink too many shims!

hyltoto · « **Reply #9 on:** August 17, 2003, 07:44:27 PM »

Jack up the rear .20 and put the other .2 on top of the front to prevent a bind. I guess some people find it funny that after man drops about 800 bucks on shootin' iron and scope it can't get it to hit a target at 100 yards. Oh yeah, don't forget you have to put in a new pivot pin, trigger springs and modify the fore-end if you want good groups. Oh and also you have to keep the bore dirty because the point of impact will shift if you clean. And forget getting groups with a harris bi-pod. TC really needs to get its head outta its a**.

PS: if after you do all of this and it still want group, send the barrel back to the factory so you can get the latest song and dance about quality problems that got out of the factory.

etexhunter · « **Reply #10 on:** August 18, 2003, 02:47:10 AM »

Guys, if I can't get enough elevation should't I raise the front of the scope, and not the rear. I do understand that if I shim too much on one end that the opposite end needs to shimmed a little also because of the angle. but the gun is shooting too low and all the "up"adjustment has been maxed out.
I certainly like the idea of the less expensive "brew shims" and the fact that I keep those in stock and won't have to order :lol: . Hyltoto mentioned something earlier about possibly bending the tube using this method, have some of you had good luck using the alum. strips without damaging your scope...

? Thanx for all opinions.

hyltoto · « **Reply #11 on:** August 18, 2003, 08:32:14 AM »

It is counter intuitive, but it is like adjusting a front site. If you move the rear of the scope up, the cross-hair is now lookiking lower on the target. When you bring the cross hair back up onto the tatget, the bullet strike is gonna come up with it. It is a crying shame a gun this expensive has to be jury rigged like this. Be careful not to bend the scope tube, they are aluminum in this day and age. That is why I recommend the Burrris rings.

PJ · « **Reply #12 on:** August 18, 2003, 08:43:24 PM »

Quote from: hyltoto

Jack up the rear .20 and put the other .2 on top of the front to prevent a bind. I guess some people find it funny that after man drops about 800 bucks on shootin' iron and scope it can't get it to hit a target at 100 yards. Oh yeah, don't forget you have to put in a new pivot pin, trigger springs and modify the fore-end if you want good groups. Oh and also you have to keep the bore dirty because the point of impact will shift if you clean. And forget getting groups with a harris bi-pod. TC really needs to get its head outta its a**.

PS: if after you do all of this and it still want group, send the barrel back to the factory so you can get the latest song and dance about quality problems that got out of the factory.

IF YOU DON'T LIKE T/C'S THEN DON'T POST ON HERE :twisted: JACK ***

P.S. I guess my 6mmBR shoots bad just look at the three shot group....I couldn't even hit center!! Must be the off-center chamber that Mr. Bellm talks about

Damm those factory barrel's

I know your one to spend 400+ bucks on a custom barrel and then can't hit crap :-D

hyltoto · « **Reply #13 on:** August 19, 2003, 04:19:17 AM »

It seems the conversation is about stock rifles not your custom pistol. This is the NINTH time I've had to help people with this problem, why won't T/C engineer the problem away?. By the way none of this seems to happen with my Contenders, just the sucky Encores. T/C is getting a real bad name around my neck of the woods with the Encore.

Tracker · « **Reply #14 on:** August 19, 2003, 08:05:33 AM »

Brownells sells a nice shim kit that is worth keeping around. They have several different thicknesses to make it easy. Place the desired one under the rear mount and you should be good to go. It does seem to be a pain to have to shim but I have just mounted two win MDL 70's in the 300 WSM and both needed shims to get it in the bull. Some scopes do have more adjustment but the fixed Vice varible does not make a difference. In the leupold the Varx III has more adjuctments built in than the Varix II. Its all in the system used by the manufacturer.

hyltoto · « **Reply #15 on:** August 19, 2003, 01:00:11 PM »

The first one of the Encore's I was asked to work on, along with 3 otheers since needec .20 shim if you waanted an optically centerd scope. To put an aluminum tube in 1/5 inch bind is not a great idea because it will eventually deform. We are not talking about .05 or .025 but almost a quarter of an inch. The guy sent back 2 guns to T/C because of poor accuracy and the ability to get on target. He is avery influental and wealthy person around here. He had a 3.5 x 10 Vari-X 3, with QR base and rings. Totally out of elevation and only 6 clicks of windage left.

He was going Elk hunting so he required the 150 grain load.

The solution was two fold:

1. By using shims I determined that the scope had to be moved, but with that much shim it was ugly and not robust. A friend of mine who is a professional tactical shooter clued me in on the Burris signature rings. They use them on .308 so the bottom of there scope elevation adjustment is on at 300 meters. This gives them enough elevation adjustment for 1200 meters, plus the scope is never in a bind.

2. The accuracy problem was solved by using loose powder not pellets, no flyers! Average 5 shot group size dropped from 9 inches to 2.75 inches.

I personally just use a 4X fixed scope on my Encore muzzleloader, 130 grains pyro and 240 grain powerbelt.

PJ · « **Reply #16 on:** August 19, 2003, 05:15:53 PM »

Guy's read his post again.....He only needs 2-3" to get to bull.A beer can shim is about three thousands that = 3" at 100yards.A .20 shim is stupid thats 20" at 100 yards!!!!No wounder your friends scope looked like crap.

hyltoto · « **Reply #17 on:** August 19, 2003, 06:56:36 PM »

I needed .20 to have an optically centered scope. Under high recoil it is much more robust than running on the outside edge of the adjustment range. So I had to make up 22 inches back to center the reticle (the Leupold has 44 inches total adjustment) plus in my case 6 inches to get up on the bull. The plastic shims are in increments of .05". To make up for the windage the thickest part of the shim was about at 5 o'clock on the rear ring. I rotated the shim while veiwing my bore sighter thru the scope. The Burris shim set is a technological marvel.
http://www.burrisoptics.com/rings.html

highcaliber · « **Reply #18 on:** August 20, 2003, 12:08:25 PM »

I contacted TC about my 209x50 shooting low, they advised to change to a high mount ring, which I did, but have not shot it yet. I'm going to see if that works before I shim the base. They also recomended that I back my load of 110 grs of T7 to a 100, don't understand that because Hodgen says that 130 gr's of T7 is equavalent to 150 of pyro. Anyway... I'm waiting on bullets that I ordered from Precision bullets, their "dead center" in a 340 gr. supposed be very accurate and lethal on the elk that I'm going to shoot in Oct

New Mex. (if anyone's interested check them out,pbbullets.com.
Anyone shot these bullets?

Bullseye · « **Reply #19 on:** August 20, 2003, 03:12:28 PM »

Hodgen also says to never shoot more than 2 pellets (777 or Pyrodex) in a gun no matter what the gun manufacturer says, figure that one out.

Bullseye · « **Reply #20 on:** August 20, 2003, 05:45:43 PM »

Help me out here guys. If my memory is correct he said it was shooting low. T/C said to use higher rings. That should make the problem worse I would think, am I correct. That lowers the muzzle more from the crosshairs.

hyltoto · « **Reply #21 on:** August 21, 2003, 03:54:12 AM »

Get the Burris and really fix the problem, they make them for almost any base.

slatecaller · « **Reply #22 on:** August 21, 2003, 02:48:28 PM »

A set of higher rings would make it worse. You need to move the scope closer to the barrel not farther away from it. If you get the Burris signature rings make sure you order the offset inserts with the rings because they are sold separately.

Underclocked · « **Reply #23 on:** August 21, 2003, 02:56:30 PM »

Hodgdon also says http://www.hodgdon.com/data/tripleseven/50cal-2f.php#top NEVER EXCEED THE LOADS LISTED HERE!

T/C is being very responsible as they have not as yet done sufficient testing in their rifles to set limits on T7 beyond the Hodgdon tables. I think when one compares that to the off-hand way some other manufacturer's have set arbitrary load limits well above Hodgdon's recommendations you'll see that T/C is setting a high standard.

pete50 · « **Reply #24 on:** November 07, 2003, 05:03:39 AM »

Gentlemen,
I had this same problem with my encore 209x50. The gun shot 12 inches low at 25 yards using various bases, rings, and two different scopes (Redfield, Leupold VXII, both 3x9x40). I sent my barrel back to T/C twice without any fixes/changes. T/C says the barrel is within specs after they "relasered" it. I asked for replacement barrel and was denied because there was nothing wrong with my barrel according to them. I am not talking about a cheapy scope without enough adjustment. I think the buying frenzy on T/C encores has caused a lot of quality control issues. I have owned guns since old enough to shoot and this is the only firearm I have ever sent back to a factory. Think about it. I have been messing with this thing for 2 years to get it to shoot into the target center. I like T/C products, I feel the encore is a quality product, very well made. I just think that I am doing their quality control work. I am disappointed. My friends shake their heads whenever I take it into the woods. It's kinda sad. I read all the posts with people bragging about how great their encore shoots. It sucks to be me. So I posted my pain on here for help and I took the advice of the people of the forum and bought the burris signature DD base and rings. Wow!!! I had to use the .20 plastic insert to get it OK. Now I am shooting much better and getting groups. Things are looking up. Hopefully everything will be fine from here on out. :?

hyltoto · « **Reply #25 on:** November 11, 2003, 09:50:20 AM »

If you follow the thread you will see I was basically blasted for bringing this up. :? If you bought a car that had problems like this would you ever buy another? I sent a complete report to TC a couple of years back but never heard from them.

PS for finest accuracy, stay away from pellets...

Paladin · « **Reply #26 on:** November 11, 2003, 04:31:28 PM »

the best way to fix it would be to take the base to a machine shop and have a 20* taper put on it from the back to the front. no bent scope, no shims to move