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Author Topic: Tom Horn.  (Read 9666 times)

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Offline kynardsj

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Re: Tom Horn.
« Reply #30 on: August 11, 2012, 06:50:19 AM »
I remember in the movie McQueen ( Horn ) mentioned a 45-60 had a trajectory like a rainbow. Told the sheriff that if he had done the shooting it would have been the dirtyest thing he'd ever done and best shot he had ever made. Don't know how much of the movie was based on actual events. I went to see it when it first came to the theatres back in the late 70's I think.
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Offline Ranch13

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Re: Tom Horn.
« Reply #31 on: August 11, 2012, 08:17:24 AM »
For those that are really interested in the Tom Horn saga, Chip Carlson's books Tom Horn Killing Men is my specialty, and Blood on the Moon, are the definitive word on Horn.
Horn had a loose mouth and had been involved in too much stuff that would have embarrassed to many big name folks, so the StockGrowers let him swing for something he did not do.
 
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Offline Wyo. Coyote Hunter

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Re: Tom Horn.
« Reply #32 on: August 11, 2012, 08:23:22 AM »
That is correct for the movie..but you must remember Horn was a professional..He used the  best equipment he could get his hands on at the time..He also carried 10x binos to identify the  target...that line is suppost to have gotten Horn hung..the longest shot I ever made the dirtest trick I ever done...but from what I have read the kid was shot from relatively close range I believe less than 50 yards he had his father's coat on..unlike McQueen in the movie, Horn carried a handgun..I believe he killed at least one person in Wy. with it..but the rifle was his chosen weapon..somewhere I have a photo of his .30-30 in one of my books..folks who have seen it say the bore is in bad shape due to the ammo of the time...
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Offline Wyo. Coyote Hunter

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Re: Tom Horn.
« Reply #33 on: August 11, 2012, 08:31:47 AM »
 ;) Ranch, I have read both of those books plus several others..since you are from that country, the story of the field glassess came from a relative of the owners of the Iron Mt. Ranch where Horn worked or headquartered...I heard this man talking at a trap shoot in Cheyenne..he mentioned the Iron Mt. Ranch..when there was a break and folks walked on, I ask him about Horn and the ranch...he was quiet for a few moments, like he was thinking over if he wanted to talk..then he said, I' ll tell you this, Horn was not a thug, he was a professional and carried 10 x glasses..he knew who or what he was shooting at...then other people pressed into the area, and no more was said..I could tell he didn't want to visit with others around...I would have loved to have asked a few more questions, but I didn't get a chance, and shortly afterwards I quit shooting ATA trap...and have never seen him since...he may be gone now..That was close 20 years ago..
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Offline muznut 54

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Re: Tom Horn.
« Reply #34 on: August 11, 2012, 10:19:39 AM »
Cool story, I remember the movie and would like to know the truth? Maybe some forensic experts can do some voodoo magic and figure this out?
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Offline kynardsj

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Re: Tom Horn.
« Reply #35 on: August 11, 2012, 10:33:04 AM »
I didn't realize this thread was this old until I went back to the beginning of it. Still a good read and got me thinking I want to see the movie again. Went online and bought it.
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Offline bilmac

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Re: Tom Horn.
« Reply #36 on: August 11, 2012, 10:35:01 AM »
The Johnson County wars was about the same thing, big money cattlemen trying to keep settlers out.
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Offline Wyo. Coyote Hunter

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Re: Tom Horn.
« Reply #37 on: August 11, 2012, 12:36:33 PM »
 :) The Johnson Co. wars were pretty complicated..the big rancher /small was certainly part of it...then there was the issue of cattle theft...but some sources say, Horn was part of the invaders of Johnson Co...
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Offline Ranch13

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Re: Tom Horn.
« Reply #38 on: August 11, 2012, 03:05:50 PM »
WCH there's still alot of feelings on both sides of the Horn issue up and down the Laramie Range. Horn did the job he was hired to do, and the Stockgrowers got scared of him..
The Johnson County war was a typical absentee landowner deal, the big money folks from town didn't have a clue what they were getting into, and were having a hard time figuring out what had happened to them after the 83 blizzard. The StockGrowers range boss was probably the one doing the most cattle rustling and laying the blame on folks he was jealous of,or knew what he was up to. Seems pretty weird that a fella could after he and the rest got let out of confinement went to Nebraska and bought a ranch on tophand wages......
Also some rumors that Cattle Kate was pregnant with one of the bigboys child.....
And that Johnson County war has not quited down,(altho there's not much shooting now) the local folks still know who and what happened to them....
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Offline Wyo. Coyote Hunter

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Re: Tom Horn.
« Reply #39 on: August 11, 2012, 03:26:11 PM »
 ;) 13, That is news to me about the foreman buying ranch in Neb...but the Johnson Co. war was not something I know a great deal about...I am sure the Horn issue still has feelings to it in the Laramie Range area..I believe the Nickells family relocated, at least some, in the Encampment area...Never heard Cattle Kate was pregnant ...history is more interesting than fiction..sometime I would like to hear what you have to say about his stuff....
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Offline bilmac

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Re: Tom Horn.
« Reply #40 on: August 11, 2012, 03:48:17 PM »
If you can find a copy read "Banditti of the Plains", about the Johnson Co Wars. I think the books are rare because it was banned in Wyoming for awhile.
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Offline Ranch13

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Re: Tom Horn.
« Reply #41 on: August 11, 2012, 04:21:07 PM »
I think the biggest mistake we make is trying to make Horn into some sort of hero. From what I've heard from folks that sort of knew him he probably is what we'ld today call an unbonded child, suffering from some pretty severe ptsd. I believe if he liked you  that's the way it was, but if he was ambivilant or disliked you , just his presence would probably make your skin crawl and your hair tingle.. His own big mouth got him convicted, when he shot down Otto Plaga's testimony placing Horn to far away from the Nickle place to have shot Willie that morning. He didn't particularly like or respect  Plaga and in the end got him hung for something either one of the neighborkids, or the sheep herder Kels had fired did. The account of his comeupins in Baggs after his cleaning out Browns Hole is pretty interesting, dang near got his head cut off in a knife fight in the bar in Baggs.
 There's a number of good books about the Johnson Co war. There are things tho that you almost need to be in or had some hard experience in the cow business, large ranches and absentee owners to fully grasp what was really going on.
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Offline lee1954

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Re: Tom Horn.
« Reply #42 on: August 11, 2012, 08:13:05 PM »
I think the 30-30 has a good group of folk in it.. You may be right. For now  I'm in the Tom Horn had a .45 cal thinking..And don't clam any inside info.
So you may be correct...
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Offline lee1954

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Re: Tom Horn.
« Reply #43 on: August 11, 2012, 09:50:40 PM »
My understanding is the law was bought and paid for in the time frame of the Johnson Co. war.
All settlers were classified "cattle wrestlers"..
Here is a story I hear not to long after I moved here..
 
 In the beginning of the Johnson Co. war.... South of Upton a honest family was killed, and the killers  went to the bank in Newcastle WY and took out all the dead family's money,also took all the livestock.   Never heard Tom Horns name in the story thought...
 
I  don't think Tom Horn worked the Black Hills parts of WY.
  And, I don't believe there was a shortage of bad people,, Tom Horn was more solo.....Others were gold robbers / cattle wrestlers gangs.  Not friends of the cattle barons that Tom Horn worked for..
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Offline Dee

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Re: Tom Horn.
« Reply #44 on: August 12, 2012, 02:37:26 AM »
Cattlemen in this time period were more or less "free range" ranchers. i.e. No fences to restrict the cattle from roaming and finding good grass on their own, and water also for that matter.
Knowing this, the farmer on the other hand needed to be able to keep cattle out of their crops, as a few cattle, in a few hours, could destroy an entire years income.
Did a a farmer occasionally "RUSTLE" rather than "wrestle" ;D , a cow or two. Most likely, but many a "rustler" made his living exclusively on stealing cattle, and sometimes sold them to hapless farmers whom did know any better.

By the way, on a side note. Tom Horn (Steve McQueen) did carry a 45-60 in the movie "Tom Horn", but in reality the REAL Tom Horn carried a 3030 Winchester "rifle". Horn has been glamorized by Hollyweird, and legend for many years now, and this persona is that he was "just a great guy", that got a bad deal.
Make no mistake, Tom Horn was a "paid killer" whom happened to have done some good occasionally, and if he were alive to day, would come after you if the money was right.
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Offline Ranch13

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Re: Tom Horn.
« Reply #45 on: August 12, 2012, 04:07:35 AM »
WCH, is there any mention of Kels in the Grand Encampment museum? Also I can't remember at the moment, but Horn killed a horse thief somewhere around Pass Creek, and I can't recall the name. Do you have any info on that one?
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Offline bilmac

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Re: Tom Horn.
« Reply #46 on: August 12, 2012, 05:09:22 AM »
It's been said before, whether Horn killed the settler kid or not, he was without a doubt a paid murderer who deserved what he got.
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Offline Ranch13

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Re: Tom Horn.
« Reply #47 on: August 12, 2012, 06:18:02 AM »
Bilmac that is absolute true fact.
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Offline Wyo. Coyote Hunter

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Re: Tom Horn.
« Reply #48 on: August 12, 2012, 06:37:52 AM »
 ;) 13, Haven't been to Encampment museum for a while, and don't remember  if the Nickell family is mentioned there...and I never heard the Pass Creek story..will look into that ..unfortunately, many of the old timers who might know something are gone or going fast..
From everything available, you are right about Horn being unbonded.. Carlson talked about his religion and childhood in some of the presentations he gave in this area..it was pretty bad from the sound of things..without a doubt he was up to some pretty bad stuff here in Wy...but one of Carlson's points about Horn was his Az. years were fairly admireable...Carlson's indicated in his presentation that after Horn's years of playing cat and mouse with the Indians in Az. life became too tame...He felt Horn could not cope with the changes he saw in the world around him...and when we look at the early 1900's there were many, so that was the reason he didn't talk before he was hung.. Carlson seemed to feel the game with the "rustlers" was at best a poor fill in for the years he spent hunting Indians in Az...An interesting person no doubt, but not a good person...
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Offline Ranch13

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Re: Tom Horn.
« Reply #49 on: August 12, 2012, 07:47:20 AM »
WCH if I remember correctly Kels got cut up in a knife fight in Encampment, he was a ruffian sorta fella his entire life.
Haven't been to the museum in quite awhile either. Used to stop at least once a year going or coming from Hogg Park fishing or over the other side of Battle elk hunting. Might be headed up to Hogg in a week or two, may have to stop and take the museum in again, it's surely one of the better in the state.
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Offline bilmac

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Re: Tom Horn.
« Reply #50 on: August 12, 2012, 04:11:27 PM »
I think Horn always expected to be rescued all the time he was sitting in jail up until the time the trap door sprung [Didn't they hang him with some sort of automatic release, so nobody was responsible?]  If he had talked, there would have been no hope that his former employers would bust him out.
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Offline Ranch13

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Re: Tom Horn.
« Reply #51 on: August 12, 2012, 06:04:32 PM »
Julian gallows I think is what it was called. The condemned stepped onto the trap, that started a bucket of water to flowing to another vessel that would release the trap. It took something like 3 minutes to drop Horn.
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Offline shaner

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Re: Tom Horn.
« Reply #52 on: August 22, 2012, 03:01:08 AM »
enjoyed all the post here, tom has intreged  me for many many years ,  iam continually tryin to  find more on this guy, any chance i have, weather he did  it or not will in my mind never be  settled, because the only one that knew  was himself. which really makes a guy upset! so we can just keep enjoying the tales of all these great men that made this country what it is today . its a shame  that there are very very fell men these days,  that have even 1/4th the balls thesse old west legends  had !! agreed/??
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