The death of the US auto industry

[Hairtrigger]

There WAS a time and place for unions.
That time and place is gone.
Now unions stand for not working but still getting benefits.
Call it what you want, point fingers where you want.... end of the day compitition is tough.

[Questor]

I disagree. There still is a place for unions here in the U.S., but some of the unions are really bad for everyone involved (except the union administration). Some are a very good thing, but the UAW is not. I'm not sure if the good ones are the minority or the majority.

[SHOOTALL]

no not kidding remember the union has MANAGEMENT also and they to have made Bad decisions .
I think all involved caused the problem from the suppliers to the owners to the uaw to the dealerships . when you put out junk what can you expect ?

[Lazermule]

yeah, blame anther management decision on the union members.  you guys are kidding, right?
   if you are this easily fooled, i dont know what else to say.  it says right in that article that they started that as a way for the workers to accept robots.  you think the union came up with that idea?  bull.  that is a pure management play.  union was against robots replacing workers.  management say "we will pay you, you wont lose work"  and that is the member's fault?   there isnt one person here that wouldnt take that deal.   it isnt the members fault that management has made HORRIBLE decisions.  and then they try to paint the line workers, who didnt want to lose work to machines, as the guilty parties.  the only thing they are guilty of is trying to keep their job.  those evil &&%$#!!!
  this sure is enlightening.

Don't want to loose your job to a robot?  Go to school and learn something they can't teach a robot.  Too many people say they can't or couldn't go to school because they can't or couldn't afford it.  Got a case in point story.  I have a good friend that worked as skilled labor right out of High School and here 15 years later is out looking for a job and can't find one that pays well without a degree.  He was one who "couldn't afford" to go to college like many others, but you should have seen that bright new shiny 4x4 pickup he bought just shortly after graduation that cost him about $25K.  Me?  I drove a $100 junker that I kept alive for 4 years to drive while I was going to college.  In the end, I spent less on my 4 year degree than he did on his first pickup.  Not bragging at all here, just trying to point out something that often gets overlooked.  You DO have choices in life, don't choose the easiest ones, choose the BEST ones.

LAZER

[Graybeard]

I claim no particular expert status and darn little recent knowledge regarding unions but over the span of my working career had a lot of dealings with them both as a member and as a manager having to deal with them. Prior to that even I had experience with them indirectly as a child when my dad was a union member and on the negotiation team at the soil pipe shop he worked at.

I vividly recall one strike dad's union went on for better wages. They were out of work for almost six months with no paycheck coming in. Eventually they settled the dispute and ended up with a nickel an hour raise. None of them lived long enough for that nickel an hour to replace the wages they lost.

I've been screwed over by unions I as a member of and had them try to screw me over as a manager dealing with them.

I personally am of the opinion that there was but no longer is a place in America for unions. Say what you want and perhaps you'll be right in particular situations you are dealing with but from my viewpoint from long years of dealing with many different unions I feel their time has come and gone and that today they do far more harm than good. I mean harm to the workers as well as the companies and to the economy as a whole.

I won't say that there aren't some limited working situations still where they might be helpful but by and large I think they are very hurtful. The conditions that existed that brought them to be no longer exist in this country and hasn't for a long long time. I am of the opinion that both unions and company management share the blame for the mess this country is in today. I guess I shouldn't leave out Joe Public either as for sure as a nation of consumers we are all to blame to some extent or at least most are for the spending on credit habits so many have developed. Yup finger pointed directly at me.

[Sourdough]

Remember when airfares used to be cheap, and the airlines fed you well during all flights.  Back then they were not paying retirement for pilots and other employees that were no longer productive.

The Americian automobile manufacturers were in the same position back then (50s, 60s 70s.)  as well.  Yes they were paying for past employees that had retired, but it was a very small number back then.  Also people did not live that long at that time.  Most usually died right after they quite work.

Today I have heard all kinds of figures that are claimed to be put on each car to pay for all their current retirees.  All those figures have been a substantial portion of the cars cost. 

As the population ages, let's face it, the cost of all those retirements are borne by everyone.  But in some cases the cost has gotten out of control, and is killing the industry. 

The reasons for the auto industries problems are many.  First they need to get spending under control, and that is currently impossiable.  CEOs, digging for everything they can get, Unions unwilling to compromise, and shoddy products engineered to fail at set peramitors.  It's no wonder the foreign automobile companies are pulling ahead.

I drive a Suzuki, and a Mitsubishi, my wife drives a Kia Sportage (winter), and a Mazda RX-8 (summer), our vehicles have only been in the shop for scheduled maintenance in the last five years.  Our son drives a Chevy truck.  Last night he was counting all the times it has been in the shop for repair in the last three years that he has had it, and all the money it has cost him on non covered items.  His truck is currently in the shop again, the power steering hoses burst again.  This is an every six month exercise, power steering hoses and the seals for the power steering pump.  While the seals and labor for the pump is covered, the hoses and labor to replace them is not.  His Transfer case is on the fritz again, forth time.  When he gets it back this time he is getting rid of it, getting a Toyota.  Actually he wants my Mitsubishi Eclipse, and I will get a Toyota or Honda truck.

PS as MYRONMAN said:  Get a job that can't be done by robots.  Suggestion:  Go to school and learn how to control the robots.

That brings up another subject.  Why are Americians so against learning new technology at work.  I know many old Plumbers and Pipefitters that retired rather than learn how to install and work with the new plastic piping.

[jimster]

I think the original post was "death of the US auto industry"...

It won't die because your driving...any more than the airlines died because they went bankrupt.  People are still flying. 
Could a certain brand of car die...ya, if they don't scale back, stop making cars before they sell them, and keep paying employees more than unskilled labor is worth (and paying them to not work at all)...and along with all that, some government regulations to sap more profits....yes, some brands could die.  It's more likely GM will do all the things they have to do (Union included) or there will be ZERO jobs for just them.  So what...other car manufacturers will fill the hole easily.   Your going to have a whole bunch of people on the street bailout money or not, either way....they WILL do the same thing to survive. 
And giving them money won't help at all or do anything...unless they sell cars and cut back,  so might as well just let them file bankruptcy cause all the things they will be forced to do to GET the money...are the SAME things they will do after they file bankruptcy.  Congress is not as smart as we are, so look for this to be drug out and your money peed away a few times...then they will file chapter 11 anyways.  Far as the union goes...they will fall into line or go away with GM....simple as that. 

Maybe our U.S cars died a long time ago....I noticed the engine sits sideways and I had to buy a bunch of metric tools to work on some of these US cars.
Darn voltage regulator on a Ford I had were bad brand new,  and you had to test them at the auto parts place before you took one home...made in Mexico.

Most of the money flowing out of Congress is a knee jerk reaction to appease the people...and people like Polosi are too stupid to even be in Congress, with her telling people nobody would buy a car from a bankrupt company...wanna bet??  If the price is right...they will sell.  Besides...we all already know they are broke right now, how much worse can their reputation get?

[myronman3]

i have heard all the union bashing you could imagine.   from management, to union brothers, and even done some complaining myself.  lest any of you think i am pro union all the time, think again.  i will bet i have more reasons to dislike the unions than any of you here, yet i am looking at the  big picture.   the excutives are trying to scapegoat the union and the members, and people just sign on to it without doing the math.   i have gone over it here in this theard and a few others; about corperate excess beyond imagination, and all anyone can  think about is the wage per hour.  what? ? 
   all i am saying is keep your eyes open and dont swallow what the corporate fatcats are saying hook, line and sinker.  many of you aint even going to think about it, you already have your minds made up.  and you are siding 100% with the culprits who got us here.   with this prevalent attitude, it almost makes me happy there is a pro-union guy that got elected.  at least that area of concern might be corrected.  corporate america has been allowed to run wild for the last  8 years, and i have watched executives chip away bits at a time until there is next to nothing left.   there has to be a balance and it is gone too far one direction. 

[dukkillr]

Don't want to loose your job to a robot?  Go to school and learn something they can't teach a robot.  Too many people say they can't or couldn't go to school because they can't or couldn't afford it.  Got a case in point story.  I have a good friend that worked as skilled labor right out of High School and here 15 years later is out looking for a job and can't find one that pays well without a degree.  He was one who "couldn't afford" to go to college like many others, but you should have seen that bright new shiny 4x4 pickup he bought just shortly after graduation that cost him about $25K.  Me?  I drove a $100 junker that I kept alive for 4 years to drive while I was going to college.  In the end, I spent less on my 4 year degree than he did on his first pickup.  Not bragging at all here, just trying to point out something that often gets overlooked.  You DO have choices in life, don't choose the easiest ones, choose the BEST ones.

LAZER

Great post.  The myth that people, "can't afford college" is just that, a myth.  2 of my college and one of my law school roommates were getting through 100% on work and student loans.  It's an excuse people use to cover their own laziness and/or ignorance.

[Troyboy]

Remeber this.........No union= no middle class

                      This all i'm gonna say except till i say told ya so

[dukkillr]

Remeber this.........No union= no middle class

                      This all i'm gonna say except till i say told ya so

It's frustrating that people can't see that the truth almost always lies in the middle.  Here's a secret it's seems that no one actually knows:  No person, organization, political party, or school of thought is always right.

For instance, unions have done a great service for the middle class workers in America for many years.  They shaped the economy that ran this country for decades.  They forced work rules that reformed all labor for the better. 

But, the pendulum has swung too far.  Now the UAW and other labor unions stand for excess, for grossly overpaying what the market will bear.  They've become entrenched and greedy, bloated and lazy.  The UAW has done a fantastic job of supporting it's workers, but I believe they've pushed past what the general public can accept as fair.  Too many people know union workers who get paid vastly more than their fair market value.  Public opinion has been shifting for years, but it shifted dramatically in the last week.

The world has changed.  America cannot be the industrial production country it once was.  The way forward will certainly include unions but they'll be drug kicking and screaming into the new economy. 

[Hairtrigger]

I have a friend that worked as an agent for Beneficial... the place you go when banks won't loan you money. Almost all of his business was people making 60K per year at the local GM foundry... spending all they made and more banking on the retirement GM offered... a fool and his money...

As mentioned in a prior post, these are people that started working right out of school and thought money was easy

[myronman3]

well duckkiller, i agree with your last post almost totally, except the part about which way the pendulum has swung.  where i am standing, with the companies i see (not the uaw) it is just the opposite.  the corporate guys are swimming in money, raking in more in a year than a person could ever really need.  meanwhile, wages havent gone up for the average employee (union or not).  
   i dont know about where you live, but with corporate layoffs, non union people i know are really wishing hard they were union.   the company i work for, has three major sides to it.  management, union, and non union craft.   we have been hit hard in the last 4 years with eliminations and layoffs.  within the last month, i was one of numorous people who were informed that their job was gone.   the non-union guys were met at the door with no warning, and their keys taken and told  "go home, your no longer employed with us."    some of the guys had way over 20 years, a few over 30.   being union, the years and moves i have endured to get where i am counted for something.  i have priority over guys who have less time, so i had to pick a new job, and then on down the line the 'bumping' started until it got to the guy with the least amount of time.    thank goodness i am union.  
   i have also witnessed unbelievable bulling of employees by management, and if it were not for the union the jerks would get away with it.  all it takes is one person in your chain of command to be a turd and your life can be turned upside down instantly.  again, thank goodness i am union.  
   now i suppose the old productivity arguement will raise it's head, but by and large, for the most part the more senior employee has more knowlege and is a bigger asset to the company than a lesser employee.  now i have seen exceptions to the rule, and i am sure many out there have too.   but most times the guy who has been around longer makes more money for the employer.  

[jimster]

I'm not against unions at all.  If they can convince people to give them their money and convince them that they will protect them, make things peachy, and save their jobs...more power to them.  If they go down, it's because they did a lousy job, simple as that.  The unions won't go down because of people who are not members or people that don't like them....it will be because they can't do what they say they can do.  They have a business too you know...keep their customers happy and working.  If they can't do that....don't blame me.  It has nothing to do with me not wanting to give MY money to a place I never worked at....so I really don't need anyone trying to make me feel guilty because I don't want to contribute to something I'm not part of.  Not my deal, no matter how many people try to tell me we will all starve to death if I don't pony up and get on the bail out wagon.  Gee wizz...people try to make me feel guilty because I do not agree with bailing out the company...then the unions....next what will it be?  Bail out the IRS,  or people will starve to death?

Best keep quiet now...you'll get those lame brains in Congress all shook up and they will do some more knee jerk legislation to SAVE US ALL.  
 

[Lazermule]

Just food for thought here, and really just trying to provoke conversation but consider the fact that the recent auto industry failing may be a cycle.  Here is my reasoning:  Consider the auto industry in the late 1930's, What was there 100 or more automakers?  I guess somewhere around there (Cord, Auburn, Franklin, Overland, REO, Diamond, Laverne Etc) and at that time, many were failing until the government bailed some of them out in form of placing business with them to build trucks, jeeps, tanks and airplanes for the war effort.  These were the ones who lived on and there are 3 that are still barely with us today.

Cycle of a bad business model for many years? I don't know, what do you think?

LAZER

[Hooker]

I don't know why so many people are against prosperity as represented by unions. The excesses reported of unions is likely true but over reported. Yes. unions should cleanup their act, but do away with them and with the state of the great 'social contract' and you will have slavery back in 7 years.

Personally, I think lawyers, as represented by the Bar fraternity, make way too much money relative to what they do and the mayhem they sow.. In fact I think purveyors of the Law should be provided by the State to ensure a fair shake for all citizens far removed from incomes as possible. 

..TM7

You make very good points.
There is enough blame here to go all the way around, and there are no victims. We have the government meddling where is does not belong , The upper management with it's greed and less than adequate management skills, Labor that wants top wages and less effort on their part for their unskilled labor,  Unions that are some where in the middle robbing the both sides. They may be doing good job of protecting the worker but they do nothing to protect the worker's job. Unions may be a necessary evil but let's not for get they are evil. They do not represent labor they own labor. Workers to them are either a pawn or a puppet that pays for the privilege to be owned. If it sounds as though I came down extra hard on the unions maybe it's because like the government they produce nothing while hold a monopoly on the market.

Pat

[nomosendero]

well duckkiller, i agree with your last post almost totally, except the part about which way the pendulum has swung.  where i am standing, with the companies i see (not the uaw) it is just the opposite.  the corporate guys are swimming in money, raking in more in a year than a person could ever really need.  meanwhile, wages havent gone up for the average employee (union or not).  
   i dont know about where you live, but with corporate layoffs, non union people i know are really wishing hard they were union.   the company i work for, has three major sides to it.  management, union, and non union craft.   we have been hit hard in the last 4 years with eliminations and layoffs.  within the last month, i was one of numorous people who were informed that their job was gone.   the non-union guys were met at the door with no warning, and their keys taken and told  "go home, your no longer employed with us."    some of the guys had way over 20 years, a few over 30.   being union, the years and moves i have endured to get where i am counted for something.  i have priority over guys who have less time, so i had to pick a new job, and then on down the line the 'bumping' started until it got to the guy with the least amount of time.    thank goodness i am union.  
   i have also witnessed unbelievable bulling of employees by management, and if it were not for the union the jerks would get away with it.  all it takes is one person in your chain of command to be a turd and your life can be turned upside down instantly.  again, thank goodness i am union.  
   now i suppose the old productivity arguement will raise it's head, but by and large, for the most part the more senior employee has more knowlege and is a bigger asset to the company than a lesser employee.  now i have seen exceptions to the rule, and i am sure many out there have too.   but most times the guy who has been around longer makes more money for the employer.  

Actually, I agree with Dukkillr concerning Unions swinging too far on the Pendulum, because they simply have done so.
And I agree with you concerning some at the top getting far more than necessary, it's both at the same time. Why folks think it has to be one or the other instead of both baffles me.

[nomosendero]

Don't want to loose your job to a robot?  Go to school and learn something they can't teach a robot.  Too many people say they can't or couldn't go to school because they can't or couldn't afford it.  Got a case in point story.  I have a good friend that worked as skilled labor right out of High School and here 15 years later is out looking for a job and can't find one that pays well without a degree.  He was one who "couldn't afford" to go to college like many others, but you should have seen that bright new shiny 4x4 pickup he bought just shortly after graduation that cost him about $25K.  Me?  I drove a $100 junker that I kept alive for 4 years to drive while I was going to college.  In the end, I spent less on my 4 year degree than he did on his first pickup.  Not bragging at all here, just trying to point out something that often gets overlooked.  You DO have choices in life, don't choose the easiest ones, choose the BEST ones.

LAZER

Great post.  The myth that people, "can't afford college" is just that, a myth.  2 of my college and one of my law school roommates were getting through 100% on work and student loans.  It's an excuse people use to cover their own laziness and/or ignorance.

That was a great post Laser. I was one of those who could not afford to go, but somehow I did.

[nomosendero]

As far as robots & machines doing some of the work goes, you have to do this at times to be competitive.

The more a factory relies on pure human labor, the more likely that plant will move to a part of the World where labor is cheaper, part of the reason that some of the GM plants are in Mexico & other places or they will go out of business because they can't compete with plants overseas. It is better to modernize & keep the work force there to do what the machines can't than to lose it all, as we have many times.

I had a similar conversation with some one recently about one of my customers. They decided to put in some robots to make their steel dock equipment. My friend said it was too bad & some would lose their jobs. I told him yes, but now they won't have to move to Mexico. And besides, someone has to sell those robots/machines & others sell parts for them & do the repairs as well. And some of those at least are local jobs. Now, due to this decision to modernize, the company has increased their market share & currently have more people employed than they did before, even with the robots.

By the same token, the car companies have to be as efficient & cost effective as possible. If you think the foreign companies won't do the same you are wrong, that should be evident at this point. And also, if you
think you will "out labor" a cheaper labor market, then more of the same is in store. 

[Lazermule]

Don't want to loose your job to a robot?  Go to school and learn something they can't teach a robot.  Too many people say they can't or couldn't go to school because they can't or couldn't afford it.  Got a case in point story.  I have a good friend that worked as skilled labor right out of High School and here 15 years later is out looking for a job and can't find one that pays well without a degree.  He was one who "couldn't afford" to go to college like many others, but you should have seen that bright new shiny 4x4 pickup he bought just shortly after graduation that cost him about $25K.  Me?  I drove a $100 junker that I kept alive for 4 years to drive while I was going to college.  In the end, I spent less on my 4 year degree than he did on his first pickup.  Not bragging at all here, just trying to point out something that often gets overlooked.  You DO have choices in life, don't choose the easiest ones, choose the BEST ones.

LAZER

Great post.  The myth that people, "can't afford college" is just that, a myth.  2 of my college and one of my law school roommates were getting through 100% on work and student loans.  It's an excuse people use to cover their own laziness and/or ignorance.

That was a great post Laser. I was one of those who could not afford to go, but somehow I did.

Thanks nomosendero,

Yeah, I was in the same boat and couldn't afford.  When I graduated college, my friend was still paying on his 72 month loan for his truck.  Pretty sad, but reality and now he sees the big picture.  His kids will be pushed to go to college....

LAZER

[torpedoman]

the idiots in congress think they can run a car company? They have bankrupted the whole country not just a company . the  idiot frank calling for the gm ceo to be fired. wonder why he didn't want to fire anyone in the insurance or banking industry?   To quote a congressman "the bank bailout was cash to people who make big campaign contributions the auto bail out would go to blue collar wages."

[myronman3]

for the record, i aint saying the uaw is free and clear of blame.  i just think way too many are buying into the way the executives are spinning it without giving it some thought.  biases are getting in the way of thinking, and i am sure that in this case, there is plenty of blame for everyone to shoulder their fair share.   

  i, for one, am tired of seeing the bigshots rape and pillage the company and then get out with their fortunes while everyone else loses.

[SHOOTALL]

MYRONMAN3, swimming in more money than anyone needs - STALIN would be proud of such a statement . Whats need got to do with it ? we work hard to exceed our need . anything less is wealfare

[myronman3]

MYRONMAN3, swimming in more money than anyone needs - STALIN would be proud of such a statement . Whats need got to do with it ? we work hard to exceed our need . anything less is wealfare

well now i think you have gone and done it.  that is the most ignorant, stupidist, dumbest thing i believe i have ever seen you post.   so if the exec's werent gouging the company into oblivian, it is welfare?   you must have met jamaldog87 and are sharing his stash.

[SHOOTALL]

No dude read what is written , i said nothing about the top brass . You did then made the remark about making more money than anyone needed which is pure BS in a profit generated economy . If we all only made what we needed who would decide what we need , you , me , the govt. ? who ! We would all be on wealfare cause why put out if ya can't get ahead anyway .
now as far as smoking dope , there are no pictures of me looking like a kid that got in his momma's make up kit and sisters water colors on the same day !
The US auto industry died in the 70's its just now in its finial throws !
Between unions, public education , the liberal media and other brain washing organizations we may in fact be done if people don't wake up !

[myronman3]

quite trying to twist my words.   yet another small person taking a shot at the avatar.   still at it with the punctuation marks, eh?  you are as sharp as the average marble.   i find it funy that you slam on the public education system, given your use of punctuation and your spelling.  a typo is one thing, but jeez.   
   that is the best you can do? 

[SHOOTALL]

didn't twist anything , this is no formal letter  so i make no excuse !
you put the picture out for the world to see , do you expect people to not have an opinion ? really you know you did it for attention .
I find it funny that several here attack others way of posting when they have exhausted all reasonable and intelligent come backs and start to offer off subject and irrational comments .

I feel sorry you and the UAW are watching your job/way of life go down the tube , But to blame everyone else and not assume at least some of the responsibility is what turns many off from wanting to help .

[Questor]

The writing has been on the wall, as we say, for a long time. A lot of smart people got out of Detroit within the past 10 years. Last time I was there about 5 years ago the northern suburbs were still quite nice, but I'm told by fellow travellers that even that has started to get seedy. For a while, Detroit was a great place to buy a Harley or similar luxury item because so many people were selling their stuff.

[myronman3]

shootall....i dont even know what you are talking about anymore; and neither do you.   go spout your gibberish somewhere else.   you are like a little kid, your idiotic rants.  i make a comment about greedy executives, and the next thing i know you are telling me stalin would be proud of me. ?? what is that?  i am tired of your small mind so quite directing your jabs at me.   
  you dont like my opinion that is fine, keep the insinuations and names to yourself.  stay on topic and beat me with a debate, quit trying to take it to the gutter. 
  the more i hear about people hating the avatar, the more i LOVE IT!

[SHOOTALL]

MYRONMAN3 , hang it up bud , how will you handle the skinnies (as you call um ) you can't hold your own on the internet !