Author Topic: The death of the US auto industry (Read 3298 times)

myronman3 · « **Reply #60 on:** December 17, 2008, 09:12:22 AM »

more astounding intellectual insight. like i said, debate the topic and i will respond. personal jabs are going to be ignored.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #61 on:** December 17, 2008, 09:21:45 AM »

look back you started it !
we can all see now why the US auto industry has gone down , thanks !

Graybeard · « **Reply #62 on:** December 17, 2008, 09:27:14 AM »

ENOUGH! I suggest you two put each other on IGNORE or just learn to ignore each other and move on. Don't make me lock another thread over petty bickering and name calling.

jgalar · « **Reply #63 on:** December 18, 2008, 04:26:39 AM »

Ford's most efficient assembly plant - unfortunately the UAW will not allow efficiency in the US

http://info.detnews.com/video/index.cfm?id=1189

As long as the UAW prevents the US automakers from modernizing the US auto industry is doomed to failure.

Questor · « **Reply #64 on:** December 18, 2008, 04:40:44 AM »

Management without a viable vision of the future, a union that exercises heavy friction on the company, and now the bumbling antics of the federal government. I can't imagine how GM and Chrysler can survive this. Ford might still have a chance. By the way, why are we still calling them the "big 3"?

jgalar · « **Reply #65 on:** December 18, 2008, 05:12:24 AM »

Its rather hard for the auto industry management to come up with a plan for the future when the rules and demand keep changing.
Americans don't want to drive around at 45mph with their knees at their chest, they want PUs and SUVs - at least until the gas goes up to $4 a gallon. I don't know about you, but I don't want an electric car that can only go 45 miles before it has to be charged overnight and electricity isn't cheap. Dodge spent a small fortune on research and development with their new challengers only to have them come out shortly before the gas prices shot up.
Management never knows when the pinheads in Washington will change the rules for emissions, safety, and fuel economy. Then you have states like California that set their own rules.

The best bet to keep the automakers in business is to get the government out of the loop. The federal government couldn't even run the Mustang Ranch (a whore house that the feds took over) why the heck anyone thinks they can run an auto industry.

Ford is smart not asking for bailout money, they will be the only viable automaker after the Fed dictates to GM and Chrysler what cars they can make. GM and Chrysler will be making "green cars" that nobody but left wing kooks will want to buy.

Lazermule · « **Reply #66 on:** December 18, 2008, 05:40:11 AM »

Quote from: jgalar on December 18, 2008, 05:12:24 AM

Its rather hard for the auto industry management to come up with a plan for the future when the rules and demand keep changing.
Americans don't want to drive around at 45mph with their knees at their chest, they want PUs and SUVs - at least until the gas goes up to $4 a gallon. I don't know about you, but I don't want an electric car that can only go 45 miles before it has to be charged overnight and electricity isn't cheap. Dodge spent a small fortune on research and development with their new challengers only to have them come out shortly before the gas prices shot up.
Management never knows when the pinheads in Washington will change the rules for emissions, safety, and fuel economy. Then you have states like California that set their own rules.

The best bet to keep the automakers in business is to get the government out of the loop. The federal government couldn't even run the Mustang Ranch (a whore house that the feds took over) why the heck anyone thinks they can run an auto industry.

Ford is smart not asking for bailout money, they will be the only viable automaker after the Fed dictates to GM and Chrysler what cars they can make. GM and Chrysler will be making "green cars" that nobody but left wing kooks will want to buy.

Very good point.... Look at the Prius, it can't even get the MPG that an early 1990's Geo Metro could get. Why, government involvement, crash standards make it heavy, EPA regs. etc.... Burns more fuel but pollutes less per gallon burned, but burns more fuel do you see the logic? Didn't think so. Yes, we now have Lawyers and politicians designing cars instead of us engineers that went to school to learn to actually do it right. Another question I would like to raise is where will all of these batteries be placed / disposed of when these wonderful hybrids are headed for the junk heap? I wonder if anyone has thought of that.

LAZER

Hairtrigger · « **Reply #67 on:** December 18, 2008, 06:03:19 AM »

Quote from: jgalar on December 18, 2008, 05:12:24 AM

Its rather hard for the auto industry management to come up with a plan for the future when the rules and demand keep changing.
.

They can continue to follow the lead of the Japanese auto makers if they don't want to think for themselves.... of course this has not worked well for them recently

Questor · « **Reply #68 on:** December 18, 2008, 07:06:44 AM »

They followed the lead of the Japanese once, and it saved them. They can do it again, but probably won't because they're too busy blaming everything and everybody for their problems.

myronman3 · « **Reply #69 on:** December 18, 2008, 10:04:11 AM »

and begging for money.

Heather · « **Reply #70 on:** December 18, 2008, 10:20:21 AM »

I personally think that the death of the auto industry would be a blessing in disguise to our country. As we all know "Necessity is the mother of all invention." Let's not bail them out and allow them to crumble, making it Necessary for them to rethink their business practices. It could allow for the Invention of transportation that doesn't require fuel to compete. It could decrease our independence on foreign oil and help keep our climate cleaner. Maybe it will even create more jobs to run these new industries and factories, hopefully kept right here in the U.S.A., than were lost from their collapse. There is no way to know for sure if it would be good for us in the long run or not, but the alternative (giving them our tax dollars) is not an option that I think is ethical or constitutional!

Heather

dukkillr · « **Reply #71 on:** December 18, 2008, 01:32:21 PM »

Quote from: Heather on December 18, 2008, 10:20:21 AM

I personally think that the death of the auto industry would be a blessing in disguise to our country. As we all know "Necessity is the mother of all invention." Let's not bail them out and allow them to crumble, making it Necessary for them to rethink their business practices. It could allow for the Invention of transportation that doesn't require fuel to compete. It could decrease our independence on foreign oil and help keep our climate cleaner. Maybe it will even create more jobs to run these new industries and factories, hopefully kept right here in the U.S.A., than were lost from their collapse. There is no way to know for sure if it would be good for us in the long run or not, but the alternative (giving them our tax dollars) is not an option that I think is ethical or constitutional!

Heather

Well said.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #72 on:** December 19, 2008, 02:41:36 AM »

One other thing , Ford withdrew asking for a bail out , Ford has opened plants elsewhere that run with robot labor . In the end this might be the replacement to humans , they don't get BENIFITS and show up every day , work at same speed , never ask for a raise !
they work like a machine !

Questor · « **Reply #73 on:** December 19, 2008, 03:16:45 AM »

SHOOTALL:

Then Ford is doing what the Japanese makers have been doing for decades: high tech plants are essential to making great cars affordable.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #74 on:** December 19, 2008, 03:38:47 AM »

can't beat um join um !
guess the playing field changed on the makes and uaw .

myronman3 · « **Reply #75 on:** December 19, 2008, 08:19:28 AM »

it should be fun watching these robots car shopping. seeing as some would have the robots building everything, i wonder exactly who is going to be buying the products they make....it certainly wont be the guy that was canned because robots took his job.
i will be offline for a while. you guys have fun flaming me in my absence.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #76 on:** December 19, 2008, 08:43:00 AM »

I think if i were in the uaw i would be looking into learning robot repair or building . It seems as one job closes another one or two open up .
Its called progress . Not fun for the workers but the way things work .
you know myronman3 its no need to flame you or the uaw it seems robots will win and nothing will stop it . Sorry if i was out of line before !
ya'll have alot to deal with .

rex6666 · « **Reply #77 on:** December 19, 2008, 08:51:05 AM »

Since the Gov. has agreed to a LOAN i can't wait to hear what the UAW will
have to say.

Questor · « **Reply #78 on:** December 19, 2008, 08:59:06 AM »

But I'm sure you already know what they will say:
1) There will be the strong implication that it's not enough
2) They will come back in February demanding more

And then it will be the beginning of the end of the UAW as we know it.

Lazermule · « **Reply #79 on:** December 19, 2008, 10:11:34 AM »

Quote from: myronman3 on December 19, 2008, 08:19:28 AM

it should be fun watching these robots car shopping. seeing as some would have the robots building everything, i wonder exactly who is going to be buying the products they make....it certainly wont be the guy that was canned because robots took his job.
i will be offline for a while. you guys have fun flaming me in my absence.

My prior job was designing custom robots for the auto industry. Most of the installs I did were in dangerous work environments or where quality control beyond human capabilities was required, and many times on new lines where there were no prior workers anyway. For some reason that didn't matter to some of the workers, as I was labeled as the bad guy that was taking jobs away from them. I had to take lunch at different times to avoid heckling and at one point some coward threw food at me in the cafeteria but wouldn't own up to it. There was one guy that would bark at me (yes, like a dog) when I would walk by his work area, soon others joined in and it sounded like a visit to the humane society. Yeah, real civilized I know. I guess that is where I got a bad taste for the UAW as the plant union rep just laughed at me when I reported the behavior. The plant manager was very upset but not allowed to do anything from what I was told. I did absolutely noting to provoke it except show up where I was told to do my job. I wonder what those guys are doing now?

LAZER

myronman3 · « **Reply #80 on:** December 19, 2008, 10:13:13 AM »

Quote from: SHOOTALL on December 19, 2008, 08:43:00 AM

I think if i were in the uaw i would be looking into learning robot repair or building . It seems as one job closes another one or two open up .
Its called progress . Not fun for the workers but the way things work .
you know myronman3 its no need to flame you or the uaw it seems robots will win and nothing will stop it . Sorry if i was out of line before !
ya'll have alot to deal with .

tempers get us all at times. but at least it shows that we care. merry christmas to you and yours shootall. (everyone else too)

billy_56081 · « **Reply #81 on:** December 19, 2008, 02:04:22 PM »

Quote from: Lazermule on December 19, 2008, 10:11:34 AM

Quote from: myronman3 on December 19, 2008, 08:19:28 AM
it should be fun watching these robots car shopping. seeing as some would have the robots building everything, i wonder exactly who is going to be buying the products they make....it certainly wont be the guy that was canned because robots took his job.
i will be offline for a while. you guys have fun flaming me in my absence.

My prior job was designing custom robots for the auto industry. Most of the installs I did were in dangerous work environments or where quality control beyond human capabilities was required, and many times on new lines where there were no prior workers anyway. For some reason that didn't matter to some of the workers, as I was labeled as the bad guy that was taking jobs away from them. I had to take lunch at different times to avoid heckling and at one point some coward threw food at me in the cafeteria but wouldn't own up to it. There was one guy that would bark at me (yes, like a dog) when I would walk by his work area, soon others joined in and it sounded like a visit to the humane society. Yeah, real civilized I know. I guess that is where I got a bad taste for the UAW as the plant union rep just laughed at me when I reported the behavior. The plant manager was very upset but not allowed to do anything from what I was told. I did absolutely noting to provoke it except show up where I was told to do my job. I wonder what those guys are doing now?

LAZER

Lazer, I have seen the thuggery at union plants where I was automating some systems, even to the point of physical threats. I remained professional and reported it to the management. The management said their hands were tied by the union until the sheriff showed up. Charges were filed and the person was charged with terroristic threats. The person was convicted and was fired after his conviction. I have had some insults and hard words from his fellow union filth, but they sure don't threaten me any more. BTW after the trial and conviction of this guy he and I had a little chat, and I informed him that if I would not have been on the job at the time he threatened me, I would not have called in the cops!

Lazermule · « **Reply #82 on:** December 19, 2008, 02:24:37 PM »

Yeah, staying professional was the right thing to do as I did the same. I did however get a bit irratated when food was thrown at me. I was pretty fresh out of school and had no idea of this stuff or was what I was in for.

I was in and out of that plant for 3 years and learned that I had to always watch my back. Had someone dump a pot of coffee into my tool bag one time. Ruined a real nice multimeter my dad gave me. I got fined 4 hrs labor rate for plugging into a 120v power source because that was an electricians job and I should have filed a work request 24 hours prior, got another fine for another 4 hrs for plugging in an air line which was a pipe fitters job, yep you guessed it I should have filed a request. I didn't make much money on that trip, but they sure did for doing nothing.....hmmm.......

enough said....Lazer

Brett · « **Reply #83 on:** December 20, 2008, 09:02:24 AM »

This is going back about 12 years ago when I live in 'Joyzee'. I helped a friend, who is a computer technician, move a financial company from one of the World Trade Towers to the other. The job involved setting up, restarting and checking all of their PCs and it had to be done over one weekend.

Being in NY City everything was union. I was not allowed to pick up, plug in, attach or otherwise touch anything until the actual start up and testing of the PCs. I had to wait for a union laborer to move a PC, monitor, router and or printer from the cart they were on to a desk at a work station. Then I had to wait on a union electrician to hook up the various wires. Now mind you most of them were computer clueless so I would have to stand there and tell them what wire to plug in where. I was not allowed to even push the buttons in the freight elevator myself, they had a union guy for that.

My buddy's company payed me something like $45 an hour to point and say "Put that here.", "Plug that wire in there." and run a simple diagnostic test program. I can only imagine what the union boys were making.

Graybeard · « **Reply #84 on:** December 20, 2008, 10:18:43 AM »

Like I've said many times before and will continue to say unions USED to have a place in this country. They no longer do. Today they do more harm than good and in my opinion based both on personal exposure and affliation and stories like these I've heard unions need to die a quiet peaceful death. Only then might the US again become a manufacturing nation again.

Lazermule · « **Reply #85 on:** December 20, 2008, 12:04:12 PM »

Quote from: Brett on December 20, 2008, 09:02:24 AM

This is going back about 12 years ago when I live in 'Joyzee'. I helped a friend, who is a computer technician, move a financial company from one of the World Trade Towers to the other. The job involved setting up, restarting and checking all of their PCs and it had to be done over one weekend.

Being in NY City everything was union. I was not allowed to pick up, plug in, attach or otherwise touch anything until the actual start up and testing of the PCs. I had to wait for a union laborer to move a PC, monitor, router and or printer from the cart they were on to a desk at a work station. Then I had to wait on a union electrician to hook up the various wires. Now mind you most of them were computer clueless so I would have to stand there and tell them what wire to plug in where. I was not allowed to even push the buttons in the freight elevator myself, they had a union guy for that.

My buddy's company payed me something like $45 an hour to point and say "Put that here.", "Plug that wire in there." and run a simple diagnostic test program. I can only imagine what the union boys were making.

OK, Based on what Brett has said and what I had experienced you're seeing where it leads in my opinion. How can you produce a product competitively like that?

LAZER

Graybeard · « **Reply #86 on:** December 20, 2008, 05:30:32 PM »

You CAN NOT.

Hairtrigger · « **Reply #87 on:** December 21, 2008, 02:04:19 AM »

Quote

OK, Based on what Brett has said and what I had experienced you're seeing where it leads in my opinion. How can you produce a product competitively like that?

LAZER

You go to Washington and beg for money

powderman · « **Reply #88 on:** December 21, 2008, 02:56:11 AM »

Several years ago the local General Electric plant was going strong, the union there really screwed things up. A friend of mine worked there, he would clock in, then go home. They took turns clocking each other out at the end of the shift. The union knew about it and went to bat for them when mgt complained. He was just one of many that did this, did it for years. Last I heard ge went kapoot. I was a union carpenter almost 20 years. Money was good when I worked, but the union was corrupt. Certain guys got the good jobs, easy money, little work. No doubt money changed hands often. About the autoworkers, I don't like the idea of my tax $ going to folks that don't work near as hard as I do and make 4-5 X the money I do to support their cushy lifestyle. POWDERMAN.

Lazermule · « **Reply #89 on:** December 21, 2008, 03:32:37 AM »

Very well said Powderman....

I was just talking to my wife and she shared a story with me of something she learned of last week. She is a commercial HVAC and Fire System engineer and works with a reputable non union mechanical contractor that has been around for 25-30 years. This contractor even though non union has taken on several jobs that required union labor in the past and fulfilled the requirements but just hiring a single union guy to stand around and watch the others do the work. This tactic of only hiring one union guy has worked well for him as he has been able to quote rather affordable and add a lot more value per dollar to the job yet pay a decent wage to his non union workers. Quite recently, he quoted on a rather LARGE job using the same plan of the single union guy among his workforce to fulfill the requirement. His quote came in quite far below the other firms that quote using union labor and he was awarded the largest contract in the history of his business. After signing the contract and getting started on the job, the general contract asked where his union workers were and he informed him that he had a union guy and revealed who it was. He was informed that on this job, ALL of the workers were to be union and commanded to stop immediately until his crew was 100% union. He is in a pretty tough spot right now as he has a signed contract that he must fulfill and he quoted much lower than it can be done with union labor. Last I heard, it was going in front of a judge and if it doesn't go his way he will be out of business.