PRB & T/C Maxi-Hunter load

[Nova]

Here is my situation:  I have a Traditions Deerhunter flinter in .50 cal.  I know this isn't a very high quality gun, but for the amount of blackpowder hunting I do...it works for me.  Right now I am shooting 90 gr. FFg Goex with a .490 round ball and .15 patch. (I'm pretty sure--good tight fit anyway).  With the factory open sights, which aren't the best, I am "deer hunting accurate" at 50 yds.  Basically, I can hit the vitals of a deer at that distance.  I haven't really played around very much at 100 yds, but I haven't had much success in doing so.  A friend of mine has the same gun, and is shooting 70gr. FFFg...and is getting better groups....and I hopefully I'm just not that bad of a shot.  Should I be looking to do more toward the 70 gr. mark?  Can I stick with FFg? (I did just buy a new can!!)  Is a 70 gr. load enough oomph (for lack of a better word) for deer up to about 75 yds?

And the second part of my question....the T/C Maxi Hunter.  I have thought about switching to conicals, as the rifle does have 1:48 twist.  I picked up the T/C/ Maxi hunters in 275 grain and tried my same 90gr. FFg load, and got somewhat inconsistent results at 50 yds.  Should I be going up in powder charge for the heavier projectile, or possibly even loading down a bit?  HELP!!

I would like to get to the range to do some more testing in before I head out with ol' smokey in the PA flintlock season...but if I don't get a chance to do so, I guess I will be sticking with 90gr and a PRB and just keeping it within 50 yds.

[Buckskins & Black Powder]

i'd try upping the charge some. Say 80gr 2f, Take a .015 patch and put it on top of the powder and then the .490 ball wrapped in another patch. This tightens my groups very good with my .54 cva.  The first patch acts like one of those fiber wads, but only much cheaper and easier to have on hand.  My traditions kentucky is a powder hog, 110gr 3f, but its reliable and accurate.

[buckskin billy]

traditions makes a fine gun. aint a thing in the world wrong with one that i know of. it should make you a fine deer hunting gun.
 there is a old saying " less is more" it could very well apply to your gun.
 you said your shooting 90 grains of ffg and your friend is shooting 70 grains of fffg. usually fffg shoots about 10% more than ffg.
 90 grains of ffg has a muzzle volocity around 1580fps and 70 grains of ffg has 1450 fps m.v. out of a 24 inch barrel 1-48" twist with a 490 round ball at177gr and a .015" patch.

90 grains of fffg is 1694 fps m.v. and 70 grains of fffg is 1542 fps m.v. with the same  twist and patch and ball. this is according to the lyman black powder hand book

in the book of buckskinning II on page 258 the author describes a method that has worked for me for determining a good load for a muzzle loader. that is to use a load of 1 1/2 times the caliber in grains, for calibers 45 and over. that would be around 75 grains in a 50 caliber.
 i shoot 70 grains of fffg out of my .54 caliber hatfield and have killed deer with no problems.

 these old guns were designed to shoot heavy bullets slow. the heavy bullet makes up for the lack of powder.
 around 70 grains is a good starting point whether its a round ball or a conical.
i would start at 70 grains and work up 5 or 10 grains till you find that "golden" load.
 in my .54 caliber hatfield i shoot 70 grains of fffg. i sit a wasp nest on top of the powder charge and i use a old flannel shirt for my patch material. at 50 yards i can place 5 balls touching each other when i do my part.
 in my thompson center 50 caliber i shoot 90 grains of fffg with a 395 gr lyman great plains bullet. it too shots center

[forest2]

I kinda follow billy's thinkin here, 90 grns might be pushin yer prb a bit in that gun. If you was to bring the powder charge down a bit, you may find placment of the round ball to be more consistant at a range of 80-100yrds to be more reliable.
 I'd rather put a round in the "boiler room" at 1400 fps, that one in the "gut" at 1650,,it's really all about placement.
 luck too ya,

[Nova]

Thanks for the replies so far....looks like i might try some lighter loads for the PRB.  What about for the Maxi's...when i shot them before, they were considerably lower than the PRB.  Does this mean I will have to increase the powder charge for them...or should I be pushing them with less powder as well?

[buckskin billy]

your velocity with the maxi bullets will be slower than a round ball reguardless of what powder charge you use. because the maxi bullet is heavier.
 think of a round ball as a car being drove into a wall at 60 miles per and the maxi bullet a semi being drove into a wall at 30 miles per hour. they both are gonna mess up the wall but which will do it better.
 i would start at 70 grains and work up from there to see what powder charge gives the best accuracy.
 
my book don't give no ballistics for a t/c maxi bullet as it was written by lyman. t/c and lyman being competitors and all.
 lyman makes a maxi bullet that weighs more than the t/c bullet you mention.
it weighs in at 370 grains. with 90 grains of 3f the m.v. is 1394 and with 70 grains of 3f is 1255 m.v. with a 1-48" twist. so maybe that can give you some idea, as your t/c bullet is less it should shoot a little faster than the ballistics i have

[flintlock]

Nova...What do your recovered patches look like after you shoot???
Without the proper patching material, thickness and lube, they burn through and you
will never achieve a good group...The next time you shoot, recover your patches and if they are burned in spots, post a pic and I can tell you more...Also, what are you using for patch lube???

How did you settle on 90grs??? As stated before, the best way to work up a load with a patched ball is to start low and increase to about twice the caliber...I used to shoot 120grs
of Geox FF in my .54...After a few kills, I backed down to 100grs and for the past 10 years or so I've been using 80grs of FFF...

As far as FF vs FFF...Back in the 70s, we were told FFF for .45 and smaller and FF for .50 and larger...I used to shoot FF, but I had a .45 and a .54...Now I have a .40 and a .54 and both of mine are flinters...I just went to FFF for the main charge and prime...What you will find is that the FFF burns cleaner and is a bit easier to clean up...

[Nova]

Honestly, I've never went looking for fired patches....never really occurred to me I guess.  I use patches that are pre-lubed with Bore Butter. 

I pretty much settled on 90 grs. because when I first got the gun I had no idea where to begin and 90 grs. of FFg was the load my uncle used in his flinter.  I shot it at the range and was hitting the target, so I adjusted the sights accordingly and just kind of settled for mediocracy I suppose.  Now I am a little older and wiser, and realize that I need to work up MY own load for MY gun to see what shoots best.  I honestly haven't given the gun its due at the range simply because by the time I get to thinking about shooting the flinter...its really freaking cold outside!! (To be brutally honest) 

Definitely seems to be the consensus to start at 70grs. and move my way up until I am satisfied with the results.  As far as the difference between the FFg and FFFg....I know the burn rate is a little different...should it make that big of an impact though?  And for the maxi-hunters...I like the fact that they are going to carry a little more of a wallop for deer.  I could care less about muzzle velocity...if the deer is dead I don't really care at what speed death was delivered.  Now...do I need to look at that as an entirely different load.  Should I find a good PRB load and then carry out the same process for the conicals (start at 70gr and work up)?  Or should there be some type of correlation between the two loads (i.e.--conical should take slightly larger charge, etc..)?

Thanks again guys...can never stop learning....

[flintlock]

I kinda figured you hadn't looked at the patches, many don't and I promise, until they look like you can relube and shoot again your groups won't be worth a dang...

Now, I would ditch the Bore Butter, tried it and my patches started burning through...You'd be better served with something like Crisco, SnoSeal or a mix I found over at www.muzzleloadingforum.com
that consists of bees wax, castor oil and Murphy's Oil soap...The beauty of making your own is that you can make it work for the temps that you anticipate...

Also...I don't care for prelubed patches...I have had problems with them burning through as well...Some think that patches have a shelf life once lubed and this can break down the fibers, reducing a patches durability...

We are asking that patch to do quite a bit...We are basically trying to burn it and if we are successful the group suffers...This is also a good reason why we should keep powder charges as low as possible and still get the job done...

Try this...Go to WalMart and buy a yard of the red or blue striped cotton pillow ticking...It's about .018 thick so it's a little more durable than the thinner stuff and will hold more lube...If you have SnoSeal in your area, pick some up...This stuff is made of bees wax and a softner...It's made to water proof boots...I used this for about 20 years and it does a good job, until it hits 85-90 outside and then it gets a bit runny if left in the sun...

Wash your pillow ticking a time or two and throw it in the dryer...This gets the starch out and helps shrink and compress the material...Cut a few stripes off the ticking, about an inch and a half wide...
Grab a putty knife and a few newspapers and the SnoSeal and head to the kitchen...Lay the pillow ticking stripes on the newspaper to keep from making a mess and with the putty knife, spread the SnoSeal on the ticking, covering both sides...Then put on a paper plate, or double paper towel, roll up and microwave for about 15-20 seconds...This helps the lube penetrate the cotton and the excess lube will flow out...

Now, when you load, put your powder charge down the barrel and with your short started, start the ball and leave it flush with the end of the barrel...Take a sharp knife or a pair of siccors and cut the patching and ram the ball home...

You can cut square or round patches later or either make a loading block and have the patched balls ready to go when you hunt...

With this way, you know that you have fresh lube and patching...From one season to the next, you can make a fresh batch of patches...

Finally...Lay a tarp down about 10 steps from where you are shooting and collect the patches...
Look for cuts near the edges, this is caused by rough rifling or a burr...
Look to see if they are burned, this is from a poor ball/patch fit to bore, too thin a patch, too heavy powder charge, etc...It can be stopped with an over the powder wad/hornets nesting or another patch rammed down but if the ball and patch fit the rifle properly then this should not be necessary until you start to get up to 100-120grs of powder...

On powder charges in a .50 caliber...70-85 grains is plenty...Frankly, unless you are shooting a custom rifle with a 38-44 inch long barrel, you probably aren't burning all the powder once you reach 80 grs...This is also another good reason to go to FFF, it burns faster in the shorter barrels of factory made muzzleloaders...

My thought on conicals in a traditional muzzleloader when deer is the game...Nope, I would prefer the round ball...Many will argue with all types of facts and figures...I've killed them with a .45 ball and 75grs of FFF and the ball ended up under the hide on the off side, they run about 60-75 yards with lung shots...As I said, I use 80grs FFF in my .54 and mold my own balls...Never had a problem...

Back in the 80s, my brother killed a few with a TC Hawken and Buffalo Bullets...So I have seen what they will do, but that ball flattens quickly and easily and from there it's all about penetration...

[nw_hunter]

Honestly, I've never went looking for fired patches....never really occurred to me I guess.  I use patches that are pre-lubed with Bore Butter. 

I pretty much settled on 90 grs. because when I first got the gun I had no idea where to begin and 90 grs. of FFg was the load my uncle used in his flinter.  I shot it at the range and was hitting the target, so I adjusted the sights accordingly and just kind of settled for mediocracy I suppose.  Now I am a little older and wiser, and realize that I need to work up MY own load for MY gun to see what shoots best.  I honestly haven't given the gun its due at the range simply because by the time I get to thinking about shooting the flinter...its really freaking cold outside!! (To be brutally honest) 

Definitely seems to be the consensus to start at 70grs. and move my way up until I am satisfied with the results.  As far as the difference between the FFg and FFFg....I know the burn rate is a little different...should it make that big of an impact though?  And for the maxi-hunters...I like the fact that they are going to carry a little more of a wallop for deer.  I could care less about muzzle velocity...if the deer is dead I don't really care at what speed death was delivered.  Now...do I need to look at that as an entirely different load.  Should I find a good PRB load and then carry out the same process for the conicals (start at 70gr and work up)?  Or should there be some type of correlation between the two loads (i.e.--conical should take slightly larger charge, etc..)?

Thanks again guys...can never stop learning....

3f will give you more bang for the buck than 2f...around 10% more.
I use 80 grains of 3f in my 62 smoothbore as well as my 54 and 50 cal barrels for hunting loads, or 90 grains of 2f.

For deer only load, I would start at 70 Grains and go up 5 gr. increments until the accuracy starts to leave.Accuracy is more important than the energy. Especially if your using a conical. That heavy lead slug will do a number on them.

[sproulman]

the MAXI-HUNTERS are not a good bullet for the 1-48 twist.

they are awful.

stay with the 370 MAXI-BALL with about 80 grs of 2f and you will see a big difference inyour groups.

MAXI-HUNTERS are to short and dont balance good in 1-48 twist.

[Swampman]

Then what are they for?

Just get some sissors and cut some square patches.  String the on a thread with a needle, and dip the stack in your melted lube.  Lube is 1 part lard, 1 part olive oil, and one part bee's wax.  Please don't use a patch knife on you muzzle.  I ruins the finish.

[sproulman]

Then what are they for?

Just get some sissors and cut some square patches.  String the on a thread with a needle, and dip the stack in your melted lube.  Lube is 1 part lard, 1 part olive oil, and one part bee's wax.  Please don't use a patch knife on you muzzle.  I ruins the finish.

i never did the patch thing, i guess you use sharp scissors to cut patch at muzzle.

i have bottle of bore 13 i am going to use on my pillow ticking then cut as you say,i want to use it up.

[Swampman]

You don't need to cut at the muzzle.  Just cut some square patches.  They work fine.  Olive oil is a good patch lube.

[nw_hunter]

the MAXI-HUNTERS are not a good bullet for the 1-48 twist.

they are awful.

stay with the 370 MAXI-BALL with about 80 grs of 2f and you will see a big difference inyour groups.

MAXI-HUNTERS are to short and dont balance good in 1-48 twist.

I never had a problem getting them to group in my TC's..........All1/48 twist.
The lyman real bullets also group good. The longer bullets do better in a fast twist.

One of the things I enjoy about shooting traditional ML's is working up the loads.
Gives me a good excuse to head to the range for an afternoon of makin smoke

[sproulman]

the MAXI-HUNTERS are not a good bullet for the 1-48 twist.

they are awful.

stay with the 370 MAXI-BALL with about 80 grs of 2f and you will see a big difference inyour groups.

MAXI-HUNTERS are to short and dont balance good in 1-48 twist.

vI neer had a problem getting them to group in my TC's..........All1/48 twist.
The lyman real bullets also group good. The longer bullets do better in a fast twist.

One of the things I enjoy about shooting traditional ML's is working up the loads.
Gives me a good excuse to head to the range for an afternoon of makin smoke

you are very lucky on the MAXI-hunters.

they were so bad that i had to call T/C and even send our guns in to have bores checked.

the gunsmith said to me,SPROUL I DID NOT TELL YOU THIS BUT THOSE MAXI-HUNTERS ARE NO GOOD IN YOUR 1-48 TWIST.

ONLY USE THE 370 MAXI-BALL .

when i got guns home, i put in MAXI-BALL  and shot clover holes at 50 yds.

6 of us have the 1-48 twist t/c.all used the MAXI-BALLS  and right away put bullets in same holes.

all shot the maxi-hunters terrible.

[sproulman]

You don't need to cut at the muzzle.  Just cut some square patches.  They work fine.  Olive oil is a good patch lube.

ok, i see.