35WHELEN bit the dust

[LONGTOM]

Well it happened today.
Went hunting this morning and as always took along the WHELEN along with my WIN 270wsm.
Shot at a nice doe on a slow run at about 125yds, a clean miss.
I very seldom miss this type of shot but have never tried it with a 35.
Didn't give it much thought.
30 minutes later spotted a young doe bedded down at about 85yds.
Thought I would take a head shot.
Shot felt good but up and away she went.
A little hair and three drops of light blood.
Not even enough to track.
Lost her over to the neighbors land, really thick.
Now I am getting a little upset.
20 minutes latter and another doe bedded at about 70yds.
This time I went for the chest and again up and away she went.
No blood, no hair.
Caught up to her a few minutes latter on the adjoining property and she was fine.
Not a mark.
That's three shots from a gun I took a head shot with at 170+ yds.
Hunt over for this morning.
Set it up at my range and wow, 3" right and 6" high at a 100.
Second shot the same.
Had to open a new box of ammo.
OK the scope got bumped?
Adjusted 12 clicks left and 20 clicks down, should be close, WRONG!
Now it's 1" right and 5" low.
The next shot the same.
Found another box of ammo with the same lot # as the first one I was using.
No scope adjustment and it hits 3" high and 2" right for two shots then starts to go everywhere.
OK, The scope went south, except for one thing.
I shot up the rest of that box and the box that shot low and had a total of 7 rounds that would not go off.
Now is it the scope or some more of BIG GREENS ammo.
This is what turned me against REM ammo many years ago.
I won't take the time to work with it right now as I need meat,
and I haven't had time to shoot the RMEF 35 yet, so out comes the 45-70 Handi.
It has always done a fine job.
We will see tomorrow, I HOPE!!!


LONGTOM

[Default]

 That Christmas spirit to old Default starting to sound better now Tom     hehehehe

   Seriously though sounds like a scope thing brother , Check all the screws ..If not that pull one you know to be proven and set up again ... And for God sake man start reloading that 35 W already


    Default

[LONGTOM]

If the RMEF gun shoots than that barrel just might be on it's way if I can't find the problem.
I find it hard to beleave that so many rounds failed to fire when so many more shoot fine.
I even tried a couple two & three times making sure to turn them as to not hit the same spot on the primer and they still would not fire.
Yes I will try another scope and I will reload for it but it won't be with REM componets other than the brass!


LONGTOM

[quickdtoo]

Now ya know why H&R discontinued it. 

Tim

[LONGTOM]

Yea but was it a gun problem or a ammo problem?


LONGTOM

[Spanky]

I've had problems with my Ruger M77 in 35 Whelen using Remington ammo.
I even had the firing pin spring replaced with a heavier one and still have FTF's sometimes.
I haven't tried reloading for it but I bet that would solve the problem.



Spanky

[LONGTOM]

Sounds like a weak or hard primer to me.
Is REM the only one who loads the 35W?


LONGTOM

[Spanky]

That's another thing...
The primers on the rounds that won't fire are dented the same as the rounds that do fire.
I have tried to re-fire some of them 3 or 4 times with no bang.
Primer dented good and deep just won't fire.


Spanky

[quickdtoo]

Yea but was it a gun problem or a ammo problem?


LONGTOM

Likely a combination of both as stated in the FAQs on the topic. Some Whelen barrels were fixed so they work fine, others never were, so it's likely a chamber/ammo incompatibility problem.

Tim

[LONGTOM]

I really don't think it's the gun.
Like I said, I will try another scope and just as an experiment I might pull some bullets dump the powder in a container reprime with a different brand of primer and put the same powder back and reseat and see what happens.


LONGTOM

[LONGTOM]

I wonder if anyone has had FTFs with any other types or brands of guns?
If so than I would say it is surely a primer problem.


LONGTOM

[quickdtoo]

Here's what Remington wants done with misfired ammo.

Tim

What should I do with misfired ammunition?

[Sourdough]

Reload some .35 cartridges using CCI primers and give them a try.  Bet the problem goes away.  I only shoot Remington ammo through the Wife's (Used to be mine) custom Mauser .35 Whelen.  I strictly reload for my Handi .35 Whelen.  I like the 250gr Nosler Partition.  I only use the Whelens from Tree stands for Bear.   

[GURU]

i had the same problems with my rmef .35 whelen. i almost tossed it in the garbage. i had 8 out of one box of remingtons fail to fire along with many handloads using remington brass that was full length resized. 6" to 10" groups at 100 yards .after about 150 rounds and only using once fired brass that was only neck sized, 200 grain hornady spire point bullets and reloader 15 powder at about 2650 fps. , i finally got it to shoot good . it now fires every time and im getting some great groups. 2" to 3" grups at 200 yards. its now one of my favorite guns. i just wont use factory remington ammo in it anymore. also the o-ring trick on the forend really helped mine too, it seems  the longer barrel is more subject to problems if the forend is putting pressure on the barrel.

[skifastchad]

Here's what Remington wants done with misfired ammo.

Tim

Have you or anyone else done so before?  Do they offer any reimbursement?

I looked at my UPS software and it would cost me $33 to ship a few misfired rounds to them.

[LONGTOM]

I think you/we have it figured out now.
I will reload for it with another brand primers and neck size only and see if that fixes the problem along with another scope.

Just got back from this mornings hunt.
Foggy and rain.
Only saw one deer at about 70yds.
The 45-70 Handi stepped right up and did it's job.
Head shot with 300jhp factory WIN.
I knew it wouldn't let me down!!!
70# button, about 1/2" long.
Though it was a small doe.
Oh well, it will still be good eating!!!
Got to go, got work to do.   


MERRY CHRISTmas!!!



LONGTOM

[quickdtoo]

Congrats LT, the old 45-70 comes thru again!!

Here's what Remington wants done with misfired ammo.

Tim

Have you or anyone else done so before?  Do they offer any reimbursement?

I looked at my UPS software and it would cost me $33 to ship a few misfired rounds to them.

No, haven't had any Rem ammo misfire but it wouldn't be that expensive, there's no hazmat fee on loaded ammo, I just used their shipping calculator for a 2lb package @ $9.11, 1lb is $7.91.

Tim

https://wwwapps.ups.com/ctc/request?loc=en_US&WT.svl=PNRO_L1

[skifastchad]

Yes standard is cheap, but Remington says to mark the package ORM-D, which is an additional $20 minimum.

No way would I pay that much to find out why my ammo didn't fire, unless they send a free box back to me. 

[quickdtoo]

There's no Hazmat fee for small arms ammo, I've shipped ammo before, just not to Remimgton.

Tim

http://www.cartridgecollectors.org/shipping.htm

[FW Conch]

  I am reluctant to join in here because some posters seem extremely sensitive when the truth is discussed about these rifles but if I hurt any feelings out there in cyberspace, too bad, "tuffen up" !

The chamber on my 30-06 is so sloppy that Tim once recommended that I send it back. I didn't want to do
it @ that time, then I heard about Gardner closing up, & I will not deal with New York, not yet anyway.
The way I got my '06 to shoot is by forming a "false shoulder on my brass" ! And I do it the "poor mans way" .  I ordered 3 expander balls from LEE , .303 , 8mm , & .338. I chucked them in my drill & shined them up chrome bright with 1200 grit. I drive them down the neck one @ a time with a mallet , then I put 2
washers on the face of my LEE Loader & neck size about 3/4 down the neck. I play with it until I have about .0005 headspace, (at least not rubbing on the breach face!). Once I load one of these monstrosities
& shoot it, it is fire formed to my sloppy chamber & accuracy is achieved evermore. I have reloaded some
of these cases 10 times & have not had to bump the shoulder back yet.

Anyone out there who doesn,t want to "fiddle" with your Handi , pay heed .

I am going to further embarrass my self & admit that I don't know what an "r m e f " type 35 Whelen is, &
I know it's in the FAQ's but I should be @ work right now.

LONGTOM, you may want to give this a try & see what happens, but if you decide to dump that barrel maybe I'll take it off your hands when I'm up your way in early spring. GOOD LUCK- GOTTA GO-Jim

[quickdtoo]

RMEF = Rocky Mountain Elk foundation, they were 1996 commemorative edition 26" barreled Ultras chambered in 35 Whelen. Using a false shoulder is discussed in the FAQs under handloading for improved chambered Handis, you can also load big bullets hard into the lands to accomplish the same goal of fireforming the brass to fit the chamber. 

Tim

[coyotejoe]

I think you/we have it figured out now.
I will reload for it with another brand primers and neck size only and see if that fixes the problem along with another scope.

Just got back from this mornings hunt.
Foggy and rain.
Only saw one deer at about 70yds.
The 45-70 Handi stepped right up and did it's job.
Head shot with 300jhp factory WIN.
I knew it wouldn't let me down!!!
70# button, about 1/2" long.
Though it was a small doe.
Oh well, it will still be good eating!!!
Got to go, got work to do.   


MERRY CHRISTmas!!!



LONGTOM

I used to take head shots before I learned the hard way that there is a rather small brain inside that head. A hit to the jaws will not kill quickly, will leave no blood trail and will condemn an animal to a horrible slow death. That "little hair and three drops of blood" from your second shot probably was such a hit. I now take brain shots only when shooting from a solid rest at close range when I feel absolutely CERTAIN. Since you had "clean missed" your first deer it was inexcusable to try for a head shot on the second one and you even boast of taking a head shot at 170 yards! I'm sorry but this needed to be said.

[LONGTOM]

coyotejoe

The head shot that drew blood was after a clean miss on a running deer.
Nothing would indicate that there was a problem with the gun at that point.
After a quick range section it was pretty clear that the blood was not from the head.
6" high and 2" left.
The way the doe was laying I feel sure that it was a cut across the top of the neck.
Head down, turned back at me off the right side.
As for head shots they are a sure kill, and I only take them when I have a very good rest.
The 170ytds was not a boast, merely stating a fact, and that shot should prove that the gun and the shooter are more that capable of making such shots.


LONGTOM

[casterbuster]

I will have to agree with coyotejoe headshots shouldn't be taken, to many things could go wrong a badly hit animal will definately suffer as with any poorly placed shot.  This is the kinda ammo the "anti's" will use against us.  I'm sorry but I have to say it was a irresponsible choice on your part to try a head shot at all, much less with a questionable rifle.  I know people do it all the time and you may have made that same shot one thousand times before, but how about that one time that it didn't work out.  Food for thought

[FW Conch]

   Tim, I've heard of the method you suggest but I've never felt comfortable trying it in the break action

 Handi !  Is the starting load for the bullet weight listed plenty safe ?       Jim

[quickdtoo]

Yes, as long as you're using start loads, and not a load that was worked up prior to loading into the lands, you'll be fine. To load into the lands, just keep seating the bullet slightly deeper until the action can be closed completely with no gap as seen from the side against a good light source as if you were checking barrel fit. On an ejector barrel, it will stick in the chamber and won't eject the live round. I've never measured it, but I think Fred has said he loads several thousandths into the lands, and it may depend on the bullet too.

When I got first got my RMEF Whelen, I bought some brass from Mac, there were 5 pieces out of the new bag of Rem brass that had way too much headspace, so I just loaded them into the lands with 250gr Speer spitzers since that's the load I was working on and carried on, they fireformed just fine and I couldn't tell them from the rest of the bag. 

Tim

[LONGTOM]

Where do you guys come off with the questionable rifle.
If you miss a shot at a running deer do you just quit hunting for the day until you check your gun?
I guess no one just ever misses!
If I had thought there was anything wrong with it I sure would not have taken ANY SHOT with it until I had checked it out.
I can say one thing, I have seen more deer lost due to a bad body shot than I have to a bad head shot.
To me an animal that drops in it's tracks suffers far less than one that runs even a short distance, and that's a fact!
Sure anything can go wrong with any shot.
The same holds true that anything can go wrong with a piece of equipment at any time.

Just to ease your worries, I just got off the phone with my neighbore who owns the land where that deer went after the shot.
I had talked to his son last night to be on the look out for a wounded doe.
She was shot this morning by his son with a 243 at about 65yds in the neck.
He said she did have a small cut across the top of the neck about 4" back from her ears.
That complies with where it was hitting when I put it on target after I got back home yesterday.
Good to know she did not go to waste.

casterbuster

I know people do it all the time and you may have made that same shot one thousand times before, but how about that one time that it didn't work out.  Food for thought

You could say the same thing about any shot taken at game.
If I had to say any shot was irresponsible it would be the miss at the running deer.
Now that I think about it it truly was!
Sure I have done it before but to me there is more of a chance of a bad hit than the one we are talking about.

casterbuster

I'm sorry but I have to say it was a irresponsible choice on your part to try a head shot at all

I guess that coyotejoe is also irresponsible!

coyotejoe

I now take brain shots only when shooting from a solid rest at close range when I feel absolutely CERTAIN.

Come on guys we are better than that!


LONGTOM

[JonD.]

Well it happened today.
Went hunting this morning and as always took along the WHELEN along with my WIN 270wsm.
Shot at a nice doe on a slow run at about 125yds, a clean miss.
I very seldom miss this type of shot but have never tried it with a 35.
Didn't give it much thought.
30 minutes later spotted a young doe bedded down at about 85yds.
Thought I would take a head shot.
Shot felt good but up and away she went.
A little hair and three drops of light blood.
Not even enough to track.
Lost her over to the neighbors land, really thick.
Now I am getting a little upset.
20 minutes latter and another doe bedded at about 70yds.
This time I went for the chest and again up and away she went.
No blood, no hair.
Caught up to her a few minutes latter on the adjoining property and she was fine.
Not a mark.
That's three shots from a gun I took a head shot with at 170+ yds.
Hunt over for this morning.
Set it up at my range and wow, 3" right and 6" high at a 100.
Second shot the same.
Had to open a new box of ammo.
OK the scope got bumped?
Adjusted 12 clicks left and 20 clicks down, should be close, WRONG!
Now it's 1" right and 5" low.
The next shot the same.
Found another box of ammo with the same lot # as the first one I was using.
No scope adjustment and it hits 3" high and 2" right for two shots then starts to go everywhere.
OK, The scope went south, except for one thing.
I shot up the rest of that box and the box that shot low and had a total of 7 rounds that would not go off.
Now is it the scope or some more of BIG GREENS ammo.
This is what turned me against REM ammo many years ago.
I won't take the time to work with it right now as I need meat,
and I haven't had time to shoot the RMEF 35 yet, so out comes the 45-70 Handi.
It has always done a fine job.
We will see tomorrow, I HOPE!!!


LONGTOM

Definitely sounds like your scope and some bad ammo to me. I had an older Redfield scope mounted on a Remington 742 30-06, and it went bad. It was bad on that gun, but at the time I thought that the gun wouldn't shoot any better than the 3-4" groups I was getting with it. It wasn't until I took it off and mounted it on another gun did I realize the scope was bad. A new scope on that old 30-06 brought some very impressive groups out of a short barreled automatic.

I would definitely put another scope on and try it. I don't know how many rounds you've shot out of your barrel, but I wouldn't think it to be shot out.

[LONGTOM]

The barrel was used when I got it and I have put about 60 rounds through it.

I too beleave it is the scope.
I will find out after the season is over.


LONGTOM

[LONGTOM]

I just thought of something.
Some of you are blaming me, but the fact remains that it could still be the scope.
I won't know until I try another one.

Lets say that all the things were the same except I was making a vitals shot and the same thing happened.
It very well could have resulted in a high gut shot.
Would I still be irresponsible?
I don't think an equipment failure makes one irresponsible!
The only difference would be that I would have a blood trail to follow.
How far?
How long would the deer suffer before I found her?


LONGTOM