question handie in 30-30. AI

[bart74]

I HAVE A HANDIE IN 30-30 AND MAY HAVE THE CHANCE TO HAVE IT REAMED TO 30-30AI  BUT I DONT WANT TO IF IT WANT SHOOT THE PARENT ROUND AS GOOD AS IT DOES NOW .

[Jones]

That do you get out of AI-ing a 30-30? The way i see it 100% of nothing is still nothing. Yes the 30-30 is a good round but y not go with some thing different?

 sorry no help

  GJ

[petemi]

Decisions, Decisions, Decisions.  I'm facing the same question going from .357 Magnum to .357 Maximum.

Pete       

[dpe.ahoy]

I have one on the way, and am needing to find out where to get some reloading information for it.  I tryed the search for 30-30AI and got alot of everything but that.  DP

[yukondog]

dpe. try reloadersnest.com

[dpe.ahoy]

I feel your pain Pete.  If I rent the reamer , do I do all 3 barrels?  What if I mess them up?   What if they don't shoot as well?  Isn't there enough stress this time of year?    To many thing to play with, and not enough time.  DP   Thanks yukondog.  DP

[bart74]

MINE SHOOTS GREAT AND FROM WHAT I HAVE READ THERE IS NOT A LOT OF GAIN AND I DONT WANT TO MESS  IT UP IF IT WANT SHOOT FACTORY 30-30 AMMO

[Jimbo47]

I tossed around the idea of reaming my .357 mag to max, and had to ask myself...Why?

It shoots really great, and it's not going to gain that much more, and about the same can be gained by shooting some factory loads such as the Buffalo Bore cartridges.

The brass isn't as easy to come by for the max, and the .357 brass is plentiful, and cheap, same as the 30-30.

Reaming a .357 mag. to 35 Remington would make a lot more sense in my opinion than only going to the .357 maximum, so unless there is an issue with accuracy I can't see the benefit of reaming.

[quickdtoo]

I HAVE A HANDIE IN 30-30 AND MAY HAVE THE CHANCE TO HAVE IT REAMED TO 30-30AI  BUT I DONT WANT TO IF IT WANT SHOOT THE PARENT ROUND AS GOOD AS IT DOES NOW .

I have one of each, I loose 300fps using Rem 150gr factory ammo in the improved Handi, ~2025fps compared to 2330fps in a standard chamber, accuracy is acceptable tho. With handloads for the 30-30AI using 375Win brass and the 125gr Sierra PH SPT I get 2865fps average MV, I'll be working with the 130gr TTSX next.

Tim

[FW Conch]

bart74, I feel your pain buddy !  But let me ask you, have you tried loading your 30-30 with good spitzer bullets ?  Do you really need a little more velocity ?  I think the only thing that could be worse than selling a good shooting rifle & forever wishing you had it back would be messing up a good shooter yourself. I have these inclinations too but I have decided to buy a used barrel. If the 7.62x 39 were available & if it were a .308 bore ??       :      So aggravating   Good Luck  Jim

[sooter]

I shoot the 30-30 rechambered to the 30-30 Improved and using 375 winchester brass, i can shoot the sierra 100 grain hollot point just shy of 3,000 fps. and the speer 125 grain TNT bullet to just over 2,800 fps.. Both bullets will shoot less than an inch at 100 yards.

[bart74]

thanks for the info. guys i think i will just leave this one alone Tim said above that he lost 300 fps. in the improved chamber  so I'm not going to mess with it  Bart

[cwlongshot]

Well here is my take. The idea is a good and sound one. The imp case is tailor made for the handi platform. Considering the alternative in factory form is the 308. While an excellent cartridge in its own right, its rimless. Yea yea, I know many many people use rimless handis with no problems. BUT, many others have had problems. few will argue, all these problems GO AWAY if you stay with a rimmed case. IMHO headspacing on the RIM in a handi or any brake action is THE way to go.

 SO, the 30-30 AI is a good choice as would be the 30-40 Krag. Its a HAND LOADING only proposition in the Imp case, so why fret about a couple hundred FPS loss shooting factory fodder? Your making it to IMPROVE on fact ballistics, right? The ability to shoot factory stuff is good and can be done to make cases or in the event your handloads are unavailable.  I say just do it the ballistics's advantage is a good one and its a worthwhile upgrade and improvement.

As for the "questions" about the 357 Maxi reaming. I completely fail to see any legitimacy to the arguments posted.

 1) Loss of ability to shoot 38/357mags with any accuracy. NOT so, many of us actually have sen IMPROVEMENT in said accuracy!!

 2) Issues finding cases. Where have you been? Cases are easily available at any one of a number of sponsors right here on GBO!!!

 3) Not a big enough gain in performance. WHAT, again, where have you been? Show me ANY 357mag that will top 2000fps with a 180 gr bullet within safe pressures. (There are none!!) THEN we will go shoot my MAXI and we will TOP 2200fps WITHIN SAFE pressures from my 21" barrel!!!

 4) Why not just go 35 Rem. NUMERIOUS reasons...  First off, lets be clear. Its a GREAT old caliber and I love it. BUT, it is loaded to much lower pressures and has been PLAGUED with head space issues. Remember its another rimless case. IMHO, making it a poor option for the Handi. YEA, I know its recently offered by the factory. But time will prove this out, it too will be plagued with headspace & ejection problems and will not last long. (Where is the Whelen?) Besides, within published load data, its a ballistic equal to the Maxi and the maxi is very well liked and received from all who are so inclined to ream one. In case I didn't mention it before, its my favorite handi caliber. 

CW

[Bob A]

I see a couple of references to using 375 win brass with the 30-30 AI.
Please explain the process of forming the brass. Is there a die set made for this?

Bob A

[R.W.Dale]

98% of the improvements people gain going to an AI chambering are the result of the cartridge getting loaded to higher pressure. The sexy shoulder contributes virtually nothing.

So to that end in a strong firearm rated to handle 65kpsi you could form 375 cases into 30-30win load the pee out of them well beyond saami spec for this cartridge and achieve most if not all of the velocity gains quck has seen in his AI yet still retain your excellent accuracy with factory ammo.


In fact that's why I have a 30-30 bbl ordered for my late model high pressure frame so I can shoot the same thermonuclear spitzer loads in a rifle I shoot in my 30-30 revolver

[quickdtoo]

I see a couple of references to using 375 win brass with the 30-30 AI.
Please explain the process of forming the brass. Is there a die set made for this?

Bob A

Not the most practical prcoess, but I use several FL dies to get there, lube good with Imperial sizing die wax, 35 Rem, 338 Federal, 32 Special, Redding 30-30 Imp 40º trim die which also works as a body die, then Hornady 30-30 Imp just enough that the action will lock up on the chambered brass , then outside neck turn with a Lyman neck turner, Win brass is quite a bit thicker. I end up with an almost perfectly formed case, there's little difference between it and a fired case which will be slightly fuller just below the shoulder. I hand reamed mine, but I suppose you could also neck ream the chamber to eliminate the neck turning, but then factory ammo may not be very good option which I don't see any real pros to that unless in a pinch.

Tim

[cwlongshot]

I see a couple of references to using 375 win brass with the 30-30 AI.
Please explain the process of forming the brass. Is there a die set made for this?

Bob A

 As Krochus eluded to the 375 is a newer cartridge and loaded to higher pressures than the 30-30 was originally intended to handle. Thing is, as far as more or less strength, we are talking about brass here, the brass is simply a vessel to hold the powder. Using the 375 brass will net you less powder capacity. If your thinking your getting a stronger load, your fooling your self...

The AI loads generally reduse body taper and sharpen the angle of the shoulder in an attempt to increase powder capacity. In an improved case, more powder at the same pressure for the same weight projectile = better performance. The nice thing about Ackley improved cases is the ability to shoot factory loaded shells and get fireformed cases. If your working with store bought 30-30 cases, remember you need to make the case bigger not smaller to get a AI case. So, no there is no die that will work. If you could get your hands on 30-30 basic cases, YES you could run them thru a AI die and get 30-30 AI brass.

CW

[R.W.Dale]

As Krochus eluded to the 375 is a newer cartridge and loaded to higher pressures than the 30-30 was originally intended to handle. Thing is, as far as more or less strength, we are talking about brass here, the brass is simply a vessel to hold the powder. Using the 375 brass will net you less powder capacity. If your thinking your getting a stronger load, your fooling your self...

 I disagree You most certianlly can achieve higher velocities with less case capacity through higher pressures. Take 7mm-08 vs 7x57mauser as an example. You just have to use an appropriate burn rate for your case capacity.

Now will a 60kpsi 30-30 load be quite as fast as a 30-30AI loaded to the same pressure, not quite but almost. But will a 60k psi 30-30 load be significantly faster than factory ammunition. YOU BETCHYA!

The use of 375 cases are simply to give a more realistic brass life at higher pressures, which I'm not convinced you even need those if you're using a firearm that's not prone to case stretching

[cwlongshot]

I disagree You most certianlly can achieve higher velocities with less case capacity through higher pressures. Take 7mm-08 vs 7x57mauser as an example. You just have to use an appropriate burn rate for your case capacity.

 Of coarse you are correct, but I think you miss read me...

In an improved case, more powder at the same pressure for the same weight projectile = better performance.

 Again, I agree, we are saying the SAME thing..

CW

[R.W.Dale]

In an improved case, more powder at the same pressure  for the same weight projectile = better performance.

I think we're both saying largely the same thing just in different way's

But the increase in capacity going to an AI case is pretty insignificant over the parent case and thus the velocity increase at the same pressure as you note, by far the largest performance gains AI's see are a direct result in the increase in pressure that loaders couple with going to an AI

All I'm saying is that there's two parts to AI'ing,

one is the change in case geometry and capacity.

Two and in my opinion the biggest is the increased operating pressures us handloaders load AI's to. This could be applied to the parent case without the need to get the reamer out.

[dpe.ahoy]

The only reason I have one coming is because a barrel was bored the wrong diameter to go with the chambering.  To save it from being a tent stake, had it rechambered to the 30-30AI.  Already have a regular Handi 30-30 as well as 2 levers, so didn't plan on going for the AI.  Of course with the Christmas rush on packages, not sure how long it will be until it and the 7-30 Waters barrel show up.    I think it's going to be the most expensive 30-30AI barrel around.  DP

[cwlongshot]

OOH... The 7-30 Waters. I have been thinking on that one quite a bit lately.....


 I had a Contender barrel for that one some years back, the wife took here first deer with it and a 130Gr Speer boolit!!

 I'll be watching for the progress reports!! 

CW

[Fred M]

That do you get out of AI-ing a 30-30? The way i see it 100% of nothing is still nothing. Yes the 30-30 is a good round but y not go with some thing different?

The above quote is simply silly and reflexes no knowledge.

A 5.0gr increase in powder is not exactly nothing, it is a worthwhile conversion for a small case. Just forget about shooting standard 30-30 ammo. If you want to do that then forget about the AI.

Myself I would get a reamer to get rid of that useless long neck
and go for a .300 long neck and call it a 30-30Imp. This is a very fine and super accurate cartridge. No it won't shoot standard loads.

If you want a real good powerful 30 cal rimmed cartridge go for a 30 Blaser a standard caliber.

[R.W.Dale]

according to these drawings the gain in case capacity difference is just over 2grs of water, all in all a pretty insignificant amount well within what different brands of brass could vary.

Quick if you're bored I would like to see a capacity measurement taken between your 30-30AI case made from 375 vs a std 30-30 case, both fired measured in grs of water. I would appreciate this a great deal as I have 2 different non levergun 30-30's that could handle 65Kpsi

[FW Conch]

  Useless long neck ? Same as with the 30-40 Krag, eh Fred ?     Jim

[Rustyinfla]

  What I read from Tim's post was that when he fired std. 30-30 cases in the .30-30 AI chamber he lost 300 FPS. I could see that happening. I've always been under the impression that one of the features of the AI chamberings is that is that they CAN be fired with std. ammo if need be. Not that you'd want to but in case of an emergence and you didn't have any more AI cases at least you could still safely shoot the gun.
  Also that the reason for increasing the size of the case is  so that you can build as much or more pressure but the extra space allows the pressure curve to be a little more gentle.
  Maybe it's my misconception. someone correct me if I'm wrong.

[quickdtoo]

Quick if you're bored I would like to see a capacity measurement taken between your 30-30AI case made from 375 vs a std 30-30 case, both fired measured in grs of water. I would appreciate this a great deal as I have 2 different non levergun 30-30's that could handle 65Kpsi

30-30 factory ammo fired in my Ackley chamber holds 48.7gr water, 375 Win brass holds 45.8gr, case weights are 134.8gr and 157.1gr, I held pressures to a QuickLoad predicted 60kpsi since that's the max pressure for the 375Win, I could probably get a little more out of it, but I thought that a 125gr spitzer at a little less than 2900fps was plenty good for deer, and afterall,  I do have three .308Wins and a couple .30-06s to use too!!

The 30-30AI is one of the better Ackley choices, there are only a few that show more improvement, the 6.5x55AI being one of them makes me think I should have gone with it instead of the parent cartridge!!  http://www.4-dproducts.com/ackleychart.php

Tim

[R.W.Dale]

30-30 brass fired in my chamber holds 48.7gr water, 375 Win brass holds 45.8gr, case weights are 134.8gr and 157.1gr

Just to clarify, are those numbers are for fully formed 30-30AI cases from 375win vs  30-30 fired from a standard chamber with no AI'ing

[quickdtoo]

The 30-30 case was a factory 150gr Rem round I shot in it, the other was twice fired, first fireformed with 29gr IMR3031, then reloaded and shot with full pressure loads.

Tim

[R.W.Dale]

The 30-30 case was a factory 150gr Rem round I shot in it,
Tim

Shot in your AI or one of your unaltered 30-30 handi's?