EDITED TITLE: Race relations in the South. 1860's versus today

[littlecanoe]

I didn't quite know how to title this post.  This morning I was thinking of a PM that I'd read concerning observations of race that one had observed as a child.  Of course, I started looking back at my child hood trying to get a picture of what I saw and understood.

My reason for raising this question is not to discuss race as it relates to the individual, I don't believe in race but that's a side discussion, but to discuss what you saw as you grew up and how that affected you.  Also, I'd like to consider our personal experiences in comparison to what some of the forum scholars have noted in their studies.

Again, my attempt is to try to determine if what we see in our southern communities backs up the hate issue that has become the historical view or if there is some other view that has been suppressed.  Granted, this is not a scientific objective view beyond what our circumstantial community view can bring to the discussion but can be beneficial in adding perspective.

[GRIMJIM]

This is coming from a Yankee but.........
I was brought up in one of the most racist cities in Illinois. Cicero.
I don't think I saw an actual black person until I was 6 except for on television, and that was out of town.
They didn't walk the streets or hang out at the bars. If they worked in a factory there, they got off and on the bus out in front of the place and left town.

My parents thought it was so cute the first time I used the "N" word.

I look back on that and really think it was messed up.

I have met in my life people of all colors that i did or didn't like and I try very hard not to instill any of that in my children.

[littlecanoe]

I grew up in central KY.  Small town of 3500.  Farming community.
I was born in 66.  I don't remember ever seeing segregated fountains or bathrooms.
Our county schools were segregated before most of the state. 

I wasn't around black kids until I went to school but was around an older fell who lived in my grandfathers community and help most of the farmers.  He seemed to be well accepted in that community. 

Grimjim,  not to explore the specifics of racism, but where did the segregation come from?  When you look back, what was the source.  Was it a cultural norm that was taught?

[Ga.windbreak]

lc I think it a great idea for a thread but in the context of the war era versus today, ok.

[littlecanoe]

Ga wb,
That's kinda where I wanted to go.  It's a nice spring board from the last myth post.

My idea of today is that which most of us have experienced on to present date 2008.  These are the things that bring a contextual feel to the discussion and add a marginal level of objectivity that is subject to our powers of observation.

[williamlayton]

Well, I have seen black folks hit with a hickory cane and knocked into the street, just because of his race.
I have been told, in front of the person I was talking too, you don't say yes ma'am to a N.
I was told after a football game, our N's are better than your N's.
I have witnessed a cup being taken away from one and stomped on the ground because that was the white man's cup.
Let's take it back too the era. Blacks were not allowed in town after sundown.
Now that is the context of segregation and racism that is not talked of, and, all but denied and it grew out of this era.
Were slaves given equal status as humans?
Blessings
 

[Graybeard]

Dunno where you grew up WL but that has given you such a narrow perspective on life that you seem to have come to the conclusion all the world was like your little corner of it. I got news fer ya. IT WAS NOT and it IS NOT.

[GRIMJIM]

I grew up in central KY.  Small town of 3500.  Farming community.
I was born in 66.  I don't remember ever seeing segregated fountains or bathrooms.
Our county schools were segregated before most of the state. 

I wasn't around black kids until I went to school but was around an older fell who lived in my grandfathers community and help most of the farmers.  He seemed to be well accepted in that community. 

Grimjim,  not to explore the specifics of racism, but where did the segregation come from?  When you look back, what was the source.  Was it a cultural norm that was taught?

As I said it was how I was raised. As for how the town originally became segregated? It was Al Capones stomping ground and I think they were kept out by force. Later all that was needed was the reputation. We had the midwest regional nazi headquarters a block from my house. Swastika stickers on the lightpoles. Marches and rallies in the public parks. Times definately were different.

[Ga.windbreak]

I was raised in Ga., Fla. and have lived in the South most of my life. Did I see the signs, of course. Were black people made to ride on the back of the bus, yes. Were there exceptions made, all the time. My mom had me give up my seat to a pregnant black lady. I ate alot of meals with my Uncle's work crew of mostly black men and we all ate together and shared what we had. I played with as many black kids as white kids and the only time we were not together was during school time. I've been to funerals of black people I've cared about and been asked to share my feelings about them at that time. I was honored to do so.

Just how do you interact with others and not become attached to them as fellow human beings? I was in the Military with Blacks and we covered eachothers backsides, trust me, you can't get any closer than that to someone else whatever their skin color or political persuasion.

[littlecanoe]

Good posts.  This was what I was looking for.

Hopefully the conversation will spur other memories and other's memories. 

Please, Jog you gray matter and think back to more examples.

[williamlayton]

I grew up in a territory filled with boys from Ga, Miss, La, Al. I have been too these areas and they acted the same way, talked the same, felt the same.
I agree that individual on individual many acted different. In a group of all the same they were different.
Show kindness, sure. Felt kindness because of equality, no.
All the jokes about stealing too much chain. All the hangings because of a smile at a white woman. Yes, these are true.
I am sure you disagree.
Blessings

[williamlayton]

Personal attacks are not permitted. You should take your comments to a PM or better yet keep them to yourself! Don't post them here! - Ga.windbreak



Blessings

[Dee]

 

[Graybeard]

Dunno about the rest but I'm tired of the BS responses from WL. I'm not gonna read anymore of them PERIOD. You're just too full of yourself WL. I can't put anyone on ignore but I'm ignoring any further posts from you on this forum.

[Dee]

As I said on another thread. We aren't discussing Civil War topics here. We're discussing WILLIAM! He likes the attention and is getting it. He has successfully derailed discussions, and has become THE TOPIC!

[williamlayton]

NO! Dee
I am discussing topics you folks wanted too discuss.
Blessings

[littlecanoe]

I like WL's input as it IS HIS even if I don't agree with it all the time.  I believe that all have posted views that are heart felt and firm and have arrived at their conclusions for many different reasons. 

I will not arbitrarily assume that those reasons are of lesser value than mine, even if I view them as being drawn from wrong conclusions or biased sources. 

As to vanity and pride, each of us will have to own those stripes.  The very fact that we are discussing and arguing with strangers from an assumed position of knowledge puts each of us in that category.  After all, we are expressing opinion based upon our perception of facts.

Having said that, lets keep issues that arise in other forums in other forums.  Those discussions don't belong here and they are what they are.  Someone has to be wrong in each of the discussions and I don't want to be a part of a discussion that hangs the one dissenter for no other reason than majority opinion.

An additional "having said that" would be to WL.  WL and I know where each other stand and I believe share respect for each other.  For my part I'd like to see his strong opinion, which is valuable, backed up with some references since that is the form that these discussions have taken.  His arguments aren't less valid because he doesn't do so but his case would be all the stronger by taking that approach. 

Especially in this particular discussion, personal experience and observation IS the OBJECTIVITY that we are looking for so WL is right on track and no footnotes required.

PS I need to document my statements when that is the pattern of discussion and will either do so or try to note my observations as "My Opinion". 

PPS  I'm more than a little bothered that personal likes or dislikes are coming in to this and other discussions. 

[Ga.windbreak]

Alright guys Dee is right, yet again, we have two threads which were on the subject of slavery that have now become wl feel good threads. I am a party to it too, I know, but lets get back on topic. 

[williamlayton]

From the antebellum South came these feelings and conclusions.
Laws, seperate for blacks were designed too keep the line. Defined as less than equal too a white man should not bring that much of a backlash for need of Ibids.
These laws made harsher punishment for offenses for these blacks than whites.
Lynchings were a favorite mode too keep blacks in line.
It is not hard too see that the blacks of this era and up through the 50's made resintment of whites an easy task.
Too deny that bigotry and segregation is/was, is as appaling as too deny that a man walked on the mooon. Yes, I know a few in this mode of denial.
So, race relations in the South and also in the North were not rosy between these two groups.
I had the opportunity too become fast friends with a man who attended SWT in the 60's. His honesty with me, was just a further notch in seeing things as they were not as pretended.
We worked together and he was not allowed too work a certain area of Houston because of its know KKK and those feelings.
He told me he would not even drive through this town because of being stopped by the police.
He held no great love for the white man because of treatment as a child growing up and because of the general treatment of his people. His great effort was too bring his children up in a climate of trust. Trust was not a great companion as a child.
He was killed in a car wreck at a young age.
I was taught as a child that the brain of the black was smaller than that of a white and his capacity for intelligence limited because of this.
If one suceeded in life it was because he had white blood in his ancestry.
I have a friend in Baton Rouge that can tell you stories of keeping the N's in line by various means of murder and dissappearance. You know, the old stories, well the boy just tried too swim the river with too much stolen chain.
It was a hanging offence to be accused of flirting with a white girl.
Alabama lynched a black man because he and a white woman eloped.
If they were nice too your face does that mean they were being honest or just cautious?
Blessings

[littlecanoe]

The different responses leads me to ask the following, "Were there pockets, areas in the south where relations were violent and areas where relations were peaceful"?

I'm too young to have taken notice being born in 66. 

[Graybeard]

The different responses leads me to ask the following, "Were there pockets, areas in the south where relations were violent and areas where relations were peaceful"?

I'm too young to have taken notice being born in 66. 

Obviously so based on the responses of WL whose examples are so far off base from what I lived and grew up with in Alabama that I have to wonder if he was on the same planet as me or what. But again it's easy to speak of such events when no references are given to back up such. We can either accept it as gospel cuz he says it or ignore it since no evidence is offered and it differs 180 degrees from what most of us witnessed in the south at the same time frame. I think I know a bit better what went on in Alabama than someone raised in Texas.

[Ga.windbreak]

The different responses leads me to ask the following, "Were there pockets, areas in the south where relations were violent and areas where relations were peaceful"?

I'm too young to have taken notice being born in 66. 

Sorry lc but you will have to chose who you want to believe. The group as a whole or one voice who says he knows it all. Your choice; facts or an opinion?

See ya.

[littlecanoe]

GB and Ga wb,

Don't abandon me now fella's!  LOL.  I'm not choosing who to believe just looking for first hand experiences.

This is the very reason that I started this thread.  I want to flesh this out and see what reality is.  This isn't about you guys personalities.  I want to know your experiences.  I'll be at a family Christmas gathering tomorrow evening.  I really want to dig around and see if any of the older members of my family remember things in this area that are "bad" and try to gauge what they saw.

[Ga.windbreak]

lc, if you want to look for bad, its there, and you can find it. If you want to look for good its there also and there is much more of it IMHO.

The Indians have a saying "There is your truth, my truth, and the true truth." You can curse the darkness or light a candle, its up to you.

There are always people quick to point out all the bad, some glory in the fact that others fail, usually because of their own failure. There is no normal life, there is only life, your measuring stick should be not how much money you make but how many/few you help along the way. Thats my opinion and I'm sticking to it!!

[Dee]

This is a true statement. I can take lc to several places in New Orleans I go to weekly and the blacks there had just as soon slit a white throat as look at him. I can take him to several other places in New Orleans where he will be treated very very well.
There is good in every race, and bad. If the government would stay out of every one's personal lives, and busy themselves equipping our armies, building our roads, and other wise NOT WASTING our tax dollar with endless programs that make invalid-es out of different races, the country would be much better off. But, alas, then the people would realize how much government we don't need, and the scoundrels would then have to go back home and find a real job if anyone would hire them.
lc, I am almost 60, and have worked the best parts of town as a law enforcement officer, and the worst parts. I have been treated, and seen treated folks in the best part of town the worst, and the best in the worst, if I did not confuse you.
You ask a question in this thread that is somewhat loaded. Some here will share their experiences, and some, as you have seen, and may not yet realize, will attempt to claim moral superiority. Recognizing the difference is the key. I am still waiting to see if you can, and hope that you do. You will be better off for it. I will give you a quote that is mine, and not something that I read. My children know it well I think, and now so you do. The meaning of it is the key.

You may put a collar on a coyote and name him Spot. But do not put him in charge of the sheep. .
Dan, aka Dee

[squirrellluck]

My 2 cents worth. I grew up in Louisiana and lived in Indiana for 16 and here's what I know from my experience. Was there racism in the south when I grew up? Yes but more so among the young that had not been through the things the older generation had plus the stirring of the pot from folks that had no grasp of the southern life or culture. That being said I saw more racism in the north by far than in the south. I remember as a child being corrected for not using mister to the black men my grandfather worked with. I also remember being called Mr. Scott by these same men out of respect for my grandfather.  I was raised as my father and his before him. Same beliefs and principals so I find it hard to believe that the hate was brought on by anything other than people with their own interest at heart. oops more than 2cents

[williamlayton]

Take a look at the laws used in the South too keep folks from voting.
It was not until 1965 that these laws were made illegal.
There were counties in Alabama that had no blacks vote in any election from 1880 thru 1960's. this was due to the harshness of voting regulations and intimidation.
In Texas a man could be disqualified from voting by a secret committee, as he could be in Alabama.
Lord, folks, this is not about me. you are blinded. This is about race relations in the South.
If there was good race relations, why all the stir in the 60's.
Now don't say it was outsiders doing the stirring. I was there and witnessed.
There were three blacks lynched. A reporter from Atlanta was there and a local asked what all the fuss was about it was just three N's.
The first time I registered too vote there was a literacy test. I was told I did not need too do it as it was only for black folks.
Blessings

[williamlayton]

With respects too ya'll and GB I broke a promise.
I apologize.
I wll not read or respond here again.
Blessings
Bill Close

PS Dee. I would respond too your face all I have said here.
Blessings
Bill Close

[Ga.windbreak]

With all due respect lc it has been pointed out to me, rightfully so, that this is a carbon copy of the other thread on race relations.

I don't want to lock this thread but I feel it would be better to have this all in one thread and SBG's was started first. Lets use it,ok?.

[littlecanoe]

Consider it done.  I wanted to explore more modern views but that can be easily absorbed in the other thread.

I'm OK with locking this thread.