Author Topic: what size groups do the best shooters do at 1000 yards? (Read 2601 times)

buckslayer · « **on:** December 23, 2008, 03:19:23 PM »

what is a good group for the tippy top shooters shooting at 1000 yards? im talking about wibledon cup shooters, the best of the best. i really have no idea what they can do at 1000.

Cement Man · « **Reply #1 on:** December 24, 2008, 07:20:15 AM »

This is an excerpt from Rifleshooter magazine in an article about Nightforce scopes............... ummm, that there is some shootin' for sure!

Military, police and long-range target applications are Nightforce's chosen markets. To give you an idea of how good these scopes are at their jobs, the current world record for a 1,000-yard ten-shot group, 3.835 inches, was shot by Cody Finch with a Nightforce-equipped scope. Nightforce shooters have won the Wimbledon Cup the last two years, and its scopes have set more records in long-range benchrest than any other make.

buckslayer · « **Reply #2 on:** December 24, 2008, 07:37:22 AM »

10 shots, 3 inches? id say 80% of "deer hunters" cant do that at 100....now THAT is shootin.

Cement Man · « **Reply #3 on:** December 24, 2008, 08:49:40 AM »

Yup, and that is a 10-shot group!

apache235 · « **Reply #4 on:** January 02, 2009, 03:33:22 PM »

C'mon, almost 4 inches. This guy was shooting a little over 1/3 MOA at about 5/8 of a mile.

slim rem 7 · « **Reply #5 on:** January 02, 2009, 05:01:48 PM »

as far as deer hunters go .. id say that would be in the top 1 percent.. it is a world record..

Bart Solo · « **Reply #6 on:** January 02, 2009, 05:13:07 PM »

Perfect optics, perfect gun, perfect ammunition, perfect rest, no wind, years of experience. Yep, upper 1% OK, if there are only 100 deer hunters in the world.

That kind of magnificent shooting is beyond just about everybody on the planet.

kansas45 · « **Reply #7 on:** January 04, 2009, 04:03:17 AM »

I went to Tulsa & watched two 1000yd matches at Red Castle Gun Club this past summer. They have two of those a year. It's an amazing thing to witness. Those 6' targets look 1/2 postage stamp to the naked eye at that distance. Many different calibers & rifles in use. Mostly Night Force & U.S. Optics for scopes. Some guy's were shooting AR's with iron sights! I know I couldn't do it.

teddy12b · « **Reply #8 on:** January 04, 2009, 04:48:38 AM »

About a year ago I became a member at a range where you can shoot out to 1000 yards. This range has completely turned my shooting around, because I used to look at 300 yards as a long shot. I always figure that if your gun shoots 1/2" at 100, it should shoot 5" at 1000 if you judge the wind perfectly (I can't).

There are two kinds of guys who can shoot that far. The first type are guys like me who do it just for giggles and will likely have to walk their rounds into the target and then only shoot at the biggest of targets at that distance. Just about anyone can do that. Then there are the other guys who can nail the target on their first shot. Those are the guys you see with $3000 minimum rifle & scope combo's. Lots of these guys use nightforce.

I've seen guys put several rounds into a large coffee can sized group at 1000 yards and I was very impressed and humbled.

Old Fart · « **Reply #9 on:** January 09, 2009, 09:48:52 AM »

I don't want to walk that far to see how I actually did.

dw06 · « **Reply #10 on:** January 09, 2009, 11:17:04 AM »

Quote from: Old Fart on January 09, 2009, 09:48:52 AM

I don't want to walk that far to see how I actually did.

I wouldn't really want to see how I did, I mean why embarrass myself

Never tried it but don't think I can do that good at half the distance

Varmint Hunter · « **Reply #11 on:** January 10, 2009, 11:40:25 AM »

Here is my best long range group. Probably couldn't do it again if I had to.
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/7247600yd_group2.JPG[/img]]

smokey66 · « **Reply #12 on:** January 11, 2009, 09:42:26 AM »

VH, that's damn fine shooting.

Zachary · « **Reply #13 on:** January 12, 2009, 01:56:14 PM »

Funny how some of us bring up deer hunting in this post! lol. Even if such sharp shooters can shoot 4" groups at 1,000 yards, no "deer cartridge" would have enough energy to humanely harvest a deer at that range. I'll admit that I wish I could shoot that accurately that far at targets, but unless I am shooting a .50 BMG or relatively similar round (and unless I can shoot such a cannon accurately - which I know that I can't) I wouldn't even think of taking a shot at a deer. Come to think of it, even if I could shoot such a long range gun that accurately, I still don't think that I would want to harvest a deer with it at 1,000 yards....I'm not sure that it is sporting to knock off a trophy buck (or doe) that far yonder!

Zachary

mechanic · « **Reply #14 on:** January 12, 2009, 02:55:26 PM »

Quote from: Zachary on January 12, 2009, 01:56:14 PM

Funny how some of us bring up deer hunting in this post! lol. Even if such sharp shooters can shoot 4" groups at 1,000 yards, no "deer cartridge" would have enough energy to humanely harvest a deer at that range. I'll admit that I wish I could shoot that accurately that far at targets, but unless I am shooting a .50 BMG or relatively similar round (and unless I can shoot such a cannon accurately - which I know that I can't) I wouldn't even think of taking a shot at a deer. Come to think of it, even if I could shoot such a long range gun that accurately, I still don't think that I would want to harvest a deer with it at 1,000 yards....I'm not sure that it is sporting to knock off a trophy buck (or doe) that far yonder!

Zachary

Zachary, believe it or not, there was a test done not too long ago with a Sharps rifle and black powder loads. At 1000 yds. it still had the muzzle energy of a 45 acp.

Not that that would help me. I can't see 1000 yards, and even in the best of conditions won't try a shot over 200. But its nice to know when I'm out with my 45-70 I have the potential anyway.

Ben

teddy12b · « **Reply #15 on:** January 13, 2009, 02:29:08 AM »

I think you'd be surprised how much energy even a 30-06 has left at 1000 yards. I recently was playing with my sierra bullet software and by changing the bullet from a 168gr matchking to a 200gr gameking I added an extra couple hundred yards where it still had 1000 pounds of energy. I'll try to look that up and show you guys, but I was amazed.

Zachary · « **Reply #16 on:** January 13, 2009, 10:19:14 AM »

Here are Federal's published energy numbers for the .30-06 with 180 grain Nosler Accubond:

Load # Cartridge Muzzle 100 200 300 400 500
P3006A1 30-06 Spring. (7.62x63mm) 2913 2547 2217 1922 1658 1423

At 500 yards, it shows 1,420 ft.lbs of energy. The acceptable minimum energy established by the "industry" (whatever that really is) for harvesting a deer is 1,000, so this particular .30-06 load that has 1,420 is well above the "minimum." (For the record, I am not necessarily advocating the merits of the 1,000 energy number, but I'm using it as a reference since many other - supposedly more experienced - hunters, go by this number.)

Now, if this Accubond load hits 1,423 at 500 yards, then I seriously doubt that it will reach 1,000+ energy at 1,000 yards. You are right, a ballistic software program should give more accurate numbers, but I would imagine that this load at 1,000 yards would have less than 500 pounds of energy. While that should be certainly enough to knock down steel plates (and certainly punch through paper) it would fall way short of the 1,000 energy number.

On the other hand, if someone is shooting a .300 Rem Ultra Mag, then I guess that the 180 grain bullet could maintain about 1,000 ft. pounds (or more) at 1,000 yards, but a .300 Ultra Mag isn't exactly a standard deer hunting cartridge.

Again, I don't have the benefit of a ballistic software program, but I just can't see how a standard .30-06 can still reach a minimum of 1,000 pounds of energy at 1,000 yards with "deer hunting" bullets.

BTW, for what it's worth, I have also understood that the "magic" minimum number of energy for an elk is 2,000 pounds. I believe that the KO (I think that is what it is called) is a better formula to use because it also takes into consideration the diameter of the bullet. Otherwise, in using just the 1,000 number for deer, people could be mislead into thinking that shooting a deer with a .222 or .223 Remington at close range is just fine. But while I know that some people can, and do, harvest deer relatively humanely with such little loads, they leave much room for error and only the most skillful of shooters, and hunters that have enough patience to take the perfect shot under ideal conditions, should attempt such shots.

Zachary

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #17 on:** January 13, 2009, 11:49:59 AM »

I do not know but I do know that the farther out you go the bigger the group.
even if you were able to bolt the rifle down, and use match ammo never touched by human hands, and shoot in a vaccume tube, you will not get real tight groups at 1000 yards.
While this will give you one hole at 100 yards the difference and the imperfections in the bullet, the case, the powder ( is it 73 grains or 73.0002 grains?), and the primer ( does it have .003 grams of FM or .0031G of FM) will move that bullet around at 200 yards let alone 1,000. It explains why the 1,000 yard guys have their bullets made on a laith rather than cast that leaves imperfections in the bullet.

teddy12b · « **Reply #18 on:** January 13, 2009, 09:54:19 PM »

Here is the information I was referencing from the Sierra software. I copied all this hoping to use it for my own reference in finding the best load for my 30-06. I don't think it's a big deal, but after looking at this kind of information I'm going to start trying to use the heaviest bullet that shoots well in my rifle.
The bullet drop is pretty comparable, but the heavier bullets have more energy downrange and do better in the wind. This is all from Sierra software.

168gr MatchKing @ 2600 FPS
RANGE   VELOCITY ENERGY   DROP (")   DROP MOA
0   2600   2521.3   -1.6   0
50   2506.4   2343   0.98   1.9
100   2414.6   2174.5   2.19   2.1
150   2324.7   2015.6   1.9   1.2
200   2236.7   1865.9   0   0
250   2150.5   1724.9   -3.63   -1.4
300   2064.5   1589.6   -9.15   -2.9
350   1977.8   1459   -16.7   -4.6
400   1893.4   1337.1   -26.48   -6.3
450   1811.3   1223.6   -38.68   -8.2
500   1731.7   1118.5   -53.53   -10.2
550   1654.8   1021.4   -71.28   -12.4
600   1580   931.1   -92.2   -14.7
650   1505.9   845.8   -116.61   -17.1
700   1435.5   768.6   -144.85   -19.8
750   1369.2   699.2   -177.32   -22.6
800   1307.2   637.3   -214.42   -25.6
850   1250   582.8   -256.6   -28.8
900   1198.1   535.3   -304.36   -32.3
950   1151.6   494.6   -358.17   -36
1000   1110.6   460   -418.53   -40


190gr MatchKing @ 2600 FPS
RANGE   VELOCITY ENERGY   DROP (")   DROP MOA
0   2600   2851.5   -1.5   0
50   2517.4   2673.2   1.03   2
100   2436.2   2503.6   2.18   2.1
150   2356.6   2342.5   1.87   1.2
200   2278.4   2189.6   0   0
250   2201.6   2044.6   -3.55   -1.4
300   2126.3   1907   -8.89   -2.8
350   2051.8   1775.7   -16.15   -4.4
400   1978.4   1651   -25.48   -6.1
450   1906.6   1533.3   -37.04   -7.9
500   1836.5   1422.7   -50.98   -9.7
550   1768.2   1318.8   -67.5   -11.7
600   1701.7   1221.5   -86.8   -13.8
650   1637.3   1130.8   -109.11   -16
700   1574.5   1045.8   -134.66   -18.4
750   1513.4   966.1   -163.72   -20.8
800   1454.7   892.7   -196.58   -23.5
850   1398.8   825.3   -233.54   -26.2
900   1345.7   763.9   -274.96   -29.2
950   1295.7   708.2   -321.18   -32.3
1000   1249.1   658.2   -372.58   -35.6


200gr GameKing @ 2600 FPS
RANGE   VELOCITY ENERGY   DROP (")   DROP MOA
0   2600   3001.5   -1.6   0
50   2524   2828.7   0.93   1.8
100   2449.2   2663.6   2.1   2
150   2375.7   2506   1.82   1.2
200   2303.4   2355.9   0   0
250   2232.8   2213.5   -3.46   -1.3
300   2163.3   2077.9   -8.66   -2.8
350   2095   1948.9   -15.72   -4.3
400   2028.1   1826.2   -24.75   -5.9
450   1962.4   1709.8   -35.9   -7.6
500   1898   1599.5   -49.31   -9.4
550   1835.5   1495.9   -65.13   -11.3
600   1774.4   1398.1   -83.53   -13.3
650   1714.9   1305.8   -104.68   -15.4
700   1656.9   1218.9   -128.8   -17.6
750   1600.5   1137.4   -156.08   -19.9
800   1545.9   1061.1   -186.75   -22.3
850   1493.2   990   -221.06   -24.8
900   1442.4   923.8   -259.27   -27.5
950   1393.7   862.5   -301.66   -30.3
1000   1347.3   805.9   -348.53   -33.3

220gr MatchKing @ 2400 FPS
RANGE   VELOCITY   ENERGY   DROP (")   DROP MOA
0   2400   2813.3   -1.5   0
50   2351.2   2700   1.3   2.5
100   2302.9   2590.3   2.53   2.4
150   2255.3   2484.2   2.12   1.3
200   2208.1   2381.4   0   0
250   2161.5   2281.9   -3.9   -1.5
300   2115.5   2185.7   -9.65   -3.1
350   2069.7   2092.2   -17.35   -4.7
400   2024.4   2001.7   -27.07   -6.5
450   1979.8   1914.3   -38.9   -8.3
500   1935.7   1830   -52.96   -10.1
550   1892.2   1748.8   -69.33   -12
600   1849.4   1670.5   -88.13   -14
650   1807.2   1595.1   -109.46   -16.1
700   1765.7   1522.7   -133.45   -18.2
750   1724.8   1453.1   -160.23   -20.4
800   1684.4   1385.7   -189.93   -22.7
850   1644   1320.1   -222.69   -25
900   1604.5   1257.3   -258.66   -27.4
950   1565.8   1197.4   -298   -30
1000   1528   1140.3   -340.89   -32.6

Zachary · « **Reply #19 on:** January 14, 2009, 03:08:39 AM »

Thanks for the info Teddy, good post! That certainly helps us look at some accurate numbers. In using the 180 grain Nosler Accubond in my earlier post as an example, it looks like my estimated guess of about 500 pounds of energy at 1,000 yards was pretty close given that the 168 Matchking has less energy at only 460! Also, for comparative purposes, although the 190 grain Matchking is 10 grains heavier, it still only produces 658 pounds at 1,000 yards. Interestingly, the 220 grainer produces 1,140 pounds of energy! That is kinda surprising to me. Then again, its 220 grains, which is very, very heavy for a .30-06 - is certainly the heaviest commercially loaded bullet.

BTW, speaking of Matchking bullets earlier, and not necessarily to be off topic, Sierra has confirmed to me that the Match King bullets are NOT intended for deer hunting. That's why they have the Game King series. The Match Kings are generally used for competition shooting. That having been said, I am aware that some people do in fact use the Match Kings on deer, and I have been told that they generally perform like Nosler's Ballistic tip - expanding very rapidly and, if shot at closer ranges, the bullet actually disintegrates, thus causing a very shallow wound channel.

Zachary

teddy12b · « **Reply #20 on:** January 14, 2009, 03:38:54 AM »

I'd completely agree about not using the matchkings for hunting. If I had to use them in a pinch I would, but I'd make darn sure I got behind the shoulder instead of in front of it. I'm actually more interested in the 200gr gamekings because they can be used for both hunting and target shooting in theory (I haven't tested them for accuracy yet).

I measured some groups this morning from last weekends trip to the range where I tested the 190gr matchking and saw a couple groups of less than 1/2" 5 round groups. Those matchkings sure do shoot well, but if I shouldn't hunt with them why practice with them.

I have a hard time relating to all these numbers so I try to compare them to a 30-30 just so I get a better understanding of what I have.

This is from Remington's website for a 30-30 using 170gr SP ammo.

Energy (ft-lbs)
Muzzle 100 200 300 400 500
1827 1355 989 720 535 425

Zachary · « **Reply #21 on:** January 14, 2009, 04:13:55 PM »

I don't know if you know this, but before Sierra came out with the "Game Kings," their bullets (which were loaded in Federal ammo) were just called Sierra Boat Tails. Then, they came out and differentiated between the Game Kings (for hunting) and Match Kings (for target shooting). As for the Game Kings/Original Sierra Boat-Tails, let me tell you that these bullets are consistently VERY accurate. They are not bonded bullets or anything like that (essentially just conventional bullets, just with good aerodynamics and a boat-tail), but I have seen them do a good job of expanding and penetrating in deer. I highly recommend them. Just make sure that you don't use them on big hogs on shoulder-shots because you'll just tickle them! lol

Zachary

teddy12b · « **Reply #22 on:** January 15, 2009, 01:57:12 AM »

I was thinking that I might eventually use these for black bear also? I still have about 150 rounds of 220gr pro-hunters loaded up from the last hunt, but I was thinking that after those got used up I'd start using the 200gr gamekings. I'd like to get a single load to do just about anything.

I've only read good reviews of the 200gr gamekings on Midway and assumed if nothing else they'd be better than a factory 180gr SP just because of the extra weight.