How to attach sabot?

[Victor3]

ratpatrol

please open an new post in the subject how to build your own ball mold
I suppose many here would like to know

 That would be instructive. It's fairly easy to make any size round pocket using a flycutter and rotary table on a mill. I'm getting the stuff together to make a mould this way when I have time.

[Cannoneer]

The only practical experience I've ever had with saboted ammunition has been with modern inline muzzleloaders, so I'll take everyone elses word that sabots increase the accuracy of larger projectiles in smoothbore guns, but from a strictly historical standpoint, the only improvement mentioned in ordnance literature is in the increased speed of loading, and subsequent faster rates of fire for smoothbore cannon utilizing fixed ammunition. This is one of the main reasons that many artillerymen in the Civil War considered the 12-pounder Napoleon gun-howitzer the ideal weapon for field use, seeing as the rifled pieces, which required "semifixed" rounds with separate powder bags took longer to load.

[Evil Dog]

Have been doing a little more trial and error experimenting.  For my golfball bore half scale Napoleon I've found that the "plug" cut by a 1 7/8" hole saw is just slightly too large.  I had been cutting them out of 1/2" plywood (the really good birch faced stuff) and gluing 2 of them together.  One major problem with that was that quite often a piece of one of the "plys" would drop out leaving a sizeable void in the sabot... probably wouldn't make any difference but didn't like it.  So started cutting them out of 1 x 6 pine... can get a whole bunch of plugs from a 4' long piece.  Doesn't cost nearly as much as that quality plywood and don't have to worry about pieces of it coming loose.  The hole saw that I use for cutting the plugs leaves a pilot hole in the center that will just fit a #10 bolt.  Makes it real easy to run a bolt through the center to keep 2 or more pieces aligned when they are glued and clamped together.  After the glue dries overnight I can remove the bolt and then use the same hole to mount the plug on a small lathe to reduce down to a diameter that will just slide through my bore gauge.

2 pieces of the pine plugs glued together makes a sabot just about 1 caliber long... probably too long compared to pictures of original Civil War rounds.  Will have to try some single thickness sabots in addition to the double thickness ones that I have been making.  I've been using a 1 1/8" spade bit to form a recess for the ball to set in.  Once again, compared to the vintage Civil War rounds I could probably use a 1 1/4" bit and seat the ball a bit deeper.  The Civil War rounds used an iron or tin strap to secure the ball to the sabot.  I tried both masking and electrical tape but even a single thickness of either would prevent the completed round from sliding down my bore gauge.

One of my theories is that if the sabot is permanently secured to the ball it would eliminate the variable of exactly when and how the sabot releases from the ball after leaving the muzzle.  A #10 sheet metal screw up through the sabot and into the ball seemed a logical solution.  In reality though drilling a pilot hole in the cast wheelweight ball proved to be a problem... it wouldn't always be centered and straight even though I was doing it on a drill press.  If the pilot hole was headed anywhere other than to the exact center of the ball it would cause the ball to be somewhat canted when affixed to the sabot and then would NOT slide down the bore gauge.  So........ a bead of silicone sealer should serve the same purpose and not have the canting problem.

It is probably going to be another week or more before I can get out for any live fire to find out what is going to actually work.  The range available to me is limited to 100 yards.  I would be absolutely thrilled to find a combination that would stay within a 12" circle at that range.

Another consideration is firing golfballs rather than 1 pound fishing weights.  Would like to hear from anyone that has experience actually firing golfballs... did they normally go straight or have a tendency to curve?

[Double D]

Make drill jig for the ball.

[GGaskill]

I shoot golf balls from a much shorter barrel, a one third scale mountain howitzer barrel about a foot long, and the balls hook and slice and all of those other things that the golfers swear about.  I need to do something to impart a consistent spin to the ball as it exits the barrel.

[Cat Whisperer]

I shoot golf balls from a much shorter barrel, a one third scale mountain howitzer barrel about a foot long, and the balls hook and slice and all of those other things that the golfers swear about.  I need to do something to impart a consistent spin to the ball as it exits the barrel.

Hmmm.  Maybe it was the way that I gripped the barrel (hand gonne) - maybe my stance - maybe followthrough ?

[Terry C.]

I tried both masking and electrical tape but even a single thickness of either would prevent the completed round from sliding down my bore gauge.

I use ¾" wide masking tape, two pieces in a cross pattern, to secure my balls directly to my foil packet when loading the ¼-scale 12-pounder. This is done to prevent rollout, not as an attempt to increase accuracy.

I have more than enough windage to allow for the tape, but it never occurred to me to pass the assembled round through the bore gauge. Strapping the balls to the packet is something I do immediately before loading, the rounds aren't assembled ahead of time. The balls and packets have already been gauged.

The ball gauge I use (a 1" copper pipe coupler) is about halfway between the nominal ball size and the actual bore diameter, so anything that passes the gauge test will easily fit into the bore.

I'm going to go make a round and measure it with the gauge.


Ah'll be bahk...

[Terry C.]

I assembled one of my rounds and checked it. The tape and ball both pass through the ball gauge. It's snug, but not tight.








I use the masking tape because I have to punch through it when I prime the gun. And masking tape is (at least I think it is) biodegradable, whereas electrical tape is not.

Doesn't really help with sabot design, but maybe it'll help with attachment. IMO, if you can't fit a strip of masking tape through the gauge with the sabot, you need to cut the sabot smaller.  I believe that the masking tape will tear pretty quick subjected to the stress of flight.

[Artilleryman]

It is a good idea to pass it through a gage.  I have run across a couple of projectiles that rolled through the gage but hung up with the tape on them.  I load the round so that the tape is not under the vent, or at least I try to.

[RocklockI]

The only practical experience I've ever had with saboted ammunition has been with modern inline muzzleloaders, so I'll take everyone elses word that sabots increase the accuracy of larger projectiles in smoothbore guns, but from a strictly historical standpoint, the only improvement mentioned in ordnance literature is in the increased speed of loading, and subsequent faster rates of fire for smoothbore cannon utilizing fixed ammunition. This is one of the main reasons that many artillerymen in the Civil War considered the 12-pounder Napoleon gun-howitzer the ideal weapon for field use, seeing as the rifled pieces, which required "semifixed" rounds with separate powder bags took longer to load.

I agree ,as from the old saboted balls I've seen that have a tin strap around them 2x @90% secured with little brad type nails .

Admitedly I am no expert , but I remember going to "some museums" in Donaldson/Nashville when I was a kid . It may have been the Parthenon .

There were stands of quilted grapeshot that looked HUGE at the time @ 1.70"  balls w/a huge bolt top to bottom . They had wood tops and bottoms , I could not believe how such a "thing" was supposed to seperate and scatter .

I have a hard time believing that anyone could have forseen getting a three way win with sabots , convenience , speed  AND accuracy . That was achieved w/Mini Ball in small arms , but I never saw it as anything other than to tie a powderbag to on one end and strap a thin piece of tin secured w/ small nails on the other .

I understand how a saboted ball "designed" to stay together may help accuracy like a Foster slug , but I don't think that was part of the purpose.

It seems to me that to "expect" the sabots not to be blown to ....smitherines is silly . With a 1.5 to 3lb charge of powder ,sabot assy's built as they were would come apart ...with vigor . JMHO and I could be wrong .


 

[seacoastartillery]

     When we went shooting two days ago, RocklockI, Gary, brought his new 1/3 scale Confederate smoothbore Parrott made by Dominick along to mainly find out if accurately made sabots could help with accuracy.  They did!  Although more accuracy methods need to be tried,
he improved a lot over the previous shoot where one or two hits on the target at 60 yards were the results of about ten fired.  That was with steel shot taped over powder.  This time we used the same size steel solid shot, Gary's carefully made ball dia. powder charges, and  Mikes carefully turned poplar sabots which were .020" under the bore size which is 1.750" and 1.25" long.  Epoxy glue held everything together.  Accuracy improved about 700%.  The photo captions reveal the details. 

Regards,

Tracy and Mike


The solid shot "fixed round" is at the left next to the longer canister round.  The shot dia. is 1.68"




Gary loads the fixed round of solid shot into the tube using the safety rammer.




3 GB shots above target paper.  2 hits and a sabot hit on upper right edged of target paper.  All sabots remains whole when shooting GBs.
group size unknown, with one missing ball, but AT LEAST 16 inches at 75 feet range.  In the target paper we have an 8.5" group where the steel solid shot hit.  One sabot, or about 1/2 of one sabot hit adjacent to the shot hit at 5 o'clock.  All sabots broke when shooting the steel shot.  Powder charge was the same as the GB rounds, 400 grains BP.  Seemed to be enough, with a nice Crack! sound and velocity.




The higher velocity from a more complete burn and much more weight, 11.32 oz, provided cleaner holes in the target than the GBs and very long grooves in the prairie.  The one on the right is 16 feet and the other one, 11 feet.  We never noticed these grooves with our Parrott or Brooke bolts.  They usually gouge out an 18 in. long by 3 in. wide divot about 2 or 3 times as deep as the half a ball depth of the round shot grooves.

[Randell]

Has anyone done additional work on this idea. I am going to give it a try.
Thanks